No, you don't date rape/gay erase a character in Fire Emblem Fates

[Redryhno]

You never played Civilization, don't you? I nuked MY OWN cities to win by CULTURAL VICTORY. Each and every quest hero steals everything that is not glued and this rarely even gets mentioned. In TES you can get away with pretty much ANYTHING and still end up as a hero. Noone ever bothers or calls anything out on those games. Examples are endless. And please, don't bother answering, I am no longer interested in this topic.

If you don't want to actually answer the question of "did the game present these things as good, you as a hero for doing them, and the victims as better off because of what you did to them" you could of just not responded, rather than go on about irrelevant nonsense.

Depends. You can murder an entire family in CK2 and be portrayed as the hero if you want considering the game doesn't judge much of anything and the narrative is all in your head. Civ games everybody is a hero and villain while also being neither. Reus you can simultaneously allow one civilization to wallow in the desert with no resources while giving all the wonderful things to the ocean people and still be the god they want you to be. the Souls series very rarely has a "right" solution to anything. Borderlands you're just as bad as the worst of bandits(don't even try to sugarcoat it), but you're praised for it because you're "their" bandit. Legend of Heroes has reasoning given for every choice you make and makes it fit in the world, you can either kill a bunch of racoons, or don't, and you're given good and bad reasons for what you pick. Katawa Shoujo has like three arcs where doing the "good" thing royally fucks up the girls, while doing the "bad" thing actually helps them.

Bottom line is, games have had "evil" optimal/good options in them forever and it's only really been the last few years that people have raised as much of a stink about them. You shouldn't always be a hero in a game as far as I'm concerned, about the only thing I'm willing to praise Spec Ops on, there should be more than just big gorramed hiros. Or even have characters that have less than upstanding moral character. Or even for them to take "wrong" actions for the "right" reasons and getting the "best" results from them.

Let's say they do. What's the problem? In the end, it's just fiction. Don't get so worked up over it.

except some of the people defending it are going all out to harass and destroy the individual who first drew attention to the issue...

maybe they shouldn't get so worked up over it?

Dude, it's the internet, you get people harassing and attempting to destroying you for not being trans-minority autistic otherkin anymore. It's nothing new, you put yourself out there, you're going to get hate. The difference is that most people ignore it as best they can, but a worrying trend has become to apparently seek it out and revel in it.

 

[Jake Martinez]

And it's definitly not date rape, wtf. How do people come up with that stuff?

It's because your character drugs her drink behind her back. I mean really that is nuts no matter what excuse you attach to it. You can't un-creep that.

No, this doesn't happen.

Soleil gives you permission to do this. She asks for you to cure her of her fainting using "any means necessary". You can debate if this was a wise request for her to make or not, but you can't claim that she didn't have any agency in the matter because that'd be just lying.

 

[Jake Martinez]

Why I can look at this in the way of "culture-specific trope that girls being attracted and flirting with other girls is something that many young girls do just for fun before they get on terms with their sexuality and move on to the world of serious relationships, therefore it is often taken humorously"? See? It's not that hard to stop TRYING to get offended and show some understanding for a different culture.

So if we ignore the part where moving "on to the world of serious relationships" means to move on to exclusively heterosexual relationships because anything else is immature or in need of fixing it doesn't seem as bad? Color me shocked that when you ignore what's actually wrong with something, nothing actually seems wrong.

If you read the post that I made earlier, you'd see that you're making up a complete strawman.

First of all, the "s-class" relationship is not a sexual one. It's usually chaste. It's not homosexual in the least and yes, normal "straight" people do engage in this in Japan culturally.

Hell, in Western culture it didn't use to be all that strange for same sex people to hold hands as they walked down the street or sleep in the same bed. However, now, people like you seem to want to insist that any sort of affection between two people of the same gender is instantly super duper gay.

Do you realize how this sounds? It's like that guy that sees two other guys hugging and then goes, "Ewww! That's so gay! What a couple of fags!"

The point I am trying to make is that your entire premise for being upset here is completely wrong. This "Trope" if you will doesn't imply homosexuality (not every girl that holds hands with another girl or thinks other girls are cute is a lesbian FFS. This should not be hard to understand). It also doesn't imply that when they grow out of this phase that they will graduate to "heterosexuality". The reason why is because they are not previously in a state of being gay. Do you understand that? The japanese do not consider this behavior to be homosexual, so the conclusion you are drawing cannot actually be true.

 

[Jake Martinez]

If you read the post that I made earlier, you'd see that you're making up a complete strawman.

And if you bothered to actually read my post, you'd actually understand what was being talked about. We're not talking about it being a problem that straight girls hold hands with other girls when they're younger but stop as they grow older, we're talking about the implication that such things are solely for young, immature girls before they grow up. Do you honestly think "when you grow up you have to stop being affectionate and flirty with other girls" is a healthy mindset to have for girls who are actually attracted to other girls?

You are still making up attitudes that don't actually exist. You are basically ignoring 100% of the subtext of the childhood relationship and saying it's the same as adult relationships. It's not. These are completely separate and distinct things and the Japanese culture treats them differently. They may think you're weird for being gay, but they won't think that you're immature for it. That's a complete strawman of an argument since it doesn't happen.

To state it very clearly in a hope that you will stop for a moment and actually listen to people:

They acknowledge a distinct difference between intent behind actions that you are ignoring. The reason why they view the childhood relationship as immature is because they believe the intent behind it is for children to work out relationship dynamics through "play" in a way that is safe (much like how children work out everything else in their lives). The fact that a couple of kids may hold hands, or kiss each other on the cheek, isn't actually important. It's the intent behind their relationship, not the outward expression of it. You are conflating these two things in your argument.

While you may look at two adult women holding hands and think to yourself, "Those two are gay and in a relationship" it's perfectly normal for a Japanese to see the same thing and think, "Those two are acting like kids." Neither opinion is inherently correct or wrong without additional context, or even offensive as it's based on someones interpretation of cultural norms. However, if the two women in question are Japanese and living in Japan (providing additional context), it's highly likely that you'd would be completely wrong since oddly enough adults in Japan, regardless of their orientation or relationship status do not usually hold hands in public. You know who does this? Girls attempting to appear young and "kawaii". Considering your fictitious Lesbian hand holding couple are assumed to be adults they would not likely hold hands in public, precisely because they wouldn't want people to think that they were being immature about their relationship. Do you understand this? Regardless of their sexual orientation it would be expected for them to hold to the same societal norms in public displays of affection as heterosexual couples do, since only children get a pass at public displays of affection in their society. It's not discriminatory or harmful at all. They simply have a different way of expressing affection that is appropriate for their cultural norms.

This is why people need to not get outraged over other people's cultural norms. You are interpreting things in a completely racist/culturally imperialistic way and projecting your own understanding of how your culture works and what peoples motives are on a culture that works sometimes in completely different ways.

Please take a moment to check your privilege and acknowledge all the things you don't know about other races and cultures.

 

[nomotog_v1legacy]

And it's definitly not date rape, wtf. How do people come up with that stuff?

It's because your character drugs her drink behind her back. I mean really that is nuts no matter what excuse you attach to it. You can't un-creep that.

No, this doesn't happen.

Soleil gives you permission to do this. She asks for you to cure her of her fainting using "any means necessary". You can debate if this was a wise request for her to make or not, but you can't claim that she didn't have any agency in the matter because that'd be just lying.

Ok that is fair. I don't think it un-creeps it because of the imagery involved and such, but that excuse dose address the core issue with secretly drugging someone. You get consent, but not informed consent and half is something. It never stops being dodgy, but it's better.

 

[Animyr]

What's the problem? In the end, it's just fiction. Don't get so worked up over it.

Are you saying that fiction can't say anything meaningful? Or only that Fire Emblem isn't saying anything meaningful?

The trope general use NEVER implies that ALL same-sex interest is "just a phase" or that ALL the girls who flirt with girls ALWAYS need to move on EXCLUSIVELY to guys or she's immature. It's a trope, not a norm. A Way Thing Sometime Happens, not The Way Thing Should Be.

Except there is a popular perception, commonly held among people who still oppose the social acceptance of homosexuality, that ALL "gay" people are indeed like that. They are actually straight underneath and their homosexual feelings are an impediment to be overcome, and thus we should help the "gay" person shed the psychological quirks and issues that caused them to act gay and unlock their true heterosexuality. And then bang them, appearantly.

It sounds like the game presents lesbianism in precisely this socially conservative context, or very close to it. Let's not forget that even outside of conservative circles, lesbianism in particular is popularly portrayed and perceived (and implicitly belittled) as something to be grown out of, ie lesbians are "experimenting" and just need to meet "the right man" to snap them out of it. Or at least persuade them to partake in threesomes.

Since many people take the trope seriously in real life, I don't think it's use here is entirely devoid of wider implication, as you insist it is. Even if the devs did not intend for such implications.

snip

I'm having difficulty understanding what you're trying to say here. You seem to think that you're setting the record straight, but all you do is reinforce the idea that the original, supposedly flawed perception of the game is indeed accurate. It looks to me like you have to bend over backwards in order to deny the criticisms.

Soleil's attraction towards women is a sign of immaturity? Gee, that's not condescending towards gay people at all.

Soleil isn't really gay? If swooning over the sight of attractive women is just a "girl crush," how would a genuinely homosexual young woman behave?

Soleil doesn't really find women attractive? Then why is she swooning over them? Is she swooning over the platonic connection they share?

Soleil is really attracted to men? Then why is it (according to all reports I've seen) that she only falls in love with the male hero because she sees him as an attractive woman for so long, and still feels no attraction to other men?

Also, the idea that lesbianism is a youthful phase young women go through before moving on to "real" "adult" relationships with men is very well represented in western culture (the "I experimented in college" cliche, for a start). Not sure where you became convinced that only the Japanese see it that way.

Additionally I notice that as eager as you were to explain the cultural context around how the Japanese view lesbianism as a phase to be outgrown, you never explained how Japanese culture differentiates between ephemeral "girl crushes" and genuine homosexual attraction, which seems like a pretty important distinction to make.

Of course, this wouldn't be a big deal if there was a robust and well-written array of lesbian and bisexual/curious characters in games (or in general). But that isn't the case. Fire Emblem offered to help fix that, but even if other gay characters in the game are well written, the fact remains that the game seems to pay lip service too old, outdated and (under certain circumstances) dangerous conceptions of homosexuality as well, which is entirely worthy of criticism.

And whatever which way, the fact remains that a game that touted its inclusion of same sex relationships made it so one of the most prominent gay characters (if we define "gay" as being attracted to the same sex) learns to be straight (if we define "straight" as being attracted to the opposite sex). Yeah, I'm not surprised the reception has been cold.

 

[Jake Martinez]

Animyr, I answered pretty much every question that you put forward in my previous post. I would suggest merely re-reading them again or asking specific questions about the points that I made rather than I just repeat myself.

Suffice it to say, your premise that Soleil is gay or even bisexual is a completely wrong. She's not. Really, really, really she's not. She even states quite clearly that the MC, is the only person that's ever made her excited "that way" (loose translation of doki doki, heart beating/heart racing).

Seriously, please go re-read my post(s). I quite clearly make the case that western critics are misreading the material because they lack the appropriate cultural context to understand the tropes and societal norms at play here. Through either their own ignorance, or malicious intent, people are quite literally making up stuff that does not exist in the source material, seemingly so that they can just be upset at it.

Edit: re-reading your post again for the 2nd time, it's quite clear that you are making the same mistake a lot of other posters are and conflating romantic attraction and feelings with sexual feelings (actual sexual orientation). I literally cannot explain this any better than I already have in my previous post, so if you continue to not understand the cultural subtext at play here, then it's doubtful you ever will so I might as well let it drop.

 

[Redryhno]

snip

Dude, your entire set of arguments is based on WESTERN standards. How many times do people have to say that before they start being listened to?

 

[Jake Martinez]

snip

Dude, your entire set of arguments is based on WESTERN standards. How many times do people have to say that before they start being listened to?

It's so frustrating... how do you explain to these people that in Japan Soliel's behavior isn't considered gay. It's like they just refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Redryhno]

snip

Dude, your entire set of arguments is based on WESTERN standards. How many times do people have to say that before they start being listened to?

It's so frustrating... how do you explain to these people that in Japan Soliel's behavior isn't considered gay. It's like they just refuse to acknowledge it.

I always assumed it was some sort of prank/best friend crap. My buddies in school did largely the same things, grabbing each others tits and hitting their butts with folders, though only when it was just good friends around. It was mostly played for shock value and to screw with each other. Didn't know it actually had a name over there.

 

[Jake Martinez]

snip

Dude, your entire set of arguments is based on WESTERN standards. How many times do people have to say that before they start being listened to?

It's so frustrating... how do you explain to these people that in Japan Soliel's behavior isn't considered gay. It's like they just refuse to acknowledge it.

I always assumed it was some sort of prank/best friend crap. My buddies in school did largely the same things, grabbing each others tits and hitting their butts with folders, though only when it was just good friends around. It was mostly played for shock value and to screw with each other. Didn't know it actually had a name over there.

It's actually more "pure" than that. They consider it perfectly normal for young people to have romantic feelings towards the same sex, but they make a clear distinction between this and actual sexual orientation. Basically, who you "love" isn't necessarily the same as who you want to have sex with.

It's not just Japanese culture either, you can find this in various cultures throughout the world. You may see a couple of gentlemen from the middle east greeting each other with kisses, or walking together down the street and holding hands and no one would automatically assume they are gay because this isn't seen as a sign of sexual interest.

It's just westerners who are kind of fucked up and see any sort of intimacy as prelude to sex.

 

[Redryhno]

It's actually more "pure" than that. They consider it perfectly normal for young people to have romantic feelings towards the same sex, but they make a clear distinction between this and actual sexual orientation. Basically, who you "love" isn't necessarily the same as who you want to have sex with.

It's not just Japanese culture either, you can find this in various cultures throughout the world. You may see a couple of gentlemen from the middle east greeting each other with kisses, or walking together down the street and holding hands and no one would automatically assume they are gay because this isn't seen as a sign of sexual interest.

It's just westerners who are kind of fucked up and see any sort of intimacy as prelude to sex.

You can thank religion for that I think, a large part of North American culture is largely because 15th century England was too full of hussies for their taste(also the Church of England thing, but that was just another part of it).

Also English having a plethora of adjectives, but a pretty limited number of specific words in comparison to alot of other languages, love is just one of those words we've got a thousand meanings for, but can easily be misconstrued as the standard definition because we've just like the one word.

 

[Jake Martinez]

It's actually more "pure" than that. They consider it perfectly normal for young people to have romantic feelings towards the same sex, but they make a clear distinction between this and actual sexual orientation. Basically, who you "love" isn't necessarily the same as who you want to have sex with.

It's not just Japanese culture either, you can find this in various cultures throughout the world. You may see a couple of gentlemen from the middle east greeting each other with kisses, or walking together down the street and holding hands and no one would automatically assume they are gay because this isn't seen as a sign of sexual interest.

It's just westerners who are kind of fucked up and see any sort of intimacy as prelude to sex.

You can thank religion for that I think, a large part of North American culture is largely because 15th century England was too full of hussies for their taste(also the Church of England thing, but that was just another part of it).

Also English having a plethora of adjectives, but a pretty limited number of specific words in comparison to alot of other languages, love is just one of those words we've got a thousand meanings for, but can easily be misconstrued as the standard definition because we've just like the one word.

This has actually got me thinking about when we started to lose this distinction in the popular context.

One thing that is worth considering is that this might be a case where the more Conservative the society, the more "Romantic" you can portray a relationship because it wouldn't even occur to someone that it would be sexual.

 

[Erttheking]

LOL. People play games where they NUKE THE ENTIRE CIVILIZATIONS, where they play as THE DEVIL, where they murder or minbend whole cities, where they kill lots of innocent people on the streets, rob, steal, commit war crimes, and ALL OF IT is absolutely OK.

But love potion to sneak under someone's skirt? OH NO THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR US!!!1111

So do those games where you nuke entire civilizations or murder entire cities then present you as the good hero who just solved those civilizations and cities' problems with their nukes and murders? Because that's really the only way the situations would be comparable.

Let's say they do. What's the problem? In the end, it's just fiction. Don't get so worked up over it.

The way people get worked up over people getting worked up over fiction?

You know it's all fine and dandy to say "It's just a story" but half of the reason people who criticize tropes in story seem to get angry is the way that their arguments and concerns are completely dismissed. Often in a rather condescending manner. I know it's certainly why I get angry.

 

[Erttheking]

Have you forgotten that this takes place in a medieval fantasy? You may as well act shocked that gender roles exist in the FE universe.

You know that argument might hold some weight if 90% of all works that presented a medieval inspired world didn't give a damn about presenting medieval culture accurately. Fire Emblem isn't a medieval fantasy, it's a medieval INSPIRED fantasy. If it was really medieval you'd lose half of men who took any serious injury when their wounds got infected. You wouldn't be able to properly go to war until you road out and raised all your levies, and you'd have to worry about keeping the nobles they answer to satisfied or they'd take their men and march home. If it was really medieval half of your army wouldn't be women, they'd be all men. And there wouldn't be Pegasuses, magic, dudes walking around in comically oversized armor and ridiculously stylized armor and Chrom wouldn't leave his arm unarmed because that pretty much says "Cut here".

So frankly, as far as I'm concerned, unless a story goes down the path of a Song of Ice and Fire path where they go to great pains to show what life was back in the middle ages, every world creates its own rules and can't use "historical accuracy" as an excuse. Or at the very least have it be an established part of the world for world building, something Fire Emblem isn't exactly great at. I love the series but its worlds tend to be a little on the shallow side, relying on characters to carry it. And I don't really see how a world that romanticizes knights from assholes who got their income from the villages they sacked to heroic protectors is automatically assumed to keep medieval gender roles. Let's be honest, games very rarely intentionally do it and commonly subvert these roles.

For example, Sunless Sea is a game set in a Victorian England inspired world. In that setting women wouldn't be allowed to be fighters or captains of ships, but since it isn't actual Victorian England, they can be. In fantasy the only limit is the author's imagination.

 

[Redryhno]

Have you forgotten that this takes place in a medieval fantasy? You may as well act shocked that gender roles exist in the FE universe.

You know that argument might hold some weight if 90% of all works that presented a medieval inspired world didn't give a damn about presenting medieval culture accurately. Fire Emblem isn't a medieval fantasy, it's a medieval INSPIRED fantasy. If it was really medieval you'd lose half of men who took any serious injury when their wounds got infected. You wouldn't be able to properly go to war until you road out and raised all your levies, and you'd have to worry about keeping the nobles they answer to satisfied or they'd take their men and march home. If it was really medieval half of your army wouldn't be women, they'd be all men. And there wouldn't be Pegasuses, magic, dudes walking around in comically oversized armor and ridiculously stylized armor and Chrom wouldn't leave his arm unarmed because that pretty much says "Cut here".

So frankly, as far as I'm concerned, unless a story goes down the path of a Song of Ice and Fire path where they go to great pains to show what life was back in the middle ages, every world creates its own rules and can't use "historical accuracy" as an excuse. Or at the very least have it be an established part of the world for world building, something Fire Emblem isn't exactly great at. I love the series but its worlds tend to be a little on the shallow side, relying on characters to carry it.

For example, Sunless Sea is a game set in a Victorian England inspired world. In that setting women wouldn't be allowed to be fighters or captains of ships, but since it isn't actual Victorian England, they can be. In fantasy the only limit is the author's imagination.

Actually, the only limit is what the CREATOR(S) WANTS. You can imagine whatever you want, but if it doesn't fit what they want, it doesn't really matter does it?

Also, c'mon, GoT is some of the closest to true medieval fiction we've got, but it's still very much fantasy, women hold alot of offices in that world that they wouldn't in ours, the common man is routinely made the right-hand of nobility(sometimes literally), and the nobles themselves are a mish-mash of caricatures and hold very little power that is shown, but the houses live on somehow despite how much everyone despises some of them.

And, I'd have to disagree with you on Fire Emblem not being good on world building, considering each game takes place in an alternate version of history essentially and it's very dependent on characters, it does a pretty good job each time.

 

[Silvanus]

Seriously, please go re-read my post(s). I quite clearly make the case that western critics are misreading the material because they lack the appropriate cultural context to understand the tropes and societal norms at play here. Through either their own ignorance, or malicious intent, people are quite literally making up stuff that does not exist in the source material, seemingly so that they can just be upset at it.

I don't understand why cultural context should end this conversation. It can explain the developers' decisions, sure, but ideas are not automatically good by benefit of being traditional or culturally common.

Criticism of trends in media from other countries is perfectly fine, regardless of where the trends come from.

 

[Hades]

Not that I don't think Nintento and Intelligents systems are to blame for writing such a support in the first place but this whole thing just irks me so much.

I think a franchise of fire Emblems (admittingly ignored) prestige deserves much better then to hit the pages which headlines of it being homophobic or Waifu orientated.

 

[Kaimax]

Man, this thing sure blew up for something of a non-issue. Honestly stop listening to bozos using google translate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iVFPheRegw

And some of these people are blowing up the facts about "magic powder" thing into drug level territory. The support conversation literally said that the magic powder was for experimentation and its effect of males looking like females and vice versa didn't last long, and Soleil after knowing the fact just goes with the flow and tried to have fun with it.