Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
The combat in Fallout 3 is absolutely excellent. And it?s certainly better than NV. ?Dated? is a meaningless word that it feels like it could be just as much praise as criticism. If you?re up for it, I need more details.
I'm not sure how you can say Fallout 3 had combat that was so much better than New Vegas. It's almost identical, except New Vegas has iron sights and more guns. Without mods I can't stand the combat in either game.
More people to shoot, better reasons to shoot them, better environments to shoot them in (I didn?t think much of the ?dungeons? in NV.) Also, NV ruined the VATS system. In NV I kept dying whilst in this state so I never used it in NV. This is a real shame because in F3 it never got old.
Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
While we?re at it there?s a bunch more stuff we could wish for. But I get 80-odd hours out of each F3 play-through. That?s good enough for me. But this is mostly me rueing the invisible walls of NV which take away a lot of freedom.
There's a mod to remove those. And add dozens of bounty quests. And.. well, mods can fix most of the problems with New Vegas. Maybe that's why I like New Vegas to much more - I can just mod away all of the problems.
No no no. I?m not giving you that. There?s a mod for everything so pretty much all criticism of either game can be undone this way. I?ve spent about a year making a F3 mod myself ? I put in factions, hardcore mod, twelve new quests (oddly enough, bounty,) and made the game much, much more difficult. The problems I have with NV are a little harder to mod around, but I?m certainly not holding it against NV. If anything, NV just has less simple things that need work in the first place.
Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
Here?s an idea; how about if the player gets the fuck them up? I like my shooting games to have some shooting. This is part of what I meant when I say I feel F3 had better combat.
You do get to, you're missing my point entirely here. The raiders exist in New Vegas, they're just actual factions and not generic 'raiders'. Powder Gangers and Fiends are raiders, and they have their own territory. Humans are territorial creatures, so it makes sense that raiders would have their own turf and be raiding other areas to steal stuff from more civilized people.
You don?t get to kill as much though. Unless you count a thousand boring critters. And yeah, I know that doesn?t reflect well on me. Also, if you get to include Powder Gangers as ?raiders? (not ?Raiders?, ?raiders?) then I get to include Talon Company as raiders. But these groups aren?t less valid than the NV factions.
Pandabearparade said:
I'm being Captain Nitpick here, but in Fallout 3 there were a -lot- more raiders than civilized people. The raiders don't have much to raid.
You?re right. But I?m prepared to suspend my disbelief over this if I get to do more killing. So they don?t live up to their name. No biggie.
Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
No. I?m not willing to do ?all the writing.? I may as well not play a game at all. I just don?t feel it?s necessary to spell out every little thing for people. NV had way too much dialogue and F3 was already pushing it.
This is Fallout- dialogue is important. That's like saying Civilization has you managing too many cities. That's kind of an inextricable part of the experience.
The point is, we don?t need *more* dialogue explaining every tiny thing. Why not just embrace the nature of interactive storytelling and use the imagination? I?m not speaking out against dialogue, I?m speaking out against adding superfluous exposition.
Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
Also, the ending of a three part trilogy and the economy of one of about a dozen NPC villages is very different.
A completely fair counterpoint.
*shifty eyes*
Is he being sarcastic?
He cut off the main point of my paragraph...
*shifty eyes*
Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
I don?t need every tiny thing explained to me like I?m some sort of idiot with too much time to waste shifting through way too many conversation trees. I can make assumptions and judgements and infer the small missing pieces.
If you don't like the conversations I don't know why you like Fallout. Again, dialogue is a key part of the experience. Without the dialogue Fallout is just a poorly balanced shooter without multiplayer.
Aw no I love the conversations. But it does go a bit overboard in some places. It?s not dialogue I have a problem with, it?s just the necessity of adding too much to explain things that don?t need too much explaining.
I agree with the poor balancing. This is why I gat NV the mechanics reward for that aspect hands-down. Some F3 SPECIAL stats and skills were rubbish or too good. And does the Chinese Pistol shoot peas? You better believe this was one of my first ports of call when I got the G.E.C.K. Urrk. Actually I?d better not start. But none of it was ever a deal breaker.
Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
And for every NPC that says that, there?s then a barrage of people asking:
?How do they get the materials and training to clean those weapons??
Self evident. They live in the Capital Wasteland, there is no shortage of scrap.
?How can they sustain their population??
They found a crate full of Viagra. A big one.
?How do they deal with inflation??
The gold standard. Or the water standard, since the Brotherhood destroyed the gold reserves.
And this would need to be explained for every aspect of every settlement.
Again, moderation. It's possible to go overboard and explain too much. It's also possible to explain nothing and make no sense.
Yeah, yeah. Alright smart-arse. I know flippancy when I see it. I?m just saying these things aren?t too much of a strain on suspension/disblief. As for ?they live in the Capital Wasteland, there is no shortage of scrap? why not just apply that to most ?plot holes? and let sleeping dogs lie?
Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
Bare-bones justifications are very easy to reach. Can?t you just assume certain things? Do you really need the Tenpenny economy explained to you rather than just assuming ?they?re rich, they get by.?
The thing is, you aren't "rich" if you don't have anyone to buy from. Tenpenny Tower is isolated and reclusive and inclined to bomb their nearest trading partner for, you know, reasons.
Lol. I have a soft-spot for stupid evil. I like being stupid evil! The justifications were just good enough given how funny the whole thing was. NV did take the game in a more serious and mature direction with references to prostitution and rape and whatnot. Still very silly, but NV carried itself better. The camp silliness of Fallout 3 is great, but not as good as NV delivery.
But who?s saying Tenpenny Tower aren?t buying stuff? They have stuff. They must get it somehow. Maybe they have special traders who bring them stuff? We never see them because that?s just a bit too much. Not really necessary. Hell they?ve used mercs before.
Am I charging you with over-thinking things? Na. I always wondered why everyone doesn?t just starve to death. Or at least complain about it once in a while! NV had crop fields and this spoke volumes. It robbed a little from the desolation vibe, but it was a good price to pay. It would?ve worked in F3 ? irradiated water isn?t totally useless after all.
Pandabearparade said:
I'll retract the statement on Canterbury. They're a trade hub, they get a pass. The rest? Yeah, they make no sense. Little Lamplight can be twisted into making sense if you assert some rather unsavory things involving reproduction and the medical skills of ten year olds.
I can see what the writers/programmers were going for. A sort of grotesque never-never land. It doesn?t *really* work if you don?t have eternal youth but I don?t mind too much. Maybe there should?ve been a cupboard somewhere full of the miscarried foetuses of adolescents due to malnutrition and infection, but that would?ve shattered the F3 tone.
Pandabearparade said:
darkfox85 said:
I?m sure I read some where you admitted you were a bit too nitpicky and all this is just shooting the breeze.
To an extent. Despite all of my many, many complaints Fallout 3 still easily makes my top ten games of all time. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.
It?s easy to loose sight that just because the person you?re arguing with doesn?t agree with your position, doesn?t mean they are the exact opposite of your position. I?ll level. On my last check NV came in at #7. One of the greatest games ever made. But thanks to better exploring and combat, I gotta give that #1 to F3. And I?ve still got a butt-load to complain about myself.
But the real issue, rumour or not, is if we could take the elements of two very similar yet very different games, we?d really have something incredible. Fallout 4 may be a long time coming or still just a twinkle in Todd Howard?s eye, but I?m sure I?m not the only one dreaming big.
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