No, you don't date rape/gay erase a character in Fire Emblem Fates

[Silvanus]

No you aren't, though it looks to me you are defending those that are doing so.

I'm speaking for myself. If I came across as doing anything else, I gave the wrong impression and apologise.

Of course, but it's one thing to think that his story about plants getting revenge on humanity neither riveting nor compelling, it's another to start claiming said story is actually about Martians battling aliens from Alpha Centauri, which is what the people who started this whole thing and those that continued to argue in favor of it in this thread have been doing:

- person start with incorrect facts
- strip out cultural context from a character
- assign own cultural spin and attributes to said character
- proceed to enrage at the game for what is essentially their own creation

If we're talking about demonstrably incorrect facts, that's another issue entirely, of course. My original post was in response to Jake Martinez arguing that Western critics are not offering valid criticism, because they "lack the appropriate cultural context to understand the tropes and societal norms at play here"-- those things being far more open to interpretation and criticism. If we don't like something for whatever reason, it shouldn't matter to us whether those things are more traditional or are the norm in another culture; we're trying to decide whether to buy it ourselves, after all.

EDIT: I'm starting to think I'm giving the wrong impression about my position here. I should clarify that I'm in agreement that we can't apply Western cultural context to the artistic output of another culture.

 

[Animyr]

Except it wasn't lesbianism or your western socially conservative context that was portrayed in the game, you may want to take off that Western Culture is Default for Planet Earth sunglass here.

I already went over this.

There's a difference between some western young adult cliché, and what is literally a social norm

I never claimed that the idea was present in exactly the same way in both cultures. Merely that it was present in both, at a basic level.

How dare those Japanese peasants game devs forget that their games need to be written solely for the pleasure of their glorious Western Imperial Master!!"

They don't have to do jack, I was never promised jack, and I never said otherwise. As much as you seem to wish that I had. All I said was that it would have been better if they had done it a different way. I never even said that Soleil demonstrated that the rest of the game was bad (I assume it's fine).

All I'm saying is that Soleils' character will rub some people the wrong way, for understandable reasons. Obviously most people are not going to care, and that's fine. But others have gone so far in the games defense that they claim that there is absolutely nothing amiss here whatsoever, and I don't think that's entirely true either. Even with the cultural context.

That being said, the game was apparently touted prior to release for featuring homosexual relationships. Disappointed expectations always cause the bitterest backlash.

The implications are laid bare by the OP and the game itself...but whatever.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

 

[kyp275]

If we're talking about demonstrably incorrect facts, that's another issue entirely, of course.... I'm starting to think I'm giving the wrong impression about my position here. I should clarify that I'm in agreement that we can't apply Western cultural context to the artistic output of another culture.

I think that's exactly what some people have done. They applied their own cultural context to the creation of another culture without understanding the original's. Like you said, people don't have to like another culture's tropes or their social norms, but IMO it's crossing a line when people go from not liking said trope/cultural norm to actively assigning their own intent/meaning to it over the original's.

I never claimed that the idea was present in exactly the same way in both cultures. Merely that it was present in both, at a basic level.

And you'd still be wrong. Your posts made it very clear that you viewed them through a strictly western sexualized LBGT lense, and proceeded to bash it after you designated western cultural attributes to it. Seriously, this has about as much similarity to your "I experimented in college" example as a monster truck has to a moped, but then anyone who understands where it came from would know that already.

Seriously, I was confused at first when I first saw the original complaints, but I knew instantly what the devs were doing once the actual description came out.

How dare those Japanese peasants game devs forget that their games need to be written solely for the pleasure of their glorious Western Imperial Master!!"

They don't have to do jack, I was never promised jack, and I never said otherwise. As much as you seem to wish that I had. All I said was that it would have been better if they had done it a different way. I never even said that Soleil demonstrated that the rest of the game was bad (I assume it's fine).

A Japanese game written by Japanese game devs for Japanese players would've been better if they had only adapted their culture to conformed to your western sensibilities?

All I'm saying is that Soleils' character will rub some people the wrong way, for understandable reasons.

It's understandable that some people will be ignorant. However, that doesn't make them any less ignorant.

Obviously most people are not going to care, and that's fine. But others have gone so far in the games defense that they claim that there is absolutely nothing amiss here whatsoever, and I don't think that's entirely true either. Even with the cultural context.

You can think whatever you want, but it'll continue to be a skewed view since you still don't understand said cultural context.

That being said, the game was apparently touted prior to release for featuring homosexual relationships. Disappointed expectations always cause the bitterest backlash.

It was, and it does have them. This is a completely manufactured outrage separate from that.

 

[Animyr]

And you'd still be wrong. Your posts made it very clear that you viewed them through a strictly western sexualized LBGT lense, and proceeded to bash it after you designated western cultural attributes to it. Seriously, this has about as much similarity to your "I experimented in college" example as a monster truck has to a moped, but then anyone who understands where it came from would know that already.

Congratulations for pointing out that they're present in different ways, which I already conceded. The basic idea of same-sex affections being something to be outgrown in favor of heterosexual relationships, which are presumed to be mature, is the same.

A Japanese game written by Japanese game devs for Japanese players would've been better if they had only adapted their culture to conformed to your western sensibilities?

It's understandable that some people will be ignorant. However, that doesn't make them any less ignorant.

Thank you for providing my rebuttal for me. Or do I have to explain the limits of cultural relativism?

Hypothetical question--if this game, and this romantic subplot had been made my Americans, and there was also a backlash, what would you think?

You can think whatever you want, but it'll continue to be a skewed view since you still don't understand said cultural context.

You seem to think that understanding must entail approval, and if one does not approve, one must not understand. But that's not true, and I understand the cultural context just fine. Again, I already went over this.

and it does have them. This is a completely manufactured outrage separate from that.

Erm, no, LGBT issues are very much at the heart of this controversy. People were hoping it would be a sexually progressive game when they heard it would have gay romance, and then we got this. If the other gay characters are fine that's great, but it doesn't change the issues with *this* character.

Are you trying to argue that Soleil is in no way a gay character and thus a separate issue? That's what you seem to be getting at here.

 

[Trude]

Ok that is fair. I don't think it un-creeps it because of the imagery involved and such, but that excuse dose address the core issue with secretly drugging someone. You get consent, but not informed consent and half is something. It never stops being dodgy, but it's better.

It's a culture thing. Japanese camaraderie is a LOT more open than just about anywhere else. To the Japanese, this sort of thing would not be seen as creepy as long as the intentions behind them were solid. Given what the dialogue says, I don't read it as anything more than trying to help a friend overcome something that is self-identified and want help in managing.
The relationships in If and Awakening follow the same routine of character A has a problem and the MU happens to overhear them and helps them overcome it. In this case it's a trait that is detrimental to Soleil's performance and she wants to learn to manage it.
Long story short, it's going to sound creepy if you're not used to the drastic measures the Japanese are willing to go to to help one another. I learned that the hard way a few years back.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Ok that is fair. I don't think it un-creeps it because of the imagery involved and such, but that excuse dose address the core issue with secretly drugging someone. You get consent, but not informed consent and half is something. It never stops being dodgy, but it's better.

It's a culture thing. Japanese camaraderie is a LOT more open than just about anywhere else. To the Japanese, this sort of thing would not be seen as creepy as long as the intentions behind them were solid. Given what the dialogue says, I don't read it as anything more than trying to help a friend overcome something that is self-identified and want help in managing.
The relationships in If and Awakening follow the same routine of character A has a problem and the MU happens to overhear them and helps them overcome it. In this case it's a trait that is detrimental to Soleil's performance and she wants to learn to manage it.
Long story short, it's going to sound creepy if you're not used to the drastic measures the Japanese are willing to go to to help one another. I learned that the hard way a few years back.

Oh, so I get to jump into the you must be this japan to criticize debate. It's nutty. I got to say from the perspective of an american (See the flag, wait do we have flags on this forum???) ,drugging someone's drink or really do anything extreme behind someone's back is a huge no no, doesn't matter your intention.

I guess the question here and in the entire thread is one of context. It's one of those times where you tell a story and your friends all look at you like you just grew horns and the only thing you can say is it's not that bad in context. Try as you might that augment never seems to work (as it doesn't seem to be working in this thread) the horns ant going back in. This still looks It might be OK in context, but we aren't in context. Best you tend to get is people just being understanding of it.

Should that work though. I mean what is the ideal when looking at context. It t fair to look at things out of context or in the wrong context? (Likely not.) Though things always get tricky because you can find several contexts to look at. You could just look at it as it's japan, they do japan things, but then you could put that in a larger context and say it's japan, they do japan things and thous japan things mean this. Have fun with that nesting doll.

 

[Trude]

drugging someone's drink or really do anything extreme behind someone's back is a huge no no, doesn't matter your intention.

And you have every right to be creeped out. I'm just tired of people misrepresenting benal stuff like this.

 

[kyp275]

Congratulations for pointing out that they're present in different ways, which I already conceded. The basic idea of same-sex affections being something to be outgrown in favor of heterosexual relationships, which are presumed to be mature, is the same.

Congratulations for showing your ignorance once again. They're not "presented in different ways", they're fundamentally different.

Unless, of course, you think that kids playing together = sexual relations.

Thank you for providing my rebuttal for me. Or do I have to explain the limits of cultural relativism?

read above.

Hypothetical question--if this game, and this romantic subplot had been made my Americans, and there was also a backlash, what would you think?

As there's nothing in American culture that remotely equates to this, the backlash would certainly be more understandable, as you can make a much better case that the elements in the story are in fact homophobic - however, for that very same reason, it's extremely unlikely that such a subplot would ever exist in the first place. You might as well be asking what the response to a pro-Japan WWII movie made in the US would be.

You seem to think that understanding must entail approval, and if one does not approve, one must not understand. But that's not true, and I understand the cultural context just fine. Again, I already went over this.

And you'd be wrong again. As I've said repeatedly in my posts to Silvanus, people can criticize all they want, there's no need for their approval. My problem is when people like you decide to assign meanings and innuedos where there was none. You keep saying you "understand the cultural context just fine", I see nothing in any of your posts that indicates this is the case.

Erm, no, LGBT issues are very much at the heart of this controversy. People were hoping it would be a sexually progressive game when they heard it would have gay romance, and then we got this. If the other gay characters are fine that's great, but it doesn't change the issues with *this* character.

Are you trying to argue that Soleil is in no way a gay character and thus a separate issue? That's what you seem to be getting at here.

Moving the goalpost much?

You said, and I quote: "That being said, the game was apparently touted prior to release for featuring homosexual relationships. Disappointed expectations always cause the bitterest backlash."

Fact: If you're playing as a male protagonist, you can marry a male support character.
Fact: If you're playing as a female protagonist, you can marry a female support character.

Which part of that means no gay marriage/romance to you?

Again, the "issue" with this character is ignorant westerners trying to manufacture outrage at their self-made case of injustice.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

Media from japan just has this weird duality to it. Your looking at things from two different angles. It often comes off very very gay and I like that (as do many), but on the other hand it's almost never actually meant to be gay. Your just looking at it wrong, but some times you just don't care what the intent was because you like your interpretation better.

 

[Animyr]

Congratulations for showing your ignorance once again. They're not "presented in different ways", they're fundamentally different. Unless, of course, you think that kids playing together = sexual relations.

I don't. This was exactly the difference I was referring too. My concern is that the end assurance that homosexual affections are for the young is the same (and I notice that you did not contest that). The japanese version gives far less wriggle room for what "homosexual affections" is permitted to entail and how long they are tolerated, yes, but they're still same-sex affections, and the assurance that they will pass is still present.

Well, gee. If we focus entirely on the obvious differences and conveniently ignore the likewise obvious similarities, they do look entirely different. You sure have me there.

What is more, Soleil's feelings towards the same sex are clearly not based on emotional connections or close friendship, but on physical appearance. So either this trope is irrelevant, or it's so flexible that it does indeed directly resemble it's American counterpart. Again, I already went over this on page 3.

As there's nothing in American culture that remotely equates to this, the backlash would certainly be more understandable, as you can make a much better case that the elements in the story are in fact homophobic

Because, knowing the American's cultural background, you'd question their motives?

My problem is when people like you decide to assign meanings and innuedos where there was none.

Are you saying that because they did not intend to cause offense, we should not take offense?

You keep saying you "understand the cultural context just fine", I see nothing in any of your posts that indicates this is the case.

Again, I'm getting the impression that it's agreement that you're looking for. As for understanding,

At the beginning of adolescence, there is a time when friendship is emphasized, usually junior high/middle school. These friendships can have very strong emotional bonds, and when two girls develop a close bond it will almost appear to be a romance. They hold hands. Getting together to do something is a "date." Fights are treated as a "break-up." They are not actually in a romantic relationship, nor will they ever be, it's just emphasized in such a way that if one were a boy, you'd assume this to be the case.

In Japan this is known as "Class S" and is far more common than in the West...This is considered a temporary but wonderful part of adolescence. They can then graduate from these friendships to "real" relationships with boys. To remain in a "Class S" relationship past middle school is seen as a sign of immaturity. It is expected that these friendships will continue into adulthood, but without the romantic elements.

That understanding enough for you?

Moving the goalpost much?

Clarifying them. The expectation of gay relationships did in fact come with the hope that they would be handled in a mature and, dare I say, progressive way. Having a gay relationship is no boon if it's handled in a condescending, stereotyped, cursory, or otherwise badly written manner. I'm sorry if that wasn't obvious.

I don't know about the other ones, but this one? Yeah.

Again, the "issue" with this character is ignorant westerners trying to manufacture outrage at their self-made case of injustice.

I'm not sure you're in any position to be complaining about people seeing injustice where there is none.