Nintendo, more than "casual"

[ToastiestZombie]

I think this is derailing the thread though. Its about Nintendo and its lack of transition to anything more than family friendly sequels that don't deviate too much from the previous lest they lose money. Imagine if they made a really really bad Zelda game, it would probably hurt them a LOT in the wallet. Sadly, I think they need to take a risk with their IPs because a lot of people are sick of Mario Kart 190819402, Mario Sports ________, Super Mario Ultra Deluxe Brothers 39102, and maybe another reskin of Zelda or Donkey Kong thrown in for good measure. They aren't bad games, but Nintendo isn't grasping the concept of "diversity". You can't run a system on ONLY E-T rated games. ZombiU could be a good game, but are any more M rated games going to follow it that are exclusive to the console? Remember Nintendo's drought of game's for the Wii? After the launch titles it took them till the end of the Wii's life cycle to release Skyward Sword, DK, Kirby's Epic Yarn, and all that.

They need to be consistent. Not yearly installments of the latest franchises, but just something ELSE. ZombiU and a few third party titles still isn't warranting the sale of another 250 dollar soon-to-be-dated console.

I kinda take exception to the 're-skins' thing, I can tell the difference on sight between pretty much any Zelda or Mario game from the content not just the graphics, which is more than can be said for CoD or Gears. They have tried branching with the IPs before too, Wind Waker was a risk and while it was STILL awesome they went back to Twilight Princess being more traditional to try and help sales :-/.

Wii did have a serious game-drought but after the rainfall it got a lot better. Also No More Heros.

Yeah, I hate it when people say Nintendo just reskin their games, well except for the New Super Mario Bros games but really they're just classic platformer fun and you can't do much else with it.

Anyway, look at this screenshot from Twilight Princess:

Spoiler

Then look at this one from Skyward Sword:

Spoiler

Two games from the same console cycle, in the same franchise and look at how much difference there is. Nintendo sure don't reskin their games, unless of course it's a direct sequel (by direct sequel I mean one with a 2 at the end!)

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

(Are you noticing a bit of trend here?)

Ah yes, the "no true hardcore" fallacy

Nintendo does have problems. They very blatantly favor their Japanese audience over any other, they seem deathly afraid of the M rating, and if they didn't make something popular, they'll usually be the last one to implement that something.

They also hand-hold at a level even 5 year old me would be insulted by. Again, not brought up as often.

I dare you, go play Super Mario Galaxy 2, Super Mario Sunshine, the old Legend of Zeldas and Metroid then come back and tell me Nintendo holds your hands.

Galaxy 2 was basically, "Here's the controls for all the new stuff! Now lets put you in a level with fire traps, duplicating insta death marios that follow you and giant boulders that'll crush you any minute! And you have to collect 300 purple coins whilst avoiding all of these things in only 3 minutes! Good Luck ************!"

Yeah I always smile when people say that Nintendo games are easy. They may look cute but underneath they are pure evil. Much like cats.

 

[Meight08]

Nintendo does have problems. They very blatantly favor their Japanese audience over any other, they seem deathly afraid of the M rating, and if they didn't make something popular, they'll usually be the last one to implement that something.

But those points never get brought up. Maybe the last one every now and then. But almost every other time it's how Nintendo "BETRAYED HARDCORES!" and "STARTED THE CASUAL CRAZE!" and "*Parrot Squawk* GIMMICK GIMMICK GIMMICK *Squawk!*", all of which are total bullshit.

A big problem with gamer in general is that the mentality seems to be "if it doesn't cater to me, it objectively sucks!".

Plus some of the counter-arguments I hear when I try to defend the Wii are utterly retarded.

Hardcore: Nintendo only makes Mario, Zelda and Pokemon!
Me: Well, on the Wii we also had Punch Out, Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn, two Kirby games, Metroid Prime 3, Smash Bros Brawl and Wario Land Shake It, Animal Crossing and such. Plenty of other lesser-used titles got a chance in the spotlight.
Hardcore: Well they aren't as popular or successful so they don't count.

Hardcore: Nintendo doesn't make any new IPs anymore!
Me: Well, since the Gamecube there was Pikmin, Brain Age, Nintendogs, Warioware, and Animal Crossing and Fire Emblem for folks in North America.
Hardcore: Well they didn't make anything for the Wii.
Me: Well they did the Mii games
Hardcore: That kiddy-casual shit doesn't count!

Hardcore: There were no good third-party titles at all for the Wii!
Me: Well there was Sin and Punishment 2, A Boy and his Blob, Zack and Wiki, Lost in Shadow, No More Heroes, Madworld, Muramasa, de Blob, Xenoblade, Klonoa, Tatsunoko vs Capcom...
Hardcore: They don't count! I mean games like Red Dead Redemption, Call of Duty or Arkham Asylum!

Hardcore: Nintendo games are so easy now! I can beat the game so fast!
Me: Well there are some very difficult levels for those who are willing to find and unlock them.
Hardcore: Well those are just for 100%ers, so they don't count!

(Are you noticing a bit of trend here?)

EDIT:Miss read mods please delete.

 

[Rooster893]

I view the stereotype of "casual gamers" as people who don't play games that often. The thing is, that goes against what the definition of casual is. Most of us are all casual gamers, we don't play to be stressed out, we play to unwind and have fun.

THANK YOU! This is exactly how I feel.

 

[TKretts3]

Personally I'll be buying the WiiU for the new Zelda/Metroid/Smash Bros games. Thew new 3rd party things like ZombieU are just icing on the cake for me.

 

[Launcelot111]

snip

Recall that in the old Mario games, every hill and cloud was smiling at you. They just took it to a reasonable 3D conclusion.

OT: I always maintain that casual gamers play mainly as a social event, while hardcore gamers play for the enjoyment of the medium. It has nothing to do with the games they play, as there are no innately casual or hardcore games. Us youngsters tend to forget that we grew up with games, so expertly manipulating controllers is second nature. Controllers are fairly unnatural, so I won't chide grandma for being terrible at Call of Duty, seeing as she's never touched a controller. However, if grandma has taken a liking to wii sports and has put in the time to be the best wii bowling person around due to her own enjoyment of the game, she is no less hardcore than the guy playing halo, it's just that her game has a lower threshold of complexity.

Related thought: it's kind of absurd to chide grandma for not playing our "hardcore" games and for ruining "our" hobby. People can mock her for playing Singstar instead of Halo, but is there any game that is equivalent in complexity to Halo but marketed toward 70 year old women? No, there is not. Why get mad that she likes video games but has different tastes than a teenage boy?

Third point: Why are Pixar movies wildly popular and successful? They appeal to people of all ages because they are well made, clever, and touching movies. They will appeal to children without question, but most open minded people will come out happy. There is a parallel with Nintendo in that they have been successful in making games with aesthetics that are acceptable to youngsters but gameplay that is suitable for everyone. My issue with Nintendo these days is that less of their games successfully appeal to me as much as to a 9 year old, not that I've outgrown "kiddy art" or that my tastes towards the genres that Nintendo represents have changed. Instead of Pixar, Nintendo is becoming the Disney Channel.

 

[TrevHead]

Since we have gotten into the kiddie vs mature discussion I might aswell post this vid

 

[BoogityBoogityMan]

apparently those in the industry define 'core' vs 'casual' by 1) how much knowledge the customer has and 2) how much time and money they devote to the hobby. that's all.

 

[Clearing the Eye]

I think casual games can be summed as as shallow and simplistic.

 

[MetalDooley]

Give me a break. If you're old enough to manipulate a controller, you've long outgrown this

Speak for yourself mate.I'm in my mid 30's and have absolutely no problems with bright,colourful,cute graphics like the images you posted.In fact I would prefer to look at those graphics rather than another "realistic" military shooter any day.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

There is a certain social stigma that Nintendo does "kiddy games". Kiddy in the sense that blood isn't gushing out everywhere sure. Nintendo games generally appeal to everyone, it's just as kids are also the target it has to look kid-friendly.

Give me a break. If you're old enough to manipulate a controller, you've long outgrown this:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I can handle kiddy, but this is just obnoxious. I wouldn't have liked this as a kid. I guess the Japanese go for it.

It may be that my tastes have changed, but I don't think that is the cause of my current distaste for Nintendo. I can play and enjoy the old Zelda and Mario games. But more recent titles are constantly distracting me with terrible controls and artwork for babies and Japanese people. I don't think Nintendo betrayed their fans exactly. But they definitely aren't what they were when I was a lad.

Nope. I'm a 24 year old guy and that doesn't bother me at all.
Seriously, why can't we have both? Oh wait. We can. I can go from Fallout (the originals or New Vegas) to Super Mario Galaxy to Frozen Synapse and...that's perfectly fine.

I understand not liking a visual style. Hell, there are some games (often Japanese, I admit) that are too "cutesy" even for my liking. But I'm not going to criticize anyone for being childish when I know it's just a matter of preference.

Yeah, I know. The boring old "it's subjective" argument. Everyone is tired of it. But it wouldn't have to be said so much if people didn't keep forgetting it.

I'm glad you're enjoying it, but my point is Nintendo's reputation for making games for pre-fertilized eggs is well deserved. Maybe I shouldn't have called it obnoxious. It is obnoxious, but the point is it's for very young babies. I don't mean to criticize you for liking it. After all, I like a lot of 'kiddy' stuff just fine. I just don't like this.

For the record, no one has ever forgotten that subjective things are subjective in the history of the universe. That's just something people bring up when they don't feel confident enough to argue their point on its merits.

What, you think that's childish? I think it's funny and colourfull and cute, while people who insist on only playing "mature" games and shy away from things like Mario Galaxy are the real children, trying to act grown up.

I don't mean it's immature or putting on airs, I mean it's literally designed to appeal to babies. On a related note, it looks terrible and obnoxious. I realize some nauseating adolescents try very hard to prove their transition into adulthood, but that's a different thing entirely.

snip

Recall that in the old Mario games, every hill and cloud was smiling at you. They just took it to a reasonable 3D conclusion.

I strongly disagree. Mario 64 was the reasonable 3D conclusion. It was plenty cutesy without being fucking weird like the Wii titles. For another example, Zelda isn't more cutesy than it used to be, really, just a lot more fucking weird. I mean what the hell is this?:

Spoiler

You can't tell me shit hasn't changed since I played Ocarina of Time.

 

[Launcelot111]

You can't tell me shit hasn't changed since I played Ocarina of Time.

We obviously differ in opinion about this, but I think you're ignoring a lot of the older Nintendo games and their weirdness. Ocarina of time had talking owls and demonic drum players and that weird thing in the well with all the hands and that section on the skeletal pirate ship in the spirit temple and a whole level inside a giant fish. And let's not forget the abundance of weirdness in Majora's Mask. Super Mario 64 had penguin racing and the giant talking snowman and all sorts of goofy enemies. Nintendo is doing new things of questionable value, but let's not pretend that all the random stuff they throw in is unprecedented.

And really all of that is just distracting from the point that the central gameplay mechanics have really either held steady or improved for Zelda and Mario.

 

[RaikuFA]

Which brings me to my last point. Nintendo never betrayed their fans.

Rainfall proved this wrong. That's the only point that bugs me.

 

[him over there]

Which brings me to my last point. Nintendo never betrayed their fans.

Rainfall proved this wrong. That's the only point that bugs me.

Okay, so maybe Nintendo betrayed their american fans because they feared that the rainfall games were too niche to benefit them but I was more so talking about age demographics. The people who grew up with them are angry that the games aren't aimed at them now that they aren't kids, but Nintendo simply moved on to the next generation of children.

And yes I would love if they released a lot more of their Japan only games over here.

 

[RaikuFA]

Which brings me to my last point. Nintendo never betrayed their fans.

Rainfall proved this wrong. That's the only point that bugs me.

Okay, so maybe Nintendo betrayed their american fans because they feared that the rainfall games were too niche to benefit them but I was more so talking about age demographics. The people who grew up with them are angry that the games aren't aimed at them now that they aren't kids, but Nintendo simply moved on to the next generation of children.

And yes I would love if they released a lot more of their Japan only games over here.

OK, that makes sense. Ttruthfully, I don't care as long as I enjoy the games.

 

[him over there]

and accounting for bullet drop.

I thought CoD used hitscan weapons and therefore had no bullet drop?

 

[KICdude]

To say the least I think we can all agree that Nintendo has and always been for kids. Sure they try to mix it up every now and again with things other than Mario games, but giving a dog their bone is what Nintendo is all about. Also the Wii limitations have not been met. I have played an online FPS shooter on the Wii and its not even a major company. Its a game that looks, plays, and feels great, while being brought down for the kiddies. Sure I'm ranting on about a paint ball game but its good wholesome fun 1 hit out, not a full mag of lead (maybe Lead based paint but that's another story). To give some interest in saying that there are better non-main stream titles on the Wii is a shamming fun fact. Its Cheaper, faster, and right to the point not even black-ops did that. You say that there are no good games for the Wii. Look at the games you don't usually look at, and you might find yourself surprised.

 

[him over there]

To say the least I think we can all agree that Nintendo has and always been for kids. Sure they try to mix it up every now and again with things other than Mario games, but giving a dog their bone is what Nintendo is all about. Also the Wii limitations have not been met. I have played an online FPS shooter on the Wii and its not even a major company. Its a game that looks, plays, and feels great, while being brought down for the kiddies. Sure I'm ranting on about a paint ball game but its good wholesome fun 1 hit out, not a full mag of lead (maybe Lead based paint but that's another story). To give some interest in saying that there are better non-main stream titles on the Wii is a shamming fun fact. Its Cheaper, faster, and right to the point not even black-ops did that. You say that there are no good games for the Wii. Look at the games you don't usually look at, and you might find yourself surprised.

There are a ton of diamonds in the rough that are totally glossed over by people because everything not made by Ninetndo is "shovelware". There are tons of great games that never get a chance because they aren't a-aaa titles and obviously nobody who makes a game for the wii knows anything about games and are there to make a quick buck /sarcasm. One of my favourite wii games is Endless Ocean and I think it's sad that these legitimately good games are swept aside because people generalise all games on the wii.

 

[KICdude]

I totally agree with your stand point. Over-generalization has left the Wii with nothing but a fancy plumber to its name. It almost seems unfair that just because the Wii doesn't get more than 20 titles a month released, publicized, and priced at say $60 that the system sucks. Sure the motion-controls are sketchy, but what can one expect from a system that's main objective is to make games casual, but entertaining.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

You can't tell me shit hasn't changed since I played Ocarina of Time.

We obviously differ in opinion about this, but I think you're ignoring a lot of the older Nintendo games and their weirdness. Ocarina of time had talking owls and demonic drum players and that weird thing in the well with all the hands and that section on the skeletal pirate ship in the spirit temple and a whole level inside a giant fish. And let's not forget the abundance of weirdness in Majora's Mask. Super Mario 64 had penguin racing and the giant talking snowman and all sorts of goofy enemies. Nintendo is doing new things of questionable value, but let's not pretend that all the random stuff they throw in is unprecedented.

If anything you just listed is at all weird, it's not even approaching the scale of the weirdness in the Wii titles. You're missing my point. I am definitely not ignoring talking owls and shit. I think you're ignoring the glaring difference between cutesy fun like every single thing you listed and bizarre mindfucks like the picture I posted. The former is good, the latter is bad.

And really all of that is just distracting from the point that the central gameplay mechanics have really either held steady or improved for Zelda and Mario.

Who was talking about the central gameplay mechanics? If you must, I would say it's one step forward, one step back. Zelda lost all it's atmosphere in Twilight Princess. No point examining it further really. Did anyone give one fuck about anything in that game? I just don't have the heart to try Skyward Sword. Gameplay hasn't improved in any significant way and the controls are even shittier if anyone can believe that. What I can say nice about Twilight Princess is it had some new stuff that was fun. Mounted combat jumps to mind.

As for Mario, I can only speak about Mario: Galaxy. Admittedly, it was kind of like someone polished up Mario 64 with modern flow and trappings, and to that extent I approve. But the artwork was in a contest with the controls to be the most unbearable and running around spheres was unwieldy and tedious. It completely negated the above-mentioned 'flow'. Pacing was terrible. The whole game was extremely easy except for exactly one part. My favorite parts of the game were when it finally let me do some proper platforming. It was almost like I was playing Mario again and I started to have fun.

I'm not saying I like old shit because it's old. I just don't think 'almost as good as an N64 game' is good enough any more.