No Right Answer: Is Avatar an Anime?

[Simple logic]

I would like all the people who say anime can ONLY be from Japan answer me this, because this is REALLY confusing me. If anime can only be from Japan and Japan was destroyed tomorrow, would anime be dead? No more anime? What if some Japaneses animators who were making a popular anime in Japan and some how survived and made it to Australia, or the US and started making that same series in a new country, would it still be anime or would it not qualify since it was not made in Japan?
Why can't someone outside of Japan make a type of animation , like Samurai Jack or Avatar, that fits many if not all the same cultural benchmarks of anime and call it an anime?
All this talk about it is only anime if some Japanese guy in Japan working for a Japanese studio who speaks, belches, and drools only in Japanese makes NO, repeat, NOOOOOOOO sense to me. Would it be anime if a bunch of animators from the UK flew over to Japan and made a random cartoon? No! Of course not. That are a whole slew of fine points that make an anime an anime!
Please people answer my paragraph question with some clarity so I can understand this nonsense that is being spouted.

Often in the write,

Simple Logic

 

[leviadragon99]

The more important question...

Who cares?

It's a good show either way, getting caught up in ultimately meaningless semantics seems like missing the point to me.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I would like all the people who say anime can ONLY be from Japan answer me this, because this is REALLY confusing me. If anime can only be from Japan and Japan was destroyed tomorrow, would anime be dead? No more anime? What if some Japaneses animators who were making a popular anime in Japan and some how survived and made it to Australia, or the US and started making that same series in a new country, would it still be anime or would it not qualify since it was not made in Japan?
Why can't someone outside of Japan make a type of animation , like Samurai Jack or Avatar, that fits many if not all the same cultural benchmarks of anime and call it an anime?
All this talk about it is only anime if some Japanese guy in Japan working for a Japanese studio who speaks, belches, and drools only in Japanese makes NO, repeat, NOOOOOOOO sense to me. Would it be anime if a bunch of animators from the UK flew over to Japan and made a random cartoon? No! Of course not. That are a whole slew of fine points that make an anime an anime!
Please people answer my paragraph question with some clarity so I can understand this nonsense that is being spouted.

Often in the write,

Simple Logic

Your logic is too simple. That's what happens when you only look at arguments on the surface. When someone says that anime is a cartoon from Japan, they are likely implying that this is so because that's where the Japanese people and culture are. It is unlikely that they mean that Japan is a mystical land that magically infuses anything created within its borders with "the Japanese spirit." Just like you wouldn't get a British rock band by having Rammstein record in London.

Now to answer your question, if Japan were destroyed somehow and animators escaped to another country, whatever they created afterward would likely be largely unrecognizable when compared to animations made in Japan today. It would almost have to be. They would be writing for a different demographic, in a completely different environment, and... oh yes, they would have just survived the destruction of their homeland and culture. Imagine the ending episodes of Evangelion. Now instead of the change in direction occurring due to failing finances, a failing marriage and growing depression, imagine that Hideaki Anno had just survived the Japanese Holocaust. Could change his perspective a bit.

In closing, when people say that anime is animation made in Japan, that's really shorthand for "Japan has a distinct culture. Just as American creative works are strongly influenced by the creators, the workers and the target audience, so it is in Japan. Take away any of that - the creative minds behind the work, the workers themselves, or the culture of the target audience - and the end product is going to change. It is no longer the same thing. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but it is imitation none the less."

It just so happens that Japan is the most likely place to find Japanese directors, producers, animators, and market of significant size. So anime is animation made in Japan.

And that still puts Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust in a weird place, categorically.

 

[Simple logic]

First let me thank you for your answer Scars Unseen. With all that said then you can then have a "western" anime still be anime. If someone is in love with, has great respect for, and knowledge of the japans culture and that is reflected in the art and story telling, then one can have an anime. My logic for this? It goes back to my question which you answered so expertly. It is all about culture and how that art is expressed through that culture.
That being the case if an cartoon expresses those cultural ideals in their work then it does not matter where the art comes from. If India ceased to exist tomorrow I am sure somewhere someone would make a Bollywood movie somehow.
What does this all have to do with the argument at hand dear forum crawlers? Avatar The last air bender may not have been produced in japan, nor was it made by some Japanese guys, BUT it did hold values and ideals of that culture. Same with Samurai Jack. Both these shows were products of the Western media, yet somehow they brought with them and expressed through their art the great things about the culture they presented. True neither of these shows had tentacle porn, but we have to leave somethings to the Japanese.

Often in the write,

Simple logic

 

[tzimize]

I haven't watched the video, but I know this weird trick that can answer the question with scientific certainty! But what is this weird trick, I hear you ask? It's quite simple, I say. It only consists in answering a simple question, whether a certain work of animation is made in Japan or not. Easy as pie, you say! So, without further ado, let's put it to work.

Is Avatar made in Japan? No.

Therefore it's not an anime.

There, I answered your deep philosophical question that gripped your mind for centuries. Now go find a job, you nerd.

We...all have jobs? And just do this show as a hobby? So...done? I guess?

Entertaining me on your spare time. If thats not a christmas miracle I dont know what is. Thanks man, and to the rest of the team as well. Merry christmas!

OT: Avatar is a cartoon in an anime style.

 

[loa]

Why is anime a sepparate thing from "cartoon/animation" again?
It was an useful distinction back in the dark ages when anime was literally the only animation that dared to try and tell mature stories whereas cartoons are "for kids" but surely we grew out of that?
It literally means the same thing in another language and is in no way an unique creation of japan.

It's like arguing whether or not this soup can be "suppe". Just... why?

 

[DarkhoIlow]

Anime = animated cartoons created by japanese studios. American cartoons aren't made by japanese therefore it's not anime simple as that.

 

[RandV80]

First of all, I could really care less about the topic debate. But I just got into Avatar, started watching with this Legend of Korra season when it started and over the last two weeks went through it's first few seasons.

The creators are obviously taking a lot from Japanese animation, specifically the serialized format which has never really been adopted in Western cartoons. Yet there are some distinct cultural quirks between general Japanese animation (at least for this target audience) and Legend of Korra. For example, the Japanese shows are full of sexual innuendo and arousal, but tend to avoid characters having actual relationships. In Korra the characters openly hook up and date each other, there isn't a hint of any sexy time or arousal going on.

There are a number of little things like that going on. Not sure how or if that effects the discussion at all, but just thought it was interesting.

Also I've seen it brought up a number of times that it's animated by Korean studios... really wish they'd start making their own 'anime', I find these days I enjoy Korean 'webtoons' more than I do Japanese manga. There's a ton of great material to work with there.

 

[FateWitch13]

Anime is from Japan.
The art, storytelling and ideas in Avatar are "anime-esque".
It's like a German director borrowing the look and feel of 70's Italian Cinema. It would still be a German film, regardless of what it wants to emulate.

 

[Entitled]

And if there was an Anime Pope, you'd have an argument.

And if there was a scientific branch dealing with anime, you'd have a point. Unfortunately, all you have is a couple really weak appeals to authority.

I've made two diverse analogies that demonstrate the principle that niche definitions can trump the vernacular as the orrect meaning.

If "your case is not EXACTLY like the analogies" would be a point against that, you would have an argument.

If you think I care in any sense relevant to that, you're already reading too much into this. But also, you might want to consider use of the term "wine snob," and how that might have impacted the use of "anime snob. Pedantry doesn't help you here, it "simply further demonstrates you have issues with the language.

What I'm saying is exactly that you are seeing too much into a pedantic debate that is largely between people who are both Avatar fans, and anime fans. You find vague similarities to common gaming elitism debates (OMG, someone just used the word "outsiders"!) and misapply the reasons why those were troubling.

It'd be more like if we excluded "games girls like" or "casual games," but I can see why the more even explanation wouldn't help your argument much. This is a retroactive exclusion that doesn't work in two countries. It'd be the equivalent of deciding that films had to be made in America to count as movies.

Except that it's not retroactive. "Anime is japanese animation" has been consistently used by the fandom for decades. You could go back to the 80s to ask someone whether Avatar would be anime, or ask an anime fan who has never been to the Internet, and you would get the same results, unlike with gamers making up exclusive labels that are blatantly made up after the fact of online hating a particular group.

It'd be the equivalent of deciding that "Hollywood movies" had to be made in America to count as Hollywood movies.

Ultimately, anime fans won't just acknowledge that they have been doing it wrong for decades, and actually their self-identified fandom shouldn't have included Monster ad Mushishi, but should have inclded Avatar and Samurai Jack, since those have "the style" that the majority decided to call anime.

 

[CaptainBill22]

The difference between anime and western cartoons is the same difference between whiskey and scotch. Scotch is a type of whiskey, but in order to be scotch it has to be made in Scotland.

 

[go-10]

the real answer is. Who cares as long as it's good!

 

[Entitled]

if, for example, "anime" was a term that was strictly defined in American (or Western, no need for US to hog all the fun), they'd have an argument.

It's strange that "animation produced by Japan" is not a strict enough definition for you, but "any anymation in the style of a bunch of other animation that are in the style of each other according to general consensus", is.

If anything, the latter seems to be a lot more fluid and arbitrary. Even if we were to accept that Anime is a style, one could always argue that Avatar is not *sufficiently* similar to it, it has too many western elements, or on the other hand that even My Little Pony is basically an anime.

My real problem is not which one is more "strict", but that the latter feels hypocritical. It's one thing to be "That Guy" and tell other people that they have gotten their in-group jargon and self-identification labels all wrong. It might even be necessary, if the group's labels are motivated by hate or arrogance, such as hardcore gamers (although the Anime fandom doesn't seem to be).

But when you are trying to pass this off as being more inclusive than them, and giving diversity a chance, yet actually your popular consensus based terminology just narrows down the fandom to a single stereotypical genre out of the many that they consume, that just defeats it's own purpose.

 

[Entitled]

What does this all have to do with the argument at hand dear forum crawlers? Avatar The last air bender may not have been produced in japan, nor was it made by some Japanese guys, BUT it did hold values and ideals of that culture. Same with Samurai Jack.

Er, not really. They are vaguely inspired by asian culture, but it's comparable to how anime itself was inspired by Disney, how Lord of the Rings was inspired by scandinavian mythology, or like the video said, how rock was inspired by blues. Based on, but distincly different.

When someone creates a work of art, that has decades of personal socialization, and centuries of cultural tradition, behind it. You can't just take a look at the way art is produced on the other side of the globe, decide to really like it, and claim to be a prime example of continuing it. You can IMITATE it, and there is nothing wrong with that, but that's how new genres form: by partially attempting to imitate another, but also adding your own conscious and subconscious cultural heritage to it.

In terms of visual design, just look at Avatar's cast: They all have uniquely shaped bodies, slightly different skin tones even if they are in the same ethnicity, detailed facial expressions and lip synching, shading effects. In anime, even a praticularly high budget one would work with changing around the same basic tempelate figure with diffferent hair and eye styles (each signifying established tropes), and putting a lot more efort into the background art, and showing off aesthetic choices, than into pretending that their drawn puppets truly exist behind a fourth wall. This is the result of a deep philosophical difference in art, that can be observed in the difference between classical western and Japanese paintings, but even in tanka and haiku, vs. western poetry, bunraku, noh, and kabuki, vs western theatre, and in Japanese vs. western gardening.

The same goes for narratives. Japanese media is driven forward by thousand-year-old assumptions about the concepts of duty, romance, authority, sexuality, beauty, family, evil, religion, art, and so on, that we might try to vaguely understand, but will never identify with it as strongly as a person socialized in Japan will never fully identify with western attitudes after watching a few Hollywood movies.

 

[ryukage_sama]

discussion about a children's cartoon

I take offence to this, Avatar was clearly a teenage cartoon. Hell, Korra can actually be considered young adult material.

In the case of Avatar: The Last Airbender, and with a lot of media, the easiest way to determine the primary intended audience is to look at the age of the characters. It's that rule is applicable here, especially when you consider that the primary characters in Legend of Korra are older, trying to stay in sync with the 10-12 year olds that watched ATLA as it was coming out. Just remember, anyone can enjoy media regardless of who it is aimed at.

Also, teenagers are the exact people "young adult" fiction is aimed at. It's a branding thing.

 

[Ikajo]

If someone is in love with, has great respect for, and knowledge of the japans culture and that is reflected in the art and story telling, then one can have an anime.

I don't think it's possible to achieve that kind of understanding of a culture without actually being born into it. There will always be things that you wont understand by merely studying a culture. Somethings are ingrained in a society, those living in that society wont even reflect on those things. It's the small things that really makes the differences in societies apparent. Japan's culture have been evolving for centuries. Values, arts and politics have grown in a different way than Europe. No matter how much you study the country you wont be able to fully grasp how it has impacted their society.

In the case of Avatar, the creators have mixed different elements from different Asian cultures. The clothing is mostly Chinese and the bending is inspired from Chinese martial arts. Not Japanese ones. That's because the creators talked with a Kung Fu master. Chinese martial arts and Japanese martial arts developed differently. All modern Japanese martial arts is deprived from Bushido, the arts belonging to the samurai. Not so for the Chinese. There are actually very little of Japanese culture present in the universe of Avatar. The closest is the Kiyoshi warriors and even they are far from real Japanese culture, though they are borrowing from Kabuki theatre.

Which, together with Ukiyo-E, is what influenced modern manga in the first place. If you look at Kabuki and Ukiyo-E you will see a stark resemblance to manga. Since manga usually is the source material for anime they share common aspects.

I've studied Japanese and I studied Japanese history and culture. While I have allowed myself to be inspired, I wouldn't be able to create something that truly reflect it's society. There are still so many things I'm not aware of. You only see a small part of the iceberg after all.

 

[TristanBelmont]

Considering "anime" just means "animation"...

Yeah.

 

[OldNewNewOld]

How is there no right answer to the question whether or not Avatar is made in Japan?
Anime is basically Japanese cartoon. There is no difference. It has nothing to do with the style, plot or writing because there are so many different anime that their only connection is that all of them are drawn.
Avatar is not an anime.

 

[Avalanche91]

If it looks, talks and feels like an anime, you can forgive people for calling it an anime. Even if it's technically not.

 

[hawk533]

When someone creates a work of art, that has decades of personal socialization, and centuries of cultural tradition, behind it. You can't just take a look at the way art is produced on the other side of the globe, decide to really like it, and claim to be a prime example of continuing it. You can IMITATE it, and there is nothing wrong with that, but that's how new genres form: by partially attempting to imitate another, but also adding your own conscious and subconscious cultural heritage to it.

So are you telling me that Eminem isn't a rap artist, because he's not black and didn't deeply understand black culture? And is Darius Rucker (former lead singer of Hootie and the Blowfish) not a country singer (despite winning a New Artist Award from the Country Music Association) because he originally headed a rock band?

Cultures change and definitions have to change with them. Anime once was all animation that came from Japan, because all Japanese animation had a similar style and a shared culture. But as people have pointed out, there are many Japan-produced cartoons that are using western animation styles. And there are many US-produced cartoons using Japanese animation styles.

If you say all Japan-produced cartoons are anime, then what happens 100 years in the future? Would Japan-produced cartoons look anything like their cartoons from the 60s? And if they didn't, would they all still be lumped under the term "anime"? There would be no semantic benefit in doing that.