Nintendo Puzzled Over Other M's Poor Performance

[Racthoh]

In Prime, she stumbled upon the ressurected Ridley on the space station, the emotional impact causes her to lose concentration and a mere explosion causes her suit to malfunction and lose her upgrades. If She hadn't seen Ridley there, that explosion wouldn't have devastated her like that. Once Samus has regained her composure she proceeds to kick ass.

That's not how it happened at all. Ridley appears, she stands there calm with her gun aimed at him. He wrecks the room they're both in and flies away; camera goes back to Samus expressing frustration and a close up on her face behind the mask has angry eyebrows. Samus is scanning an elevator when an explosion knocks out her gear.

If there is anything emotional going on it might be the fact that the space station is about to self destruct and she is fleeing for her life. Even that is a stretch given her history of encounter a similar situation in the past.

In Super Metroid Samus encounters Ridley on Ceres station. She is unprepared and is unable to prevent the theft of the larval metroid. Once Samus has regained her composure she proceeds to kick ass.

You can hardly make that argument. In any case she was prepared for something as a result of a) the distress signal that brought her back or b) the dead bodies she passed by on the way in.

Also, where is your explanation for the encounter in Prime 3? The one where Ridley first pins Samus between his claws in a narrow tube (restricting her to morph ball form no less, making her the most helpless that she has ever been against Ridley) before the real encounter in which he barrels down on top of Samus resulting in an epic race against the clock encounter down a long shaft. Heck most of the fight is spent trapped in Ridley's grasp. Yet, she didn't freeze up there in the slightest, just as in the first Prime game she just points her gun up to meet her foe.

 

[Electrogecko]

And to my comment "one of the worst 1st party games in the last 5 years"- Name one recent Nintendo game that wasn't exceptional. (and don't say Mario Party 8)

Super Paper Mario

I actually liked Super Paper Mario, personally. But to each their own.

What the hell are you talking about? So, according to your logic, Sonic Colors is an insanely awesome game because it was a huge step up from every installment in recent memory?

It's okay to compare a game to other installments in the same franchise, (for god's sake I said it may be the worst Metroid game ever) but when it comes to determining a games overall quality, one must remain objective and compare it to all games released accross all platforms. Other M is a high quality solitary experience that is also an incredibly successful gameplay experiment the likes of which none of us have ever seen before....and then I go to the Escapist and hear a bunch of tools (most of which have never touched the game) posting that it's crappy garbage and Nintendo never does anything new.

Well, if it doesn't want to have to fill certain expectations about what people want out of a Metroid game, it shouldn't be a Metroid game. Are people suppose to ignore the changes being made to the upcoming X-COM title if it manages to be good and avoids being just another generic shooter, despite everyone saying it's X-COM in name only?

Personally, I don't get your Sonic Colors argument.

And the rest of your argument sounds like you're being defensive and making excuses. I have a hard time making an argument when there's nothing solid there for me to bounce off of with a counterpoint. How are you qualifying it as a "high quality solitary experience"? What's so successful about its gameplay? What makes it stand out as something "none of us have ever seen before"? And have you considered that some of us might have a good reason for calling it a bad game and not purchasing it?

When I said Other M was unfairly judged because it had a franchise to live up to and that it would be considered indesputably good if it were a new IP, you said, and I'm paraphrasing, "but it wasn't a new IP and it did have a franchise to live up to and thus it is fair to judge it this way." You might've just as well said "this game is bad because it wasn't as amazing as it's predecesors." That is why I made the Sonic Colors argument. Games should be judged by the content on the disc and nothing else.

Franchise names don't have to do squat to relate their gameplay types to previous installments. Look at Paper Mario, Halo Wars, World of Warcraft, etc. Spin-offs are a natural part of a franchise's progression. Besides, Other M, with all it's changes, still felt very much like a Metroid game and had plenty of the aspects that made them what they are.

Of course I'm being defensive....I'm defending the game. What qualifies it as a "high quality solitary experience" (I'd like to see somebody try to make an argument for CoD or Halo on this one) and something "none of us have ever seen before?" Well it has everything that makes a single player game good and several unique and inventive control and gameplay mechanics.

Transitioning between 3rd and 1st person by pointing the controller at the screen...I'm pretty sure that was never done before...I'd say that concept alone deserved a game to realize it, and I found the process nearly instantaneous and incredibly smooth. The action slows down for a few moments whenever you switch, and Samus maintains her orientation so it's easy to keep track of your surroundings and use 1st person to study them.

Combat is another aspect that is unique and original. Running, gunning, jumping, dodging, grappling, and bombing are all integral components of combat and the controls were managed with 3 buttons, a d-pad, and a pointer, in a way that is responsive and incredibly intuitive. The auto aim made shooting pests feel uninvolved but the large amount of enemies and mandatory use of your entire arsenal made sure combat was never too boring or easy. People complained to no end about how you can "concentrate really hard" to restore health. (yet another creative use of the controller) In reality, this ability was nearly impossible to pull off in in the middle of combat unless you could stun your opponent(s) somehow or find the exact moment to break away from the fight.

The graphics are some of the best on the Wii and the environments and enemies are varied, compelling, and feel truly alien.

The story is good, even if it is a cliche science fiction standby. It is a natural fit for the franchise and is something the games have never touched on. (most people don't even know the REAL story of the game) Samus' characterization would've made a lot more sense if this game had taken place earlier in her career, but even still, it's not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be. The whole needing-Adam's-authorization thing didn't change the layout of the game one bit and makes much more sense than finding random power suit upgrades at context sensitive times. (not that I care about how realistic a game is)

The camera could be restrictive at times, (like when you're going backward) but it showcased the environment and the action perfectly and when the backdrop fell away to open up the third dimmension, it was always a smooth and natural transition. People complained about the lack of an analogue stick but I never found it to be a problem- the environments are mostly artificial and geometrically shaped, and the camera orients itself to the curves so that you can run along winding passages without more than 8 directional inputs. There are about 100 hidden expansions to be found (even if they do appear on your map after you clear the room of enemies) and some of them are new to the franchise.

I shouldn't even have to justify my position. Nobody else is adequately justifying theirs. I played through the game, had fun, and felt compelled to go back and collect all the pick-ups. I don't think Other M is a masterpiece. If I had to rate it, I'd give it an 8.5 and say it had a lot of potential that wasn't realized. It was a largely successful experiment- it had several great and original ideas and some not so great ideas. It was a disappointment mainly because it had forced linearity and subpar voice direction. I'm just sick of everybody jumping on the bandwagon and acting like it's some piece of shit. It's a good game and there's absolutely nothing else like it.

P.S. I also liked Super Paper Mario. There's another example of an underrated and incredibly unique Nintendo game.

 

[Electrogecko]

Maybe it's because of gigantic bugs that cause you to have to send an SD card to Nintendo with your save file on it to get it fixed, or start the game over and hope it doesn't happen again.

Or maybe it's because the Metroid franchise is just awful.

Yup. EVERYBODY had that bug problem and EVERYBODY knows that Metroid in general is a terrible franchise. God- Super Metroid, Prime, Zero Mission- all absolute pieces of shit. Why don't you go ahead and list all the reasons why they suck so much.

Or did you actually put the maybe in front of that sentence for a reason?

 

[Antonio Torrente]

This game shows us Samus is just a regular girl inside of her Chozo power suit.

(snip)

A lot of people hate the characterization. I didn't. Go back to Gears of War.

You know, there are, or at the very least there should be, a way to avoid Gears of War's machisimo *without* making Samus into a Stepford Housewife.

M:OM does not make Samus into a character, they reinvent her as a Yamato Nadeshiko archetype, putting in all the traits that *they* find appealing in women: Submissiveness, shyness, motherhood, obeying male authority to the point of ridiculousness. I'm not saying that these are necessarily evil traits that shouldn't be present in female characters, EDIT:Motherhood has been a part of Samus' character for years, but when you bring all of those at the same time, the result is not a personality, but idealised womanhood, put high up on a pedestal to be worshipped as an otherworldly angel.

TL;DR: M:OM lets Samus be fully defined by her gender to the point where it forces out any possibility of individuality.

As part of the generation who grew up after Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I couldn't accept this kind of characterization of Samus. From what I read in other threads about the bastardation of Samus' character they want to appeal to Japanese gamers(mainly male) who is used with frail, helpless, JRPG damsel-in-distress/princesses. I find strong women much more beautiful and sexy(not including fan-service).

 

[toastmastah_extravaganzah]

As part of the generation who grew up after Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I couldn't accept this kind of characterization of Samus. From what I read in other threads about the bastardation of Samus' character they want to appeal to Japanese gamers(mainly male) who is used with frail, helpless, JRPG damsel-in-distress/princesses. I find strong women much more beautiful and sexy(not including fan-service).

It is a bit more complex than that, and we cannot put the whole blame on cultural differences. Japanese culture has room for strong women, and they are not limited to "tomboy" roles. You can find strong-willed housewives if you look. The issue is not merely that Samus has aspects that relates to traditional Japanese femininity, but that her character stops with those aspects.

Let me make the point a bit clearer by contrasting Samus in M:OM with another well-known female character: Misato from Neon Genesis Evangelion. Like Samus, Misato has *huge* daddy issues. Adam and Misato's father are pretty much equals: Cold, distant, never giving their "daughters" a break, only to go and sacrifice themselves when it comes down to a life-or-death situation. Another thing they have in common is that Misato and Samus both becomes surrogate mothers. Add to that, Misato is painted in a much harsher light than Samus. But even so, Misato is a much less objectionable character than Samus is. What is the difference?

One, in Evangelion it has always been acknowledged that the father-daughter relationship was hideously dysfunctional. The sacrifice of Misato's father comes across as a paradox, causing more questions than it answers. In Other M, it's either supposed to wipe clean all of Adam's slights or supposed to be the final proof that what we've seen is "tough love". Honestly, I am unable to decide. However, I am certain that it is meant to be his crowning moment of awesome. He really cared! Sakamoto flat out throws out any possibility to criticise Adam with that scene.

More importantly, though, is the fact that while Misato is rounded out and given bits of personality that's neither connected to her father issues *or* her status as mommy to two horribly messed-up, self-centred, egocentric, loner teens, Samus' personality comes to a full stop when it is not directly related to her motherhood, or her father figure. Everything she says and does is connected to those two things. It's as if Sakamoto was unable to even consider the thought that she might have something else inside there. Is that all that Samus is? Adam and the baby?

There's nothing wrong with trying to win signs of affection from a parental figure. There's nothing wrong with making a maternal bond with the last Metroid. What I object to is the notion that that's *all* there is, and that Samus cannot have any other motivations or interests.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Misato passed the Bechdel test in the first damn episode of the show. I can't remember Samus talking to another woman throughout the entirety of Other M(correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot remember such a scene).

 

[Antonio Torrente]

As part of the generation who grew up after Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I couldn't accept this kind of characterization of Samus. From what I read in other threads about the bastardation of Samus' character they want to appeal to Japanese gamers(mainly male) who is used with frail, helpless, JRPG damsel-in-distress/princesses. I find strong women much more beautiful and sexy(not including fan-service).

It is a bit more complex than that, and we cannot put the whole blame on cultural differences. Japanese culture has room for strong women, and they are not limited to "tomboy" roles. You can find strong-willed housewives if you look. The issue is not merely that Samus has aspects that relates to traditional Japanese femininity, but that her character stops with those aspects.

Let me make the point a bit clearer by contrasting Samus in M:OM with another well-known female character: Misato from Neon Genesis Evangelion. Like Samus, Misato has *huge* daddy issues. Adam and Misato's father are pretty much equals: Cold, distant, never giving their "daughters" a break, only to go and sacrifice themselves when it comes down to a life-or-death situation. Another thing they have in common is that Misato and Samus both becomes surrogate mothers. Add to that, Misato is painted in a much harsher light than Samus. But even so, Misato is a much less objectionable character than Samus is. What is the difference?

One, in Evangelion it has always been acknowledged that the father-daughter relationship was hideously dysfunctional. The sacrifice of Misato's father comes across as a paradox, causing more questions than it answers. In Other M, it's either supposed to wipe clean all of Adam's slights or supposed to be the final proof that what we've seen is "tough love". Honestly, I am unable to decide. However, I am certain that it is meant to be his crowning moment of awesome. He really cared! Sakamoto flat out throws out any possibility to criticise Adam with that scene.

More importantly, though, is the fact that while Misato is rounded out and given bits of personality that's neither connected to her father issues *or* her status as mommy to two horribly messed-up, self-centred, egocentric, loner teens, Samus' personality comes to a full stop when it is not directly related to her motherhood, or her father figure. Everything she says and does is connected to those two things. It's as if Sakamoto was unable to even consider the thought that she might have something else inside there. Is that all that Samus is? Adam and the baby?

There's nothing wrong with trying to win signs of affection from a parental figure. There's nothing wrong with making a maternal bond with the last Metroid. What I object to is the notion that that's *all* there is, and that Samus cannot have any other motivations or interests.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Misato passed the Bechdel test in the first damn episode of the show. I can't remember Samus talking to another woman throughout the entirety of Other M(correct me if I'm wrong, but I cannot remember such a scene).

Yeah, I noticed that there is no other woman besides Samus in the game. And the thing aggravated me about Adam is why the fuck won't he let Samus use her protective suit in that infamous "hell run" if you know what i mean and Adam shot her in the back for no apparent reason then few moments later a metroid appeared therefore endangering Samus and later explained that the reason he did it is so that he could prevent her from disobeying his order. That's the time I began to worry about Sakamoto's perception on women and his talent on writing a story and have you already read this? [http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html] The article pretty much explained everything that is wrong about Metroid: Other M and yes this link have already been posted in this thread and others

 

[theaceplaya]

The Metroid Queen fight was the coolest one in the game. Followed closely by Phantoon (that ending where she shoved her gun into his eye, AWESOME) and Ridley. As for that scene, i would have like for her to snap out of it a bit sooner, but oh well. The thing I liked best about that game was how Samus was athletic ad nimble like she is in Smash Bros.

 

[Space Jawa]

That's the time I began to worry about Sakamoto's perception on women and his talent on writing a story and have you already read this? [http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html] The article pretty much explained everything that is wrong about Metroid: Other M and yes this link have already been posted in this thread and others

I did read the article and I think it raises some great points.

I'm also noticing that "Elephant In the Room" seems to be filling a very similar role for fans opposed to MoM that the "Heavens to Metroid" thing seems to have filled for fans in favor of MoM. They've both become pieces where you simply link to the article/video when you want help from someone who's already gone in-depth on the problems/why it's not a problem related to the game and basically made your argument for you.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm thinking now that I would love to see a face-off debate between the creators of the two pieces. I'd even be in favor of MovieBob bringing in a backup debater of his choice in to make it an even 2-on-2. It probably wouldn't settle the argument at all, but maybe it would be a good step towards getting a more civil grounds for future debate between the pro and anti MoM forces.

Certainly couldn't hurt to try, at least.

So anyone else with me in trying to get a Tuvia Dulin & MenTaLguY VS. MovieBob & (co-debater TBA) debate 2v2 showdown regarding MoM to happen?

 

[Antonio Torrente]

That's the time I began to worry about Sakamoto's perception on women and his talent on writing a story and have you already read this? [http://moonbase.rydia.net/mental/blog/gaming/metroid-other-m-the-elephant/article.html] The article pretty much explained everything that is wrong about Metroid: Other M and yes this link have already been posted in this thread and others

I did read the article and I think it raises some great points.

I'm also noticing that "Elephant In the Room" seems to be filling a very similar role for fans opposed to MoM that the "Heavens to Metroid" thing seems to have filled for fans in favor of MoM. They've both become pieces where you simply link to the article/video when you want help from someone who's already gone in-depth on the problems/why it's not a problem related to the game and basically made your argument for you.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm thinking now that I would love to see a face-off debate between the creators of the two pieces. I'd even be in favor of MovieBob bringing in a backup debater of his choice in to make it an even 2-on-2. It probably wouldn't settle the argument at all, but maybe it would be a good step towards getting a more civil grounds for future debate between the pro and anti MoM forces.

Certainly couldn't hurt to try, at least.

So anyone else with me in trying to get a Tuvia Dulin & MenTaLguY VS. MovieBob & (co-debater TBA) debate 2v2 showdown regarding MoM to happen?

That's a great idea you have there, but will MovieBob, Tuvia Dulin & MenTaLguY would even comply to the challenge? But still i want to see that kind of debate happen.

 

[Space Jawa]

That's a great idea you have there, but will MovieBob, Tuvia Dulin & MenTaLguY would even comply to the challenge? But still i want to see that kind of debate happen.

Well, yeah, we'd need to ask them, first. But no point in going and asking them if there'd be no interest in it happening anyway. Granted, getting interest in it before asking them kind of feels off too, but I suppose it's sort of a catch-22 that way.

Point is, yes, there's no guarantee that either side would have any interest in such a debate anyway, but seeing how I came up with the idea right before I wrote the point, there didn't seem a point in contacting both sides and checking whether they'd be down for it before writing up my post, since it was nothing more than a 'wouldn't it be cool if?' thing at the moment.

 

[Grey Walker]

I'll admit I haven't played Other M, nor have I looked at the cutscenes. However, I've seen a couple reviews on both sides, and I really want to post this SOMEWHERE.

I'll probably pick up the game used at one point so I can make a solid opinion on it.

For now, what I've seen.

SUMMARY: Good ideas, poor execution.

Deadpan character voice acting with sudden emotional transitions:

Would Samus be a little out of touch with how to properly communicate with people? Possibly. But she was raised in a relatively wholesome environment, despite them being aliens, and should have been able to express a variety of emotions. The dramatic and sudden switches were too much, and the voice actress was either that bad on purpose or there were costs that needed to be cut. She has showed tenderness, compassion, frustration, and rage in the Prime series as well as Fusion.

The breakdown in front of Ridley:

At first I joined the legions of people who cried out "She's killed him 4 freaking times already! What is this?!". Then I read an article that pointed out it could have been Ridley's revival after killing him 4 times (A "WHY WON"T YOU DIE!!!???" moment, if you will.) that sent her over the edge. With that in mind, let's review:

Metroid / Zero Mission: ( 1st kill.)

Samus kills Ridley. Revenge complete. Anger is likely the primary emotion.

Metroid Prime: (2nd kill.)

Ridley is being rebuilt. The plot is more or less started by pursuing Mecha Ridley, and he is supposedly killed as the 2nd last boss. Don't think there was a body, though. If I remember correctly he fell off the cliff in flames and exploding. Primary emotion would be anger again, and perhaps some fear now that the boogeyman is back. NOTE: SOME fear. NOT A BREAKDOWN.)

Metroid Prime 3: (3rd Kill.)

Omega Ridley appears in this, powered up by Phazon. Given that he's her personal nightmare, Samus is likely getting more fearful of him, and he keeps coming back no matter how many times she takes him down. Hesitation which could be interpreted as fear is pretty clear. Again, it is subtle, where the fear results in combat, not a breakdown. If I remember correctly there is more or less a definitive kill at this point. I'll have to double check. Emotions: Anger, frustration, and fear. I can see Samus panting and sweating under the visor after the battle, expecting him to get up again.

Super Metroid: (4th Kill.)

I haven't played this, so I don't know. Likely dies by exploding, leaving no body.

By M: OM, he's come back 4 times, at least once by a definitive kill. This would be a good point to show a quick flashback to the other kills (via cutscene, of course), some "why won't you die?!" dialogue, and some panicked shooting where Ridley could laugh and get an easy shot in before the combat starts. Maybe have Samus cry at the memory of her parents' deaths and her frustration. Not helpless sobbing, but a choked up voice and a few tears behind the visor.

I feel that would be a more believable response to Ridely's reappearance, and wouldn't annoy as many of the fans. It conveys the idea of humanity and emotion, but shows that Samus can have emotions and still kick ass.

The fire level fiasco:

Gameplay idea of making the level more dangerous so that you need to try and survive some before becoming immune? Good idea. It makes the Varia upgrade feel necessary in a hostile environment, as opposed to a change of scenery.

Explanation of why? Terrible. Not turning on your Varia Suit in a hot place is like not using the air in your tank underwater. Adam is made to be cruel, and Samus to be an idiot. I know Nintendo/Team Ninja wanted to break the formula of losing then retrieving powerups, but in this case, at least, there should have been a loss of the upgrade (perhaps during an earlier boss fight), and Samus needed to get to a transmission station in the level so the Federation could send a backup. Or whatever else worked. Point being: Samus does not use the Varia suit because she DOES NOT HAVE IT/ IT'S BROKEN as opposed to "Adam says no."

There are other story issues to be worked out, but this is already too long for most people to read, so I'll cut it off here.

 

[Antonio Torrente]

That's a great idea you have there, but will MovieBob, Tuvia Dulin & MenTaLguY would even comply to the challenge? But still i want to see that kind of debate happen.

Well, yeah, we'd need to ask them, first. But no point in going and asking them if there'd be no interest in it happening anyway. Granted, getting interest in it before asking them kind of feels off too, but I suppose it's sort of a catch-22 that way.

Point is, yes, there's no guarantee that either side would have any interest in such a debate anyway, but seeing how I came up with the idea right before I wrote the point, there didn't seem a point in contacting both sides and checking whether they'd be down for it before writing up my post, since it was nothing more than a 'wouldn't it be cool if?' thing at the moment.

they probably already lost interest in the subject.

 

[clarissa]

I tell you why Metroid: Other M did not sold as expected... because Samus, in this game is a lame teenager character, who can not use her power because her EX-commandant says so.

 

[AdamRBi]

Other M had it's flaws, yes. The Pixel Hunting, the walking portions, the no-motion FPS stuff like that. I'll go against the grain on this one and say I didn't mind the story or Samus's personality. She was less robotic. I agree though the writers could have done better with the weapons unlock, the only one that made any sense was the power-bomb.

But the whole thing with Samus's personality made sense when dealing with someone she worked with when she was younger. Without him around she'd probably be just as quiet and serious.

Gameplay was fine, could of done better on the non-2D planes but overall it was good. I enjoyed it.