No Right Answer: Is Avatar an Anime?

Lightknight

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Pickapok said:
Anime is not a style, there are thousands of anime out there and many of them have a distinct look and feel to them. You can't possibly tell me that a screenshot from Monster looks like it could come from Ouran High School Host Club or that a Gurren Lagann screenshot wouldn't be out of place in Full Metal Panic.
So... if I prance over to google and type in "Anime Definition" I'm not going to get something like:

"a style of Japanese film and television animation, typically aimed at adults as well as children."

Anime is absolutely a style. The Last Airbender certainly borrows enough from them to warrant being described as being made in the style of Japanese television animation. Keep in mind that Anime is not purely an artistic style. There are other methods of story telling that are traditional to anime that transcends solely the look. There is a feel to it too. If the works you are describing do not look like Animes or feel like Animes then are they Animes as the term is currently being used? Or are they merely animes for the sole purpose of being Japanese-made animation?

What would you call it if not Anime? That wasn't really discussed. It certainly isn't traditional American animation.

FYI, it should be noted that the animation was done by three South Korean animation studios. JM Animation, DR Movie, and MOI Animation. So no, it isn't all made in America either. These are studios who have done a lot of Anime work. They've had work in IPs like Naruto, Inuyasha, Pokemon, Cowboy bebop, Ghost in the Shell, and a ton of others.

Are none of them now Anime shows/films because the studios are actually Korean? Sounds like shenanigans to me if you think that impacts their status.

Scars Unseen said:
Mahou shoujo(magical girl) is a genre. Mecha is a genre. Well technically those are both sub-genres of fantasy and sci-fi respectively. Anime is not a genre. Anime is a loan word used by the Japanese to describe animated works. Calling anime a genre is like calling "painting" an art style or "senator" a political faction.
Sorry, that's just the way language works. Because the art of Japanese animation had a particular style it is now synonymous with that style and is defined as such. Not sure it would a genre then either though. Genres are kinds of stories. General plot lines. Anime's as understood as a style can be used to cover any such genre.

However, if people are talking about the tone of such style and how those genres are being told in a way that would be traditionally unique to anime then it could be an adjective appended to the genre. Like an Anime Western or Anime Noire.
 

Darmani

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K12 said:
I've always thought that having a genre defined by its country of origin is kind of dumb. Something more limited like a Spaghetti western or Wuxia film makes some sense but Anime is way too broad.

How is it meaningful to consider "Spirited Away" and "Neon Genesis Evangelion" the same genre but Fullmetal Alchemist and Avatar to be different genres?

To be honest, my response to the "what genre is this?" question is almost always "who cares, is it any good?"
They share too many influences and bases to not warrant a distinction even if they are seperate. We have Spaghetti westerns, Geallo (sp?) films, Mexican films
They can be diverse or very similar. But Anime hasa distinct market and production culture and factor of influences. BUT at least now.. we should know it isn't "superior" to western, european, or other works.

Many generes and tropes, and comments and actors, and producers are uniqueor at least emergent from anime not to talk about it it as a thing simeilar to pulp, Sword and Sorcery and so on
 

Entitled

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Scarim Coral said:
I know, that why I said most anime have some band singing in the intro and outro.
Well, than it's not much of a help as a definitional criteria, we might as well say that Avatar is also one of those few that doesn't.

Casual Shinji said:
It's generally the culture that permeates from anime that makes it "anime". There's plenty of anime that don't have the traditional anime style that still feel very much like anime because of the way it moves and tells its story.

Avatar has the anime look, but it feels like a Western animation in just the way it carries itself.

Ultimately the distinction is there to make it clear you're about to watch a cartoon from Japan with Japanese sensibilities.
That's another very true point. Even when a show is called "animesque" by laymen at a first glance, there are plenty of differences both in animation technique, (on far subtler details than just "they have big eyes, lol"). Japanese art is a lot more heavily based on showing off an aesthetic usage of your tools and arrangement of your building blocks, while western art cares a lot more about verisimilitude, suspending disbelief, and an invisible "fourth wall". That shows in lip synching, backround art, framerates, character designs, etc.

The same is true for narratives. You can also feel that in JRPGS, Visual Novels, and manga as well, after consuming dozens of them and then one english-based one, there is just so much distinctly western thought in it's morality, it's emotions, it's sense of humor, that it feels like it's own genre.
 

Darmani

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Part of it is something basic as frames of animation (on the twos I think is a critical referenceO)
 

Pickapok

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Lightknight said:
So... if I prance over to google and type in "Anime Definition" I'm not going to get something like:

"a style of Japanese film and television animation, typically aimed at adults as well as children."

Anime is absolutely a style. The Last Airbender certainly borrows enough from them to warrant being described as being made in the style of Japanese television animation. Keep in mind that Anime is not purely an artistic style. There are other methods of story telling that are traditional to anime that transcends solely the look. There is a feel to it too. If the works you are describing do not look like Animes or feel like Animes then are they Animes as the term is currently being used? Or are they merely animes for the sole purpose of being Japanese-made animation?

What would you call it if not Anime? That wasn't really discussed. It certainly isn't traditional American animation.

FYI, it should be noted that the animation was done by three South Korean animation studios. JM Animation, DR Movie, and MOI Animation. So no, it isn't all made in America either. These are studios who have done a lot of Anime work. They've had work in IPs like Naruto, Inuyasha, Pokemon, Cowboy bebop, Ghost in the Shell, and a ton of others.

Are none of them now Anime shows/films because the studios are actually Korean? Sounds like shenanigans to me if you think that impacts their status.
First of all, anime is both singular and plural. "Animes" is not a word.

Secondly, just because something is animated in Korea does not make it Korean. An anime animated in Korea is still produced by a Japanese company therefore it is Japanese. What you are suggesting is akin to saying that Nike makes Chinese shoes because the shoes are made in China.

And lastly I protest any definition that labels anime as a "style."

"2. a distinctive appearance, typically determined by the principles according to which something is designed."

You cannot point to any individual anime and say, definitively, that it exemplifies the anime "style" because anime has just as many if not more unique artistic styles in anime and manga as there are in western cartoons and comics. To say otherwise would express a profound ignorance in the sheer variety of anime on the market. You will never have somebody confuse Legend of the Galactic Heroes for Code Geass.
 

Entitled

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Lightknight said:
So... if I prance over to google and type in "Anime Definition" I'm not going to get something like:

"a style of Japanese film and television animation, typically aimed at adults as well as children."
You would, but that definition would be written by idiots.

Lightknight said:
Sorry, that's just the way language works. Because the art of Japanese animation had a particular style it is now synonymous with that style and is defined as such.
Well, THAT is certainly not how language works.

If tomorrow, we would do a poll, and it would turn out that 80% of the world's population agree that video games are "those things where you shoot enemies in the face on the TV with a controller", that wouldn't mean that Civilization is suddenly no longer a video game. Just because it's BELIEVED by ignorant mobs that gaming has a particular style restricted to shooting things in the face, doesn't actually make it so.

An established community's consistent, and regularly used jargon, trumps the vague feelings and assumptions of ten times as many people who have no idea what the hell they are talking about.

Animenewsnetwork and myanimelist, are a lot more authoritive on what is and isn't anime, than the vernacular is, much in the same way as the DSM-5 is more authoritive on whether or not you are "like, so OCD", than the simple fact that most people would say so.
 

remnant_phoenix

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Here's a thought:

Let's put less emphasis on labels and more emphasis on appraising the value of the individual work in question.

Problem solved.
 

hentropy

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Avatar is Jack Daniels. For those that don't know, there's always been this thing about Jack Daniels. It in many ways exemplifies the classic American-style aged corn-based whiskey- bourbon. However, it is not "Bourbon" because bourbon comes from Kentucky, and Jack is proudly from Tennessee.

This is different from pizza (which I'm sure someone has pointed out really doesn't belong to Italy), because bourbon- like champagne or scotch is defined not just by a style but by a particular region. But that doesn't stop people unconcerned with technicalities from calling it whatever they want.

Part of the problem is that these western cartoons made in a style similar to anime don't have their own distinct name. When people started imitating blues and added their own style to it, they called it Rock & Roll or Rockabilly in the earlier days. Right now there might not be enough of them (just Avatar, Korra, maybe the Boondocks/Black Dynamite) to really warrant its own name, but I would say that would be the best way to bridge the gap. Anna-May? Wanime?
 

SNCommand

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coheedswicked said:
I really like Chris's pizza analogy. If it has all the elements of a pizza it's a pizza whether it's made in Italy or not.

However there are some things where region does matter, like Champagne, it is a sparkling white wine from the Champagne region of France. Sparkling white wine from anywhere else is just called sparkling white wine.

So this begs the question is anime pizza or champagne? Next weeks debate?
The funny thing about the champagne analogy is that while you're correct that the only true champagne comes from champagne, almost everyone calls it champagne wherever it might come from, because if it looks like champagne, smells like champagne, and tastes like champagne, most people will generally call it for champagne
 

Atmos Duality

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*sigh* I'm just asking pedants to fill my inbox for this but...

My Unofficial Anime Taxonomy: Creative Work -> Visual Medium (with audio) -> Motion Picture -> Animation (Produced Images) -> Japanese origin (both by location and culture)

Allows for a wide variety of artistic styles, like traditional animation, but trends toward detailed individual images with limited animation. Heavy Japanese influences for obvious reasons, but work does not necessarily have to reflect Japan, Japanese beliefs or Japanese culture directly.

Avatar utilizes stylistic elements common to many anime, but since there is no one definitive style for anime, it fails the classification.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Anime is a catch all phrase for animated shows from japan, its genre-less and tends to be consumable by adults ,teens and kids. Cartoons tend to be made for kids, sometimes they are consumable by adults/teens.

In Japan its anime, in the West Anime is from Japan, so its a Western made animated show is a cartoon. Tho if you expand Anime to animation to something that is consumed by Adults,teens and kids it could easily be anime.
 

laggyteabag

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The definition of anime according to Wikipedia is: "Anime are Japanese animated productions usually featuring hand-drawn or computer animation.".

Both[footnote]Aside from Book 2, episodes 1-7 of The Legend of Korra, but I will get onto the momentarily.[/footnote] Avatar series are animated by Studio Mir, a Korean animation studio, and as a result, they are not anime. They may be Western cartoons in a Japanese animated style, but by the definition, neither series is an anime.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut if we are going on technicalities, The Legend of Korra: Book 2 - Spirits, episodes 1-7 are by definition, an anime. These episodes are not animated by Studio Mir, but are actually animated by Studio Perriot (Located in Tokyo, Japan) of Naruto and Bleach fame. That makes this half a season anime but but the other half of Book 2 as well as Books 1,3 and 4 a cartoon.

That being said, I do still call both Avatar series an anime because it is they look a hell of a lot like an anime, and calling the series "A western written and produced, Korean animated cartoon" is a hell of a mouthful to say. It is just easier regardless of what it actually, technically is.

On another note, frankly I would say that "anime" carries a lot less negative connotations than "cartoon". When I think of "cartoon" I instantly think of Spongebob, and I dont think that "cartoon" really gives Avatar justice.
 

Chris Pranger

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2cool4u said:
I haven't watched the video, but I know this weird trick that can answer the question with scientific certainty! But what is this weird trick, I hear you ask? It's quite simple, I say. It only consists in answering a simple question, whether a certain work of animation is made in Japan or not. Easy as pie, you say! So, without further ado, let's put it to work.

Is Avatar made in Japan? No.

Therefore it's not an anime.

There, I answered your deep philosophical question that gripped your mind for centuries. Now go find a job, you nerd.
We...all have jobs? And just do this show as a hobby? So...done? I guess?
 

Chris Pranger

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schmulki said:
So...no winner, yet again. Show's already slipped to the point where no one else watches it with me, and I'm quickly losing hope....
Hey! Funny story! That sounds like us every time we film! Good to know we're not alone. :)
 

Pickapok

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Laggyteabag said:
Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut if we are going on technicalities, The Legend of Korra: Book 2 - Spirits, episodes 1-7 are by definition, an anime. These episodes are not animated by Studio Mir, but are actually animated by Studio Perriot (Located in Tokyo, Japan) of Naruto and Bleach fame. That makes this half a season anime but but the other half of Book 2 as well as Books 1,3 and 4 a cartoon.
It we are going by technicalities, that's wrong. Where the series is animated doesn't matter. What matters is where the series is produced. Avatar was produced by Nickelodeon, an American company.
 

Chris Pranger

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I have a question to piggyback on my original debate:

If a show like Futurama or South Park do an homage to anime by changing the art style or tone, and everyone can identify that as "spoofing or homaging an anime," how in the hell is that possible unless anime has a clear style? If the definition of anime as "only coming from Japan" is what people want to cling to for dear life, then by that logic it is physically impossible for spoofs or homages to exist. But they do. So we're living in a world of paradoxes as a result.

My original question of "is Avatar an anime" is still fair as long as we can point to cases where western animation have clearly spoofed an identifiable style.
 

laggyteabag

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Pickapok said:
Laggyteabag said:
Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut if we are going on technicalities, The Legend of Korra: Book 2 - Spirits, episodes 1-7 are by definition, an anime. These episodes are not animated by Studio Mir, but are actually animated by Studio Perriot (Located in Tokyo, Japan) of Naruto and Bleach fame. That makes this half a season anime but but the other half of Book 2 as well as Books 1,3 and 4 a cartoon.
It we are going by technicalities, that's wrong. Where the series is animated doesn't matter. What matters is where the series is produced. Avatar was produced by Nickelodeon, an American company.
I'm kinda just going by the Wikipedia definition which states that "Anime are Japanese animated productions usually featuring hand-drawn or computer animation."

I took that as "If it is animated in Japan, it is an anime", but frankly I just kinda went with it seeing as it was the first definition that I came across, and I am lazy like that. I could very well be wrong about that, but in my defense, the actual definition of what an anime actually is seems to vary depending on where you look.
 

coheedswicked

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SNCommand said:
coheedswicked said:
I really like Chris's pizza analogy. If it has all the elements of a pizza it's a pizza whether it's made in Italy or not.

However there are some things where region does matter, like Champagne, it is a sparkling white wine from the Champagne region of France. Sparkling white wine from anywhere else is just called sparkling white wine.

So this begs the question is anime pizza or champagne? Next weeks debate?
The funny thing about the champagne analogy is that while you're correct that the only true champagne comes from champagne, almost everyone calls it champagne wherever it might come from, because if it looks like champagne, smells like champagne, and tastes like champagne, most people will generally call it for champagne
Which is what makes it the perfect analogy. Any casual passerby would take one look at the animation style and say "hey look an anime" much the same way someone would look at a sparkling white and say "hey look champagne".

If met with the response from an anime snob: "actually it's not an anime because it's not actually from Japan" the casual viewer would say something like "ok" or "whatever" much like if they were met with the response from a wine snob "actually it's not from Champagne so it's not Champagne".

It is the same.
 

Entitled

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Chris Pranger said:
I have a question to piggyback on my original debate:

If a show like Futurama or South Park do an homage to anime by changing the art style or tone, and everyone can identify that as "spoofing or homaging an anime," how in the hell is that possible unless anime has a clear style?
Stereotypes.

It's like spoofing "hollywood movies" through a parody of a Michael Bay-esque CGI-heavy summer blockbuster sci-fi.

Or spoofing "YA literature" through a teenage girl's struggles in a dystopian world ran by a dictatorical high school allegory.

Or parodying "video games" through a modern military shooter with a gruff, stubbled white dude protagonist.

Certain more casual audience members might think that these are defining, obligatory attributes of their whole respective labels, but what they are actually spooding are specific genres, that happen to be more popular than the others inside their label, and with more mainstream recognition.

In the case of anime, it's the genre of shonen "battle manga" adaptations. Naruto, Bleach, Drangon Ball, etc. These all are based on manga running in the same magazine, Shonen Jump, intentionally fitting into the same very specific style, that is not at all similar to an anime horror, or an anime space opera.
 

NiPah

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It's the same reason Futurama, Simpsons, and Family guy are known as American cartoons even though a majority of the production is made in South Korea:
It's made for an American audience.

Anime is made for a Japanese market, that's where it gets it's primary funding from and that's the market the investors are targeting when they fund the show.

Awhile ago they made the old Batman cartoons in Japan because it was cheaper, they have a distinct style but they're still American cartoons since it was made for an American audience.

Avatar is an American cartoon since it was made for an American audience.

Sure it's not a perfect definition, and you can always debate exactly which market they had in mind when making it, but it works.