No matter how open-minded...

[SonicWaffle]

Oh, Descartes, you and your hypothetical demon. Of course, the problem with that idea is that saying "We may never know!" and dropping the subject is pretty much impossible for our species. We're just so bloody curious.

That's Pascal, not Descartes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_demon

In his 1641 Meditations on First Philosophy, René Descartes hypothesises the existence of an evil demon, a personification who is "as clever and deceitful as he is powerful, who has directed his entire effort to misleading me." The evil demon presents a complete illusion of an external world, including other people, to Descartes' senses, where in fact there is no such external world in existence. The evil genius also presents to Descartes' senses a complete illusion of his own body, including all bodily sensations, when in fact Descartes has no body.

I'm not even sure which Pascal argument you mean. Link plz?

 

[viking97]

well, in the area of objective fact i might try to correct you.

Ah, but this is my point. Is the existence of God not an objective question? Even if you were an agnostic (or a "weak" atheist) and thought you could never know what it is, certainly you would think there's a fact of the matter. And since you seem to be of the opinion that God does not exist, then I'd assume you think you have good reasons to believe that. So if that's all true, then someone who believes in God is wrong in the exact same way that they would be wrong to think that sin(pi/2) is 0. It would be a simple matter of showing them their error, then.

...Unless there's more to this God thing?

people tend to become rather resistant to fact in the areas where god is concerned. overall its more effort then its worth.

 

[winginson]

People who lack the willpower or self-restraint to not give in to their base desires.

While there are many forms of this, my example will be of something going around my social group at the moment. There are alot of girls going "I love my bf, but I met this other guy and I just couldn't stop myself cheating. My relationship is in tatters so feel sorry for me". I understand how even when in a happy relationship you can find another person physically and mentally attractive. I just don't get how people can be so weak as to give in to their base desires even when they know they shouldn't.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

It's because tattoos can have a distinct purpose, it could be a reminder of a loved one you've lost. Cosmetic surgery and dying your hair just seems to me like you're so ashamed of your body that you need to somehow change it.

Any body modification falls under the same spectrum for me. I'm sure all those tribal tattoos floating around on various biceps and lower backs mean a great deal to their wearer. Just like switching genders (a cosmetic surgery) correct whatever oversight certain people feel they need to overcome.

I live in a fairly heavily tattoo'd city, and the vast majority is for show. Far be it from me to suggest *not* to permanently scar their skin with ink to constantly remind them of an emotional torment everyone will have to visually endure.

 

[Dr. wonderful]

This is turning into something that looks like a flame war. Hm, I for some reason, love reading all these comments regarding religion. I'm constantly trying to find new arguments made between theists and atheists. so far it's getting good

look... whats the point? All the debate boils down to is points that are so insanely subjective that it becomes a waste of time even attempting to use one of them as an argument. The arguments overlap each other, canceling each other out because they have little to no bearing on solid logic and reason. The only bearing they truly have are their significance to the person using the arguments "This value is more important then that value" kind of thing. How it feels to you. It becomes an opinion, and nothing more.

Religion isn't the cause of millions of deaths, it's us. We created religion. blame the people using it for selfish reasons instead of the religion itself. Religion is a blank slate, and like many other things, it can be morphed in ways that can benefit, or hurt others. We should be using it for the betterment of society, but there are a lot of people who use and abuse religion to insane levels. We are the most advanced species on the planet, and yet we are scared religion (to clarify, the extreme kind) will corrupt us all.

Now... if any escapist wishes to, reply on my stance. Would like to here if I've missed a point, or something is off. I'd also like to know if you disagree. Don't hold back

I've read through this entire thread, now...

... and every time I saw one of these folks bring up religion, I cringed. Religious folks, and I say this referring to -real- religious folks... not the kind that talk the good talk and then go on to use their faith to justify bigotry and persecution by treating anyone that disagrees like an uncivilized barbarian, are generally good folks. They're not deluded. They're not idiots. They're not whack jobs. They're people who believe in something because they cannot fathom things working in a different way.

I often tell people who talk to me in a civilized manner about religion that "Yes, I believe in a God. But -my- God was a scientist".

I also suspect that we were once infinitely more civilized and advanced technologically than we are now... but I don't try to ramrod that suspicion down anyone else's throat just like I wouldn't want someone to impose their faith upon me. It's good to have things to believe in. Folks can talk all they want about 'weak wills needing faith'... but faith comes from WITHIN. We have the propensity for it, because we are programmed to. Because we're wired to believe in things... to see things... to try to make meaningful connections.

For some people that's cold, hard rationality. For others... it's mysticism and belief and magic. And you know what? That's GREAT! It's a wonderful thing! It's a great big, amazing universe we live in... and if you can't cope with the scope or the size or the reality... than I don't care WHAT you have to think. Go right on ahead and think it. Because there's so much of it, if you don't want to be crushed under the weight of it all... I don't blame you.

But me, I love to absorb myself in it. I study religions. I study doctrine, and philosophy. They're all tools of the human mind.


And what I don't... what I can't... what I -refuse- to justify with thought... is the idea that people are so willfully ignorant that they can't see the roles that these things play. We don't need to abolish faith to allow reason to expand and grow. We don't need every person who THINKS to find faith.

What we need are people who know how to put their differences aside and COMMUNICATE.

All the logic, all the faith, all the understanding in the universe won't make up for the failures of communication which currently lead us down a dark road to our ultimate demise.

So hey! While the atheists and the Christians and the Muslims and the Jews... while the Scientologists and the Quakers and the... er... 'isms' over there in Asia... while all those folks' loud, obnoxious cousins are busy duking it out over the age of the world... let's find some fellow minds with a SMALL spark of imagination left in 'em, and get to work on LEAVING this damn rock! We need to get out there, and we need to make it a priority. We're squandering resources at far too great a rate to justify dragging our feet now.

See this? This post is the ONLY post that I seen here that was actually intelligent. Thank you. Thank you for writing this.

 

[JesterRaiin]

...close-minded, inflexible people that are first to judge and throw stones instead of asking questions. Seriously, we live in such wonderful times, we see things that only a few decades ago were considered hard SF and still, one of most favourite words seems to be "impossible".

O Tempora, o mores...

 

[Burningsok]

This is turning into something that looks like a flame war. Hm, I for some reason, love reading all these comments regarding religion. I'm constantly trying to find new arguments made between theists and atheists. so far it's getting good

look... whats the point? All the debate boils down to is points that are so insanely subjective that it becomes a waste of time even attempting to use one of them as an argument. The arguments overlap each other, canceling each other out because they have little to no bearing on solid logic and reason. The only bearing they truly have are their significance to the person using the arguments "This value is more important then that value" kind of thing. How it feels to you. It becomes an opinion, and nothing more.

Religion isn't the cause of millions of deaths, it's us. We created religion. blame the people using it for selfish reasons instead of the religion itself. Religion is a blank slate, and like many other things, it can be morphed in ways that can benefit, or hurt others. We should be using it for the betterment of society, but there are a lot of people who use and abuse religion to insane levels. We are the most advanced species on the planet, and yet we are scared religion (to clarify, the extreme kind) will corrupt us all.

Now... if any escapist wishes to, reply on my stance. Would like to here if I've missed a point, or something is off. I'd also like to know if you disagree. Don't hold back

I've read through this entire thread, now...

... and every time I saw one of these folks bring up religion, I cringed. Religious folks, and I say this referring to -real- religious folks... not the kind that talk the good talk and then go on to use their faith to justify bigotry and persecution by treating anyone that disagrees like an uncivilized barbarian, are generally good folks. They're not deluded. They're not idiots. They're not whack jobs. They're people who believe in something because they cannot fathom things working in a different way.

I often tell people who talk to me in a civilized manner about religion that "Yes, I believe in a God. But -my- God was a scientist".

I also suspect that we were once infinitely more civilized and advanced technologically than we are now... but I don't try to ramrod that suspicion down anyone else's throat just like I wouldn't want someone to impose their faith upon me. It's good to have things to believe in. Folks can talk all they want about 'weak wills needing faith'... but faith comes from WITHIN. We have the propensity for it, because we are programmed to. Because we're wired to believe in things... to see things... to try to make meaningful connections.

For some people that's cold, hard rationality. For others... it's mysticism and belief and magic. And you know what? That's GREAT! It's a wonderful thing! It's a great big, amazing universe we live in... and if you can't cope with the scope or the size or the reality... than I don't care WHAT you have to think. Go right on ahead and think it. Because there's so much of it, if you don't want to be crushed under the weight of it all... I don't blame you.

But me, I love to absorb myself in it. I study religions. I study doctrine, and philosophy. They're all tools of the human mind.


And what I don't... what I can't... what I -refuse- to justify with thought... is the idea that people are so willfully ignorant that they can't see the roles that these things play. We don't need to abolish faith to allow reason to expand and grow. We don't need every person who THINKS to find faith.

What we need are people who know how to put their differences aside and COMMUNICATE.

All the logic, all the faith, all the understanding in the universe won't make up for the failures of communication which currently lead us down a dark road to our ultimate demise.

So hey! While the atheists and the Christians and the Muslims and the Jews... while the Scientologists and the Quakers and the... er... 'isms' over there in Asia... while all those folks' loud, obnoxious cousins are busy duking it out over the age of the world... let's find some fellow minds with a SMALL spark of imagination left in 'em, and get to work on LEAVING this damn rock! We need to get out there, and we need to make it a priority. We're squandering resources at far too great a rate to justify dragging our feet now.

I... don't think I could of said it any better

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

Ooh. Look at all of the lovely little Social Darwinists on here.

Personally, I don't understand two things: Not being able to articulate your opinions or views, and the debate as to whether God/the Afterlife exists.

But it's the debate that really gets me. On one side, the religious: Their proof of His/Its existence is their scripture, beliefs, and oral traditions; and they patently refuse to either accept the possibility of being incorrect, plug their ears and go lalala whenever someone says something rational that contravenes one of their many beliefs. On the other, Atheists: They run on rationalism, proof, and scientific method (and no, that scripture doesn't count, you smelly caveman skyworshiper); and patently refuse to acknowledge that there is no way to disprove the Divine and that no matter how infinitesimally small the probability of the Divine's existence, it is not disprovable, plug their ears and go lalala whenever the religious are doing things other than molesting children and fighting the infidels.

 

[Saviordd1]

I think I can understand most people's motives, even if I don't share them. But I will never understand people who deny themselves happiness in some way.

I can speak for this one.

Being one of these people and having a friend who's the same its mostly self esteem or some sort of self hatred. Occasionally its also the fact that some people seriously love being unhappy.

I don't understand people who do things 'out of the goodness of their heart'. There's no profit for the doer, unless the doer has the ideas of favours in mind, it just seems illogical to me.

Understandable but for those of us who do that we do get something out of it, the idea that you made someone happier.

OT: I don't understand any of the ists. Racist, sexist, or homophobic (Not an ist technically but shut up) we are all people, why should anyone be treated like less then a person for being who they are? (I'm looking at you Rick Perry)

 

[GrimGrimoire]

This is turning into something that looks like a flame war. Hm, I for some reason, love reading all these comments regarding religion. I'm constantly trying to find new arguments made between theists and atheists. so far it's getting good

look... whats the point? All the debate boils down to is points that are so insanely subjective that it becomes a waste of time even attempting to use one of them as an argument. The arguments overlap each other, canceling each other out because they have little to no bearing on solid logic and reason. The only bearing they truly have are their significance to the person using the arguments "This value is more important then that value" kind of thing. How it feels to you. It becomes an opinion, and nothing more.

Religion isn't the cause of millions of deaths, it's us. We created religion. blame the people using it for selfish reasons instead of the religion itself. Religion is a blank slate, and like many other things, it can be morphed in ways that can benefit, or hurt others. We should be using it for the betterment of society, but there are a lot of people who use and abuse religion to insane levels. We are the most advanced species on the planet, and yet we are scared religion (to clarify, the extreme kind) will corrupt us all.

Now... if any escapist wishes to, reply on my stance. Would like to here if I've missed a point, or something is off. I'd also like to know if you disagree. Don't hold back

I've read through this entire thread, now...

... and every time I saw one of these folks bring up religion, I cringed. Religious folks, and I say this referring to -real- religious folks... not the kind that talk the good talk and then go on to use their faith to justify bigotry and persecution by treating anyone that disagrees like an uncivilized barbarian, are generally good folks. They're not deluded. They're not idiots. They're not whack jobs. They're people who believe in something because they cannot fathom things working in a different way.

I often tell people who talk to me in a civilized manner about religion that "Yes, I believe in a God. But -my- God was a scientist".

I also suspect that we were once infinitely more civilized and advanced technologically than we are now... but I don't try to ramrod that suspicion down anyone else's throat just like I wouldn't want someone to impose their faith upon me. It's good to have things to believe in. Folks can talk all they want about 'weak wills needing faith'... but faith comes from WITHIN. We have the propensity for it, because we are programmed to. Because we're wired to believe in things... to see things... to try to make meaningful connections.

For some people that's cold, hard rationality. For others... it's mysticism and belief and magic. And you know what? That's GREAT! It's a wonderful thing! It's a great big, amazing universe we live in... and if you can't cope with the scope or the size or the reality... than I don't care WHAT you have to think. Go right on ahead and think it. Because there's so much of it, if you don't want to be crushed under the weight of it all... I don't blame you.

But me, I love to absorb myself in it. I study religions. I study doctrine, and philosophy. They're all tools of the human mind.


And what I don't... what I can't... what I -refuse- to justify with thought... is the idea that people are so willfully ignorant that they can't see the roles that these things play. We don't need to abolish faith to allow reason to expand and grow. We don't need every person who THINKS to find faith.

What we need are people who know how to put their differences aside and COMMUNICATE.

All the logic, all the faith, all the understanding in the universe won't make up for the failures of communication which currently lead us down a dark road to our ultimate demise.

So hey! While the atheists and the Christians and the Muslims and the Jews... while the Scientologists and the Quakers and the... er... 'isms' over there in Asia... while all those folks' loud, obnoxious cousins are busy duking it out over the age of the world... let's find some fellow minds with a SMALL spark of imagination left in 'em, and get to work on LEAVING this damn rock! We need to get out there, and we need to make it a priority. We're squandering resources at far too great a rate to justify dragging our feet now.

A great post, and a good answer!
Faith, or lack of it, is just one way ot understand the world. For in the end, it all boils down to all induviduals beeing different.
I myself am an atheist, a follower of what you call "cold" realism, and while I might never truly understand religious people, I know and have the uttermost respect for my fellow humans.
For that is what they are, firstly humans and then people of faith.
Example: I have always been standing for my point of view, and in the heat of discussion prehaps fallen to riddiculing my opponents views. (Never on religion, but on other forms of superstition).
But on the same time I know and greatly respect my local priest, having discussed with him and agreeing on some things.

I don't understand them, but that does not make them any less worth.
But if I have to hear another word from my classmates explaining natural phenomenoms with gosts, I will stand for my view, same as they with my flameshield raised high and my own flamethrower laying at the ready.
For only throught arguing might we find the other.

 

[amadhatter]

People who liked The Big Lebowski. I've seen it more than once, on and off drugs, still just don't get it.

 

[Zio_IV]

I can't for the life of me understand why video games companies (and I'm being very loose in using the term), keep releasing all that shovelware you see taking up most of the shelf space at your local game retailer. Who actually buys them, and are they really selling enough to keep making more of them? The world may never know...

 

[Evil Top Hat]

snip

snip

snip

snip

One thing I failed to make very clear (which many of you picked up on) is that the sort of crime I was reffering to is crime that is done PURELY for personal gain, such as theft, with no selfless intentions. Furhtermore, the kind of thing I had in mind was crime commited where it wasn't neccesarrily needed, where the criminal was just trying to get a bit more money or satisfaction even though they may not have needed it. I shouldn't have overlooked the desperation argument so hastily before posting, I understand your point, but it was a stupid mistake of me not to make it clear what i really meant. "Selfishness" is probably what I should have said I didn't understand, to make it more specific.

Going to get suspended for this, but you're a moron.

So, you made an offensive quote for no constructive reason despite realising that doing so would net you a ban... and I'm the moron?

I can see why you would think my post to be stupid, it was a mistake on my part to overlook so many good and plainly obvious counter arguments, but there's no need to be childish about it.

 

[Thistlehart]

People who think fighting is important, who ridicule people for not having muscles or sucking at fighting. What the heck does it matter in this civilized society of ours?

I matters a lot, actually, because our society is not civilized. At least, it has not yet reached that level of civilization where violence does not happen. We are still as fractious and violent as we have always been. Understand that even in the most mellow city on the planet, there will be people that will turn to violence to solve their problems.

It is highly probable that at some point in a person's life, that person will have to deal with a violent situation they cannot get out of with good sense or a quick mind. If that person cannot respond physically, they will not come out on top. That is why being able to fight is important.

I'm sorry, but to state that people don't have to or shouldn't have to fight bespeaks a naive mind or a lack of understanding of our species. I, too, wish an end to violence, but I have accepted that it will never happen, at least in my lifetime.

 

[PhantomEcho]

This is turning into something that looks like a flame war. Hm, I for some reason, love reading all these comments regarding religion. I'm constantly trying to find new arguments made between theists and atheists. so far it's getting good

look... whats the point? All the debate boils down to is points that are so insanely subjective that it becomes a waste of time even attempting to use one of them as an argument. The arguments overlap each other, canceling each other out because they have little to no bearing on solid logic and reason. The only bearing they truly have are their significance to the person using the arguments "This value is more important then that value" kind of thing. How it feels to you. It becomes an opinion, and nothing more.

Religion isn't the cause of millions of deaths, it's us. We created religion. blame the people using it for selfish reasons instead of the religion itself. Religion is a blank slate, and like many other things, it can be morphed in ways that can benefit, or hurt others. We should be using it for the betterment of society, but there are a lot of people who use and abuse religion to insane levels. We are the most advanced species on the planet, and yet we are scared religion (to clarify, the extreme kind) will corrupt us all.

Now... if any escapist wishes to, reply on my stance. Would like to here if I've missed a point, or something is off. I'd also like to know if you disagree. Don't hold back

I've read through this entire thread, now...

... and every time I saw one of these folks bring up religion, I cringed. Religious folks, and I say this referring to -real- religious folks... not the kind that talk the good talk and then go on to use their faith to justify bigotry and persecution by treating anyone that disagrees like an uncivilized barbarian, are generally good folks. They're not deluded. They're not idiots. They're not whack jobs. They're people who believe in something because they cannot fathom things working in a different way.

I often tell people who talk to me in a civilized manner about religion that "Yes, I believe in a God. But -my- God was a scientist".

I also suspect that we were once infinitely more civilized and advanced technologically than we are now... but I don't try to ramrod that suspicion down anyone else's throat just like I wouldn't want someone to impose their faith upon me. It's good to have things to believe in. Folks can talk all they want about 'weak wills needing faith'... but faith comes from WITHIN. We have the propensity for it, because we are programmed to. Because we're wired to believe in things... to see things... to try to make meaningful connections.

For some people that's cold, hard rationality. For others... it's mysticism and belief and magic. And you know what? That's GREAT! It's a wonderful thing! It's a great big, amazing universe we live in... and if you can't cope with the scope or the size or the reality... than I don't care WHAT you have to think. Go right on ahead and think it. Because there's so much of it, if you don't want to be crushed under the weight of it all... I don't blame you.

But me, I love to absorb myself in it. I study religions. I study doctrine, and philosophy. They're all tools of the human mind.


And what I don't... what I can't... what I -refuse- to justify with thought... is the idea that people are so willfully ignorant that they can't see the roles that these things play. We don't need to abolish faith to allow reason to expand and grow. We don't need every person who THINKS to find faith.

What we need are people who know how to put their differences aside and COMMUNICATE.

All the logic, all the faith, all the understanding in the universe won't make up for the failures of communication which currently lead us down a dark road to our ultimate demise.

So hey! While the atheists and the Christians and the Muslims and the Jews... while the Scientologists and the Quakers and the... er... 'isms' over there in Asia... while all those folks' loud, obnoxious cousins are busy duking it out over the age of the world... let's find some fellow minds with a SMALL spark of imagination left in 'em, and get to work on LEAVING this damn rock! We need to get out there, and we need to make it a priority. We're squandering resources at far too great a rate to justify dragging our feet now.

A great post, and a good answer!
Faith, or lack of it, is just one way ot understand the world. For in the end, it all boils down to all induviduals beeing different.
I myself am an atheist, a follower of what you call "cold" realism, and while I might never truly understand religious people, I know and have the uttermost respect for my fellow humans.
For that is what they are, firstly humans and then people of faith.
Example: I have always been standing for my point of view, and in the heat of discussion prehaps fallen to riddiculing my opponents views. (Never on religion, but on other forms of superstition).
But on the same time I know and greatly respect my local priest, having discussed with him and agreeing on some things.

I don't understand them, but that does not make them any less worth.
But if I have to hear another word from my classmates explaining natural phenomenoms with gosts, I will stand for my view, same as they with my flameshield raised high and my own flamethrower laying at the ready.
For only throught arguing might we find the other.

Haha, I wanted to comment on this post of yours (and a few other folks who praised my response) by condensing my original thought into a smaller, more concise one. Ironically enough, the act of replying to your post by quoting it... and subsequently my own, actually only served to make the post larger.

That being said, here is the best way to put it.

"It doesn't take a God, or faith, to make a man a zealot."

We've all got a zealot in us... just waiting for the right cause to support. Some of us, thankfully, never find it. Others turn to faith. Others turn to a lack of faith. Others turn to XBOX. Others turn to PS3. The list is too numerous to count.

But when that zealot comes out, it redefines us. We become defined by our ideals and ideology rather than our actions and our merits. We begin associating ourselves with a cause, rather than as a stand-up individual.

And lastly, we stop listening to what other people have to say as scholars.

Instead, we 'hear them out' as the opposition, before launching a counter.

 

[Whoatemysupper]

People who dye their hair.

I can handle nose rings, nipple piercings, earrings, belly-button rings, and tattoos, but dying your hair, or altering any aspect of your body that you were born with just doesn't feel right.

Same with any cosmetic surgery.

Piercings, why would you want to stab little holes in yourself to insert shiny things?

 

[tobyornottoby]

I can't for the life of me understand why video games companies (and I'm being very loose in using the term), keep releasing all that shovelware you see taking up most of the shelf space at your local game retailer. Who actually buys them, and are they really selling enough to keep making more of them? The world may never know...

If it wouldn't sell, why would it take up most of the shelf space?

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Foot, and scat fetishists. I have NO clue what people find attractive about these things, and I have no intention of ever finding out.

 

[orangebandguy]

Metal, I just can't understand what's so amazing about it and I can't get into it.

I know this place used to have a lot of metalheads, not sure about now though.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

People who hate and degrade women. I can't wrap my head around someone who belittles another person because she possesses a vagina. I don't get guys who yell at their girlfriends / wives / moms. I don't understand slut shaming. Really pisses me off when I hear of a guy doing it and it lowers my opinion of him to nothing.