Nintendo Says No To Same Sex Relationships For Tomodachi Miis

[DarkRawen]

Not only that, but children see, and learn, bigotry from adults if it goes unchallenged, even if its subtle.

http://www4.uwm.edu/letsci/africology/faculty/upload/children_colorblind.pdf
http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/Racism&YoungChildren-byTheresaLee.pdf

Child learn from adults. If adults either don't object to homophobia or outright endorse homophobia, then the children will endorse homophobia. And if the child is gay, they'll internalize self-hatred.

(I might regret this but...)

You know, people can support the cause without joining or siding with the LGBT movement, and they can certainly teach their children not to endorse homophobia on their own, without needing to side with any side at all. :/ Assuming that people like that are just being like: "Nope, dunno about that issue, dun care" is sort of narrow-minded.

 

[Eve Charm]

This is the most damning argument with any social justice platform, and it's used everywhere. If someone is neutral or has no interest on a platform, they're not compliant with the opposition.

Except, they are. See my personal example in that very post you're quoting, the paragraph right before.

Not only that, but children see, and learn, bigotry from adults if it goes unchallenged, even if its subtle.

http://www4.uwm.edu/letsci/africology/faculty/upload/children_colorblind.pdf
http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/Racism&YoungChildren-byTheresaLee.pdf

Child learn from adults. If adults either don't object to homophobia or outright endorse homophobia, then the children will endorse homophobia. And if the child is gay, they'll internalize self-hatred.

Ya but since when does fighting bigotry with more bigotry help? When does fighting a misunderstanding with bigotry help? Yelling at people to be tolerant and understanding about your views while being intolerant of theirs, no matter how right you think you are gets nowhere. You don't get to call yourself the victim when your clearly the attacker. That's the mentality that starts wars not bring people together because fighting people will just make people fight back.

 

[Cybylt]

Which is funny because complaining about it online IS sitting on your thumbs and changing nothing with the angry posts being nothing more than a big fat placebo that makes you think otherwise. Largely because they will likely never leave the echo-chamber of forums filled with people who share your opinion.

You want to know how much of the reforms during the all three of those movements were gained?

Protests that bring attention to the problem and people, businesses, and organzation that perpetuated it, asking for recognition as a people group, and organizing boycotts. Well lets see...

1) By somebody organizing themselves, Nintendo's stance, at least on this game, was revealed, and now people know about it.

2) In the prior mentioned in the "Miiquality" effort, this was stated: "You import your personalized characters into the game. You name them. You give them a personality. You give them a voice. They just can't fall in love if they're gay."

Nobody accused of being homophobes, just stating that you're disrespecting people who are gay by not recognizing their lives in this game about emulating the experience of life.

3) People are deciding to boycott Nintendo for this decision, and are spreading the word.

Seems like all those conditions I mentioned are being met.

Additionally, I wouldn't exactly call The Escapist an "echo-chamber" when it comes to this type of stuff. See: your own post, this very thread, the recent Mozilla thing, the Duck Dynasty comments, the Chick-fil-a thing from two years ago, just to name a few of the bigger instances.

I wasn't calling just the Escapist an echo-chamber, I was calling the vast majority of the internet one.

None of those entities have changed their stance, not even Mozilla. It got one guy fired, and that's super shitty since his personal beliefs aren't supposed to interfere with how he worked in the company... and that was it. Very, very few people will ever take it a step past the hashtags or get off their rage boner in an angry post then pat themselves on the back for their good deed of the day, and promptly forget it. Those who are "boycotted" aren't exactly hurting from it seeing as there's incredibly little overlap between the community and the business so what change has been wrought other than people typing up how offended they are?

It takes a physical presence to actually get something done and as long as people feel change is done with an angry post that's not going to happen. It's simply a delusion and it is why a growing number of people get tired of hearing about it on either end.

 

[Olas]

I don't think this is out of malice or anything, Nintendo just has a long tradition of not wanting to be yelled at by religious nut jobs. They didn't like any religious iconography on games released on their systems, they had midway remove the blood from Mortal Kombat 1, and they wouldn't allow Binding of Issac to be released on the ds or 3ds.

When it comes to issues of LGBTQ, if you're not with us then you're part of the problem.

The biggest issue being faced is apathy or indifference to the issue and having it be ignored.

I don't understand. How exactly is apathy a problem? Isn't apathy what you should want? Isn't being apathetic towards race, gender, sexually etc the very definition of being non-discriminatory?

Perhaps you're conflating apathy with ignorance. However, even ignorance is nowhere near as bad as active discrimination. You can't call a game homophobic just because it doesn't feature gay characters, especially if the number of characters isn't particularly large, or if some of them are left sexually ambiguous.

It really seems like you're just trying to pick a fight to me. A fight with someone who has done nothing to express ill-will. Hell, if you really think it's so terrible for Nintendo to not include homosexuality in it's games why wait until this game to bring it up? Last time I checked Nintendo hasn't featured homosexuality in any previous games in their history spanning decades, at least not explicitly. Why is it only a problem now?

 

[Fulbert]

Home country view is irrelevant when they're so deeply involved with Western affairs.

If this line isn't in the American anthem somewhere, then it totally should be. It's West's attitude to the rest of the world in a nutshell.

 

[ace_of_something]

When it comes to issues of LGBTQ, if you're not with us then you're part of the problem.

The biggest issue being faced is apathy or indifference to the issue and having it be ignored.

Forgive my ignorance for I am simple country boy from a small town. But I've never seen that with a "Q" on the end of it and I've had a brother who's out and proud for almost 20 years now and have been a PFLAG supporter since 1999.

Still, all that. Never seen the 'Q'

EDIT: Weighing in on the actual article. I feel this is a non-issue. There much bigger fish to fry, plus Nintendo is a private company and can do what it wants. I guess I could boycott. But I don't buy Nintendo stuff anyway so...

 

[DarkRawen]

(I might regret this but...)

You know, people can support the cause without joining or siding with the LGBT movement, and they can certainly teach their children not to endorse homophobia on their own, without needing to side with any side at all.

Thing is though, that is, sort of, a pro-gay endorsement. You have a right to exist and not be harassed or mistreated for being gay. That, to pretty much every anti-gay organization I've ever had the misfortune of encountering or learning about, is in opposition to their platform. I've never encountered an organization that was, say, anti-gay marriage without being opposed to other pro-gay legislature as well, like anti-discrimination bills, gay adoption, or just plain any recognition from the government in general.

If somebody were to ask you "do you think we should get rid of racial segregation?", you couldn't stay neutral. You have to take a side, because in this hypothetical scenario there are laws on the books for segregation. To stay neutral is to support the status quo. The current status quo is still fairly homophobic, but is rapidly changing from what it used to be. To keep the trend of quoting MLK Jr, "In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." If I have a friend or family member that doesn't think, say, that I should be able to get married or adopt, they don't respect me, or at least, not as much as they would if I were straight. If a friend or family member doesn't care whether I'm able to get married or adopt, they similarly don't respect me, or sometimes even worse, less than those in staunch opposition. At least some of the anti-gay think that they're somehow helping gay people by not allowing to them to do these things. At least that shows that they care about helping them.

:/ Assuming that people like that are just being like: "Nope, dunno about that issue, dun care" is sort of narrow-minded.

As the links demonstrated "dunno about that, don't care" can have a negative influence on children.

Yes, but one shouldn't assume that everyone who doesn't side with the LGBT don't care. Some people have reasons not to be vocal about it, or simply don't want to support the somewhat extreme arguments or assumption that seem to be what one hear the most of the movement (after all, the loudest ones are often the extreme ones).

As for the above thing, not being vocal =/= not caring. I certainly support the cause, but I'm still hesitant to interact with the group/movement, and don't associate myself with it despite being neither straight nor identifying as the sex I was born as. I can easily admit that I'm either, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to have a "with us or against us" stance on anything. Similarly, people have a lot of reasons for not being vocal about it, some peer pressure, some are unsure of where they stand, and so on. some people are just going through a lot of stuff and cannot fight a battle that's not their own, and that's their choice. I doubt there's a lot of people who simply don't care.

 

[Dragonbums]

You want to know what's the funniest thing about this whole situation? It's shaping up to be EXACTLY like the chic-fil-a incident. I have already seen an overwhelming amount of comments of people saying they will buy this game because it didn't have gay marriage in it and it pissed of the LGBTQ+ crowd. Won't that be fucking ironic.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

When it comes to issues of LGBTQ, if you're not with us then you're part of the problem.

The biggest issue being faced is apathy or indifference to the issue and having it be ignored.

Forgive my ignorance for I am simple country boy from a small town. But I've never seen that with a "Q" on the end of it and I've had a brother who's out and proud for almost 20 years now and have been a PFLAG supporter since 1999.

Still, all that. Never seen the 'Q'

EDIT: Weighing in on the actual article. I feel this is a non-issue. There much bigger fish to fry, plus Nintendo is a private company and can do what it wants. I guess I could boycott. But I don't buy Nintendo stuff anyway so...

Q is for "Questioning," IIRC. Open to the possibility that they might be in the other letter categories, and/or curious.


OT: I dunno. This isn't the company that made Senran Kagura, but this is the company that let it on their system, 3ds. A game about large breasted highschool girls, one of whom is obsessed with groping the rest of them. The stick can't be that far up their bums, can it?

Considering that Nintendo is considering allowing same sex relations after all if it gets positive reactions, I think that the thread might be a bit premature.

Then again, Nintendo said something similar about a Zelda game where you play as Zelda happening if it got positivity behind it. It kinda dropped off the face of the planet.

I kinda wanna give nintendo a chance to rectify things since the loss of access to same sex relations was, if nintendo is to be believed, a glitch and a memory leak. I'm definitely going to try and make a friendly suggestion to Nintendo via the suggestion area of the registration quiz on club nintendo.

Believe me, I definitely don't want my Mii forced into some uncomfortable straight relationship any more than others. I'm not looking to coddle Nintendo. If they screw this up, 'mma be plenty upset.

 

[MrMan999]

When it comes to issues of LGBTQ, if you're not with us then you're part of the problem.

The biggest issue being faced is apathy or indifference to the issue and having it be ignored.

Forgive my ignorance for I am simple country boy from a small town. But I've never seen that with a "Q" on the end of it and I've had a brother who's out and proud for almost 20 years now and have been a PFLAG supporter since 1999.

Still, all that. Never seen the 'Q'

EDIT: Weighing in on the actual article. I feel this is a non-issue. There much bigger fish to fry, plus Nintendo is a private company and can do what it wants. I guess I could boycott. But I don't buy Nintendo stuff anyway so...

Q is for "Questioning," IIRC. Open to the possibility that they might be in the other letter categories, and/or curious.


OT: I dunno. This isn't the company that made Senran Kagura, but this is the company that let it on their system, 3ds. A game about large breasted highschool girls, one of whom is obsessed with groping the rest of them. The stick can't be that far up their bums, can it?

Considering that Nintendo is considering allowing same sex relations after all if it gets positive reactions, I think that the thread might be a bit premature.

Then again, Nintendo said something similar about a Zelda game where you play as Zelda happening if it got positivity behind it. It kinda dropped off the face of the planet.

I kinda wanna give nintendo a chance to rectify things since the loss of access to same sex relations was, if nintendo is to be believed, a glitch and a memory leak. I'm definitely going to try and make a friendly suggestion to Nintendo via the suggestion area of the registration quiz on club nintendo.

Believe me, I definitely don't want my Mii forced into some uncomfortable straight relationship any more than others. I'm not looking to coddle Nintendo. If they screw this up, 'mma be plenty upset.

Well to be fair to the Zelda thing, Zelda games usually take upwards of three to four years to be made. And I agree, we shouldn't jump straight to boycotting. A polite and well reasoned email campaign will work just fine.

 

[Olas]

Examples? Evidence? Reasoning? Do you have anything like that to back up this weird opinion of yours?

The Nintendo Defense Force doesn't have to work very hard when there isn't anything real to defend against.

*cracks neck* Well since you asked, now keep in mind these are wholly my opinions and are really just extra dollops of cream on the "why the fuck is Nintendo so fan-dabby-dabulous" cake.

To list all the ways I consider them old and thoroughly outdated, hmm where to start? The tech most obviously along with their online infrastructure being outdated and dragging the chain. Their treatment of consumers with dry sequel after dry sequel that prey upon Nostalgia, lack of third party support, etc.

Nintendo's lack of interest in cutting edge hardware is more of a preference than old fashioned idealism, one could make the same argument for all consoles. Unless you want to pay up the ass you aren't going to get cutting edge graphics. However, they also design unique hardware for their consoles. Look at the last three Nintendo controllers.

Spoiler

And now let's look at the last 3 Xbox controllers

Spoiler

So don't tell me they only want to recycle the same formula over and over, just because they don't prioritize the same things as the other console makers, that doesn't mean they're stuck in the past. Not that technology has anything to do with the larger conversation we're having anyway

Generally the stuff I consider to be insidious is the way they treat female characters in general. If they aren't pushed into done to death tropes (locked in a cupboard damsel in distress dujour) they are not allowed to be openly feminine and have to hide it under a facade of androgyny (Shiek & Samus).

Both Shiek and Samus deliberately had their sexuality hidden so it would be a surprise later in the game, being openly feminine would have ruined that. You also have characters like Daisy Kong, Tetra the pirate, Midna, and Rosalina who do not fall into these "done to death tropes" and all have some degree of femininity to them. Moving on...

Frankly I don't think Nintendo are the hero of the games industry that every neurotic fan makes them out to be.

I don't think they are either, and I also don't think the characterization of every Nintendo fan as a neurotic quasi-religious fanatic is accurate, at least not of the majority of us. It's easy to see how someone WOULD be a big fan of a company that has historically made some of the greatest games for numerous console generations, but that doesn't mean we think Nintendo can do no wrong or that we ignore it's mistakes. We just tend to defend it against the titalwaves of unreasonable hate this site tends to throw at it, like this whole thread.

But hey, just my opinion, it's not like I'm booking a flight to Nintendo HQ and setting up anthrax bombs or something... much too expensive.

I never accused you of being a terrorist, but comments like this:

Despite the kiddy friendly facade, nintedo is damn insidious. Like a man in a pedo-bear suit

I think demand some explanation, which you have so far failed to deliver. You can't just say "X is like hitler, but that's just my opinion" and think that that works.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Well, that's one more company to add to the block list for homophobia.

Such a shame, I really liked Nintendo too.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge them, they've got to keep in mind what the current viewpoint in their home country is as opposed to what they may feel.

That's what I was going to say. As mentioned, Gay marriage isn't legal in Japan so Nintendo was most likely trying to avoid legal issues in their home country and adding it into the international release probably would've involved a great deal of coding and a bunch more QA testing which would've been quite costly.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

You want to know what's the funniest thing about this whole situation? It's shaping up to be EXACTLY like the chic-fil-a incident. I have already seen an overwhelming amount of comments of people saying they will buy this game because it didn't have gay marriage in it and it pissed of the LGBTQ+ crowd. Won't that be fucking ironic.

Mostly lurking this thread as I have trouble voicing my opinions in a way that makes sense to others. I just wanted to say, in regards to this post, that I hope people don't think Nintendo is endorsing what they're saying in regards to them (being the anti-LGBTQ people) buying it.

 

[Epicspoon]

What's stopping you from making a Male Mii and giving it a female voice and just pretending it's such?

 

[azurine]

I don't really think this is Nintendo being homophobic, I think they're just unsure of what to do. Allowing same sex relations could get them in trouble, (media hounds attacking them saying "it's making our children gay" and whatnot) and denying it makes them seem homophobic. They're currently trapped between a rock and a hard place, with no possible middle ground between choices.

I just feel sorry for Nintendo, they probably didn't expect this much controversy.

 

[likalaruku]

Well, that's one more company to add to the block list for homophobia.

Such a shame, I really liked Nintendo too.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge them, they've got to keep in mind what the current viewpoint in their home country is as opposed to what they may feel.

Japan: The country that makes more gay porn than any other country, the country responsible for the Fujoshi Movement.

 

[Kuchinawa212]

Well, that's one more company to add to the block list for homophobia.

Such a shame, I really liked Nintendo too.

I know you're getting quoted alot but, it is just one game. And they mentioned theyd think about it. Give em a little more faith

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Both Shiek and Samus deliberately had their sexuality hidden so it would be a surprise later in the game, being openly feminine would have ruined that.

Well ain't that convenient.

You also have characters like Daisy Kong,

When was she a heavily featured character last, Donkey Kong 64?

Tetra the pirate,

Locked in an underwater castle cupboard after finding out she's a princess.

Midna,

I'll give ya that one.

and Rosalina who do not fall into these "done to death tropes" and all have some degree of femininity to them. Moving on...

You go off and save the galaxy Mario I'll just sit here and read...
The only one who had real agency was Midna which is why I liked Twilight Princess and Tetra for half the story. Moving on...

We just tend to defend it against the titalwaves of unreasonable hate this site tends to throw at it, like this whole thread.

I don't think Nintendo employees are going to cry because the Escapist has issues with what they're doing or what kind of message they are sending. Sure they're probably trying to not stir up trouble at home in Japan where homosexuality is supposedly illegal, but that just strikes me as 'lacking conviction' as somebody put it earlier so well.

Which just sums up what I don't like about them in generally, they don't move forward or ahead, I feel like I grew up but they didn't. Which is a bit presumptuous on my part to assume a company can entertain me throughout my life, not expecting Sesame Street to air episodes like Cosmos.

Simply as much as a group of investors can tear out a companies spine, Nintendo's is certainly missing more of their spine than a few game companies out there.

I never accused you of being a terrorist, but comments like this:

Despite the kiddy friendly facade, nintedo is damn insidious. Like a man in a pedo-bear suit

I think demand some explanation, which you have so far failed to deliver. You can't just say "X is like hitler, but that's just my opinion" and think that that works.

Well when I think Nintendo is insidious I just think they're are a lot 'colder' than how people tend to imagine them (nostalgia and rose tinted glasses and all that). So whilst a man in a pedo-bear suit may not be a pedophile, because to uneducated people he just looks like a bear, but to me I can see these things and they rub me up the wrong way.

So maybe my opinion(s) is the counter to special pleading (special defaming?), but the fact that this powerhouse of a brand people associate with their youth and a company people hold in high regard, just sort of goes; 'homosexuality is a bug, you're all weird', I can imagine how people would be offended by that. People tried being nice and level with them, but companies only ever seem to respond to bad press.

 

[spartenX]

In other news; Games Journalists Say No To Fact-checking

 

[Seraj33]

Attacking people who are ignorant are a fast way to make people hate the attacker. Knowledge and understanding is what is ultimately required for the LGBQT community to be universally accepted in the world community. By attack blindly with anyone who disagrees with you without checking to see why they disagree with you will do more bad than good in the long run.

Id just like to strenghten this argument by giving myself as proof. That reason there is why I despised feminists for the longest time. My first experience with feminist was the kind (that in reality arent really feminists) who would be all the happier if every manpig on earth died a slow painful death. So you can imagine what I thought about people who called themselves feminists until my dear school taught me the acutall defenition of the word.