No Right Answer: Manliest Superhero Ever
- Thread starter Firefilm
- Start date
Based on the the fact that tis video was to prove that you fellows do read your comments, I'm going to take this opportunity to call Chris out on a mistake he made.
Near the beginning of the video you make the statement that "that Wonder Woman may be female in gender...", which is incorrect. Wonder Woman is female sexed, as in she is biologically a woman, gender refers to the way that society defines how a male or female sex individual is supposed to behave. It is a common mistake that someone's sex is the same as their gender, but that is the product of our culture which had created the dichotomous view of both sex and gender and that both should naturally match up. There is also the mistake view (especially when it comes to perceptions of the GLBT community) that if an individual doesn't match up with one, than they must be the other.
So how I feel the argument should have gone is this:
Wonder Woman, being female sexed, has taken on the role of what is socially defined as a male gender role and is therefore the manlier hero.
I feel the need to thank you Chris for giving me a chance to apply information I learned in my Gender, Sex, and Age Anthropology class to comic books.
Near the beginning of the video you make the statement that "that Wonder Woman may be female in gender...", which is incorrect. Wonder Woman is female sexed, as in she is biologically a woman, gender refers to the way that society defines how a male or female sex individual is supposed to behave. It is a common mistake that someone's sex is the same as their gender, but that is the product of our culture which had created the dichotomous view of both sex and gender and that both should naturally match up. There is also the mistake view (especially when it comes to perceptions of the GLBT community) that if an individual doesn't match up with one, than they must be the other.
So how I feel the argument should have gone is this:
Wonder Woman, being female sexed, has taken on the role of what is socially defined as a male gender role and is therefore the manlier hero.
I feel the need to thank you Chris for giving me a chance to apply information I learned in my Gender, Sex, and Age Anthropology class to comic books.
No, wonder woman clearly has a female gender. She considers herself female, she wears female clothing, everyone thinks of her as female, she even calls herself "wonder woman".magpie_girl said:
Again, you seem to be confusing "being tough" and "being male".
To clarify what I meant by that, I was more trying to point out the difference between the terms gender and sex. More specifically that sex is biological and gender is social.Yosarian2 said:
I think that Kyle's point about wonderwoman's weakness was valid, and chris's point with superman only being super on our planet doesn't really hold up since he goes like all over the universe so... I think this one is a tie.
I'm pretty sure you're supposed to pronounce KAMINA! In capitals. Like what I did here:Dhatz said:
In any case, I agree fully.ZexionSephiroth said:
Randomly came across the vid, and looks like it's ancccieeeenntt, but stuff it, I'm posting: (Ended up being quite long. My bad. I often get that.)
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@ Dudes Who Made Vid
The problem is that you probably grew up with the cartoon Superman, affected opinion, and likely the latest slew of effeminate writing in the comicverse/geekdom, combined by the whole feminist push to turn WW into a ninja'd hypermasculine subversion of roles, because it's bad when it's a man, but empowering when it's a woman. That whole deal. (I mean, I'll have to take you at your word that the 'Superman = Punk', 'WW = Kickass' is their genuine portrayal, since I've never been in the comic book culture, except sort of just recently.)
I grew up with my dad's 70s comics. And the Superman I grew up with in that one was (as Clark) basically a constantly repressed ubermale who (as Superman) punched meteors in the fucking face with the power of 10,000 testoteronovas, in between laser-welding a sagging bridge, and his next cup of coffee + ironic quip with Lois. The most iconic comic I remember was the one where he lost his powers, and he no longer felt the need to repress himself as Clark Kent, and so he was happy to scare the shit out of Steve Lombard (douchebag co-worker) for being a douchebag (kicked the dinner table on top of him or something while Steve cried like a *****), and let it all hang out, and generally was, as Lois put it "a lion" (Lois now being attracted to CK for the same reasons she was attracted to Superman. Hair-on-his chest masculinity.)
Superman is designed to be a hypermasculine power fantasy +/ Messiah (and anyone who's read the NT will notice that Jesus was a good guy (the best), but that didn't mean a "nice guy"). If Wonder Woman is more masculine than he is, it means the writers frakking SUCK. (Or have political concerns spilling over into their universe.)
His masculinity was exemplified by his incredible competency, there was no problem he couldn't fix. ('Men want to be him, women want to be with him', etc) There were jobs only Superman could do. Except instead of flat tires, he fixed broken faultlines, instead of fixing the plumbing, he reversed floods and tidal waves, instead of defending his family from muggers, he fought killer robots from outer space and saved the planet. He protected and defended all the people that depended on him. That is the masculine ideal blown out to cosmic proportions.
Superman was a super good dude, integrity, morality and all that, but back then, that basically meant a patriarch father alpha male type who fixes problems and sets people straight, not 'sensitive nice guy' type, except on those precious 'father listens to son' or 'cop teaches kids valuable lesson' type moments. If Wonder Woman pulled some shit on him, Superman would have put her in the corner or sent her packing, or wrapped her up in steel bars till she calmed down, that kind of thing. If Superman spoke, you listened, and hoped he wouldn't get mad (from the days when fathers would belt their kids, and kids knew it).
That's the Superman I remember. He's the manliest, because he's SUPPOSED to be the manliest. Anything else, is just bad writing. He's Hercules (mythical and Disney), Samson, Tarzan, Captain America, John Wayne, Hulk, Zeus, Jesus, farmboy, King Arthur and the Wrath of God all rolled into one, depending on what particular story you're telling.
(I had never even heard the phrase 'big blue boy scout' until I discovered this whole world of online comicbook debate and the cartoons, so recently. That highlights the difference. The Superman I know isn't a "boy".)
If you grew up with a different Superman, well that sucks. You're missing out the most maxed out superhero of superheroes. Ain't nobody got shit on Superman.
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@ Dudes Who Made Vid
The problem is that you probably grew up with the cartoon Superman, affected opinion, and likely the latest slew of effeminate writing in the comicverse/geekdom, combined by the whole feminist push to turn WW into a ninja'd hypermasculine subversion of roles, because it's bad when it's a man, but empowering when it's a woman. That whole deal. (I mean, I'll have to take you at your word that the 'Superman = Punk', 'WW = Kickass' is their genuine portrayal, since I've never been in the comic book culture, except sort of just recently.)
I grew up with my dad's 70s comics. And the Superman I grew up with in that one was (as Clark) basically a constantly repressed ubermale who (as Superman) punched meteors in the fucking face with the power of 10,000 testoteronovas, in between laser-welding a sagging bridge, and his next cup of coffee + ironic quip with Lois. The most iconic comic I remember was the one where he lost his powers, and he no longer felt the need to repress himself as Clark Kent, and so he was happy to scare the shit out of Steve Lombard (douchebag co-worker) for being a douchebag (kicked the dinner table on top of him or something while Steve cried like a *****), and let it all hang out, and generally was, as Lois put it "a lion" (Lois now being attracted to CK for the same reasons she was attracted to Superman. Hair-on-his chest masculinity.)
Superman is designed to be a hypermasculine power fantasy +/ Messiah (and anyone who's read the NT will notice that Jesus was a good guy (the best), but that didn't mean a "nice guy"). If Wonder Woman is more masculine than he is, it means the writers frakking SUCK. (Or have political concerns spilling over into their universe.)
His masculinity was exemplified by his incredible competency, there was no problem he couldn't fix. ('Men want to be him, women want to be with him', etc) There were jobs only Superman could do. Except instead of flat tires, he fixed broken faultlines, instead of fixing the plumbing, he reversed floods and tidal waves, instead of defending his family from muggers, he fought killer robots from outer space and saved the planet. He protected and defended all the people that depended on him. That is the masculine ideal blown out to cosmic proportions.
Superman was a super good dude, integrity, morality and all that, but back then, that basically meant a patriarch father alpha male type who fixes problems and sets people straight, not 'sensitive nice guy' type, except on those precious 'father listens to son' or 'cop teaches kids valuable lesson' type moments. If Wonder Woman pulled some shit on him, Superman would have put her in the corner or sent her packing, or wrapped her up in steel bars till she calmed down, that kind of thing. If Superman spoke, you listened, and hoped he wouldn't get mad (from the days when fathers would belt their kids, and kids knew it).
That's the Superman I remember. He's the manliest, because he's SUPPOSED to be the manliest. Anything else, is just bad writing. He's Hercules (mythical and Disney), Samson, Tarzan, Captain America, John Wayne, Hulk, Zeus, Jesus, farmboy, King Arthur and the Wrath of God all rolled into one, depending on what particular story you're telling.
(I had never even heard the phrase 'big blue boy scout' until I discovered this whole world of online comicbook debate and the cartoons, so recently. That highlights the difference. The Superman I know isn't a "boy".)
If you grew up with a different Superman, well that sucks. You're missing out the most maxed out superhero of superheroes. Ain't nobody got shit on Superman.