Objectification? Sexualization? What do the ladies think?

[AwKwardly]

This is hardly new ground for anyone here, so well trodden that we're nearly to the point of laying asphalt and calling it a highway. My questions here aren't about whether men or women get it worst, state of the industry etc. I'm hoping to hear about:

Specific aspects that people, women in particular, find most abrasive? Character, design, writing, marketing, etc?

How do these elements effect engagement and involvement?

What would be some of the aspects that could empower, humanize, engagement?

And lastly, if you wanted some titillation, what could be added, or subtracted, to character, story, design, to add a little 'special' appeal?

If you're interested to add more from your personal perspective, please do!

 

[JellySlimerMan]

Here is a lady that can teach you some about Objectification:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-N9daqANcw

 

[AwKwardly]

Thanks for the link JellySlimerMan, I'm aware of GWW and her video's. Her rational approach to the subject is refreshing and interesting, though I feel her commentaries apply more to extreme social positions, primarily fringe feminism and MRM. My interest is in the realms of games and how it can apply to the aforementioned elements of characters, design aesthetic or writing, from the female perspective.

 

[JellySlimerMan]

though I feel her commentaries apply more to extreme social positions, primarily fringe feminism and MRM.

Don't you mean the mainstream social positions? you know, the ones from the NAFALT (Not All Feminists Are Like That) video?

Here is one article of a woman on The Mary Sue:
http://www.themarysue.com/what-women-want-in-female-video-game-protagonists/
http://www.themarysue.com/the-hey-sweetheart-scenario-deconstructing-how-role-playing-games-talk-to-women/

Shamus young (a guy) response to it:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=17517

Another woman on sexism on games: http://www.videogameologists.com/2012/01/23/small-rant-about-feminist-who-frequent-games/

And 2 more on Bayonetta being an empowering feminist figure: http://7nights.tumblr.com/post/49375174755/feminism-in-video-games
http://gomakemeasandwich.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/bayonetta-and-the-male-gaze/

And my 2 cents of the day: Do NOT do what Metroid Other M and you will be fine.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13373815860B43920100&i_id=13384263550I62094100&p=17

Trivia for Bayonetta: Surprisingly, it passes The Bechdel Test. None of the on-screen female characters talk about romance or even male characters (beyond adressing the Lumen Sages as a group): Jeanne and Bayonetta interact as any rivals/enemies interact, while Bayonetta and Cereza is a maternal relationship.

May as well look into those articles, because it seems that everyone is busy right now to post here.

 

[AwKwardly]

Thanks again for the links! That made for some interesting reading, and addressed most of my curiosities.

 

[likalaruku]

I think male characters aren't nearly attractive enough & wear far too much clothing. Men will never stop objectifying women, so let's make the playing field even.

 

[Ikasury]

sure, why not, i seem to come by this a lot looking around here... and am a female gamer...

"Specific aspects that people, women in particular, find most abrasive? Character, design, writing, marketing, etc?"

i'm one of those people that likes playing games for story, suppose one of the things i find most annoying about this whole objectification/sexualiztion thing is that its all tits and ass... most games since they started going for 'higher graphics' make shallower game/plots as a whole, so the characters suffer for it, just period, since apparently because they're 'pretty' depth doesn't matter so much. But for the O/S thing, lets see, what's mostly covered is 'T and A' and female characters are primarily there to move plot, okay everyone covers that... Personally i LIKE playing as a female character, its not fair really when i'm forced to either play some overly burly 'dude' or some skimpy she-man that honestly is just insulting my gender by existing... Marketing is all about 'Sexy woman!' on the cover if its obvious titillation, and 'dude being awesome' if its some action-thingy... like seriously, the only 'main stream' female MCs anyone can think about are Laura Croft or what... Lighting? pfft... they're not 'bad' characters i guess but *shrugs* eh... I miss Aya Brea and Rose... i just find it annoying most female leads are this cookie-cutter T&A model and about as much personality as cardboard, and usually they're the ONLY female in the entire cast... its just 'eh'... and makes me not want to bother...

"How do these elements effect engagement and involvement?"

i'm tired of playing 'dudes', i liked Mass Effect cause it gave me the option to be a full-blown woman kicking-ass and taking names, with a voice, personality and everything, and while still primarily 'appealing' wasn't bending over showing cleavage all the time... like Miranda... but for a better example of 'engagement', lets take Dragon's Dogma, where you can make you're character be whatever you want, i've played this game A LOT, and beat it several times, and i can say without a doubt there is just something that bothers me when playing as 'guy', i can't explain it, its like this annoying itch in the back of my brain and i don't have the full D&D-esque feel of 'being' my character... because i'm not a 'dude'...

"What would be some of the aspects that could empower, humanize, engagement?"

why not just make kick-ass females, not male-proxies, actual women? why is that so freakin' hard and scary? female gamers have to play 'dudes' all the time, its nice to play a game about a chick being the 'chosen one' instead of 'oh look, another guy gains super powers and saves the world... woo... oh and look, another make out scene where he's with a chick... joy -.-' Aya Brea is one of my favorite characters of all time, and it actually has very little to do with the fact she's a woman saving the world... if i wanted to go 'woman saving the world' i'd go with F!/Shepard, but what i like about Aya is she's well, NOT doing it to 'save' the world, but because she's a reluctant character that knows she's the ONLY ONE that can save the world, i personally like the 'resigned hero', it gives the character a bit more depth and humanism, and that's something that's not 'limited' to gender-roles... i'd say just make more 'real' female characters, not have them all have DC-esque figures, and more balanced 'parties' with male/female ratios and options... Persona 4 is a great example, and that's not just because of Naoto Shirogane, but they have a split party, no one's really designed purely on 'fanservice' and we have two characters that fit easily and comfortably in the 'other' gender category...

"And lastly, if you wanted some titillation, what could be added, or subtracted, to character, story, design, to add a little 'special' appeal?"

less 'dudes' who are nothing but angst-buckets that whine about 'losing their love' and then go and sleep with every woman/dude on the planet... why's it okay for male heroes to be effectively man-whores but a female hero can't get any? pfft... give me a female protagonist and let me pick all the dudes i want, how about that? also, stop making me so disturbingly ripped, i like nice shoulders sure, but seriously steroids should be illegal, or whatever video game dudes are on... my assumption why games are primarily marketed to guys and 'offensive' to girls is cause its easy to market to guys, slap boobs somewhere and it'll sell, while with women its a bit more complicated then that... some women like ripped dudes, some like wimpy fem-boys, me personally like neither, and while i'm partial to 'scruffy' not to the extents that some games think is 'cool' ;; lets see, main stream games i can think of male characters i liked... hrm... i liked Sten from Dragon Age: Origins, and Wrex from Mass Effect, neither were date-able, i was disappointed... suppose for a 'normal human' example would be... hmm... ugh... yea i can't really think of any main stream game 'dudes', protagonists or otherwise i really like-liked... *shrugs* i'm not playing games for titillation honestly, i'm playing them to blow stuff up and laugh about it or a really kick-ass plot/story...

here's a question of my own, anyone think that these male-oriented mentalities put into games may be effecting female-gamers perspectives on what's 'hot' and what's 'not'? since we have to play in the mindset of 'dudes' all the time, i'm honestly starting to think this is effecting my normal capacity to even be 'attracted' to men, quite honestly i recognize 'tits' more then i do 'pecks' as something that should be 'hot' because of the subliminal everything that's geared towards 'men', but me as a woman just has to 'deal with it'? lame... i hope they start making more female oriented games, then you dudes can feel all weird about being 'gay' and i can tell you to 'get over it' honestly...

 

[JellySlimerMan]

I think male characters aren't nearly attractive enough & wear far too much clothing. Men will never stop objectifying women, so let's make the playing field even.

Just for the sake of disclosure, "objectifying" for you means: "seeing someone as an object to be used and discarted", right?

 

[keniakittykat]

I think there is a problem. for example, whenever I want to play one of these online fantasy games, unless it was made for a younger audience (like Learn to fly) The female option is 9/10 times a boobstick in metal thong.

And in other games it's not much better. BUT it can be done right. Like, Ivy Valentine. (Yes, a woman defending Ivy from soul calibur, so shocking, hold on to you butts.) She is an extremely sexualized character and Ivy is oftentimes seen as everything wrong with videogames and female design. But I really like her as a character. I played SC2 for the first time when I was 13, and me and my sister just fell in love with how confident and in-charge she was. It wasn't just about the t&a, I loved her character and her story and was the first character I got all costumes and weapons for.

She was (as far as videogame role models go) a perfect one for me. Because I wasn't exactly pretty at that age. And playing through this beautiful, awesome, strong woman made me feel empowered. I know this wasn't the intent when designing her, but that's what I really felt.

But we don't need more than one of those, and now that I'm older, I would love to see more less-conventional ladies. We're going in the right direction, change doesn't come overnight. But if I'm truly honest, I just want female characters to be more like real people, until they get that right we can't really discus design.

 

[DioWallachia]

snip

I think this video from GWW named "Benevolent Sexism" is the one that explains why males are considered better for being with lots of females than females to males.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VupEC0cAWo

As for the tons of androgynous badly written idiots....you do realize that both male gamers and developers DON'T have a choice about that anymore, right? And when we do, its mostly Mary Sue lvls of bad writting.
http://themalesofgames.blogspot.com.ar/2012/09/the-objectification-double-standard_23.html

We can't even get females to be protagonists in games because the publishers wont let us:
http://www.shacknews.com/article/78281/remember-me-rejected-by-publishers-due-to-female-protagonist

Then again there is no way to stop it once it gets going. Its a result of something getting popular and making money, and THEN other publishers FORCING those ideas in the hope of leeching the success of that thing being popular, to the point that copying everything about it without taking any risks in changing anything is the result.

And lo and behold:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3281-The-Numbers

Now, as for male gamers not liking gay characters that seems kite untrue. You may try to pull the controversy of gamers not liking Shepard being gay on Mass Effect 3, but that controversy wasn't because of Shepard being gay but because it contradicts the lore and what Bioware already declared in previous interviews. Then again, that is just one among MANY other things that the series forgot to keep track on with its continuity and promises, that eventually lead to...the ending debacle.

If people had a problem with protagonists being gay, they would have bitched when The Avatar from Ultima VII The Serpent Isle could make sex with a male prostitute, back in 1993.

Personally, i dont understand the need of having a gender in the first place, for how irrelevant its to the story and the gameplay. I guess i am the kind of gamer that identifies more with Harbinger from Mass Effect 2, where i see every character as just a puppet for my will, and their qualities are carefully considered under the following basis: How much entertainment can i get out of this shell?

Why do you care if the shell happens to be a woman? i didn't know that people, men and women, are shallow enough to even be disgusted in being in another body, specially when most games just focus on your survival capabilities and not your gender ("Might/Skill Makes Right" is the trope that most games embrace). And since gameplay they are identical, i dont see a mechanical reason to hate a weaker gender over the one that makes the game easier.

I have yet to find a person capable of explaining why X character is a "good male/female character", instead of saying "good character"

See, while there are females in games, the writing doesn't do anything meaningful with it and the characters do not even mention what it means to be female to them, ditto for male protagonists.

"Hey Samus! so you are a female bounty hunter, huh? is the pay better for females? is it more harder? is motherhood a problem during the battlefield when exterminating whole species? no? oh ok"

This is not me being nitpicky or dismissing arguments. Definitions of what its means to be a human being have been challenged since forever, and gender is no exception. I always like to quote this trivia from Diogenes of Sinope in Wikipedia:

"When Plato gave Socrates' definition of man as "featherless bipeds" and was much praised for the definition, Diogenes plucked a chicken and brought it into Plato's Academy, saying, "Behold! I've brought you a man.""

So you see, i am not trying to remove agency or validation to females or males characters, its just that i find no reason to classify people by their bodies in fiction, when not even the characters themselves make a point about it.

That is why i find weird when people say that Chell from Portal is a good "female" protagonists by Real Life® women and feminists, when in my eyes it may be a good protagonist.

Hell, in RL® people can change sex if they desire, so what are the chances for game characters to be just transexuals (Poison of Final Fight) or robots/puppets (Dinamite Headdy)? Is this mentality of mine that makes me unable to grasp why feminists, or people in general, complain about the lack of female protagonist in games, when there is no such thing as gender in games other than cosmetic value.

Again, why apply old definitions around how your avatar/body looks when it is inconsequential to survival AND character in games?

But if you feel so inclined to have a game with multiple genders, here is a Sega Genesis version of an arcade game named "The Snow Brothers". A classic "Elimination Platformer" where you play as 2 snowmen trying to rescue the 2 Princesses of Snow, and when they finally do it...they end up being captured themselves. Meaning that the Princesses have to rescue THEM now (the gameplay remains unchanged except for the sprites used, obviously)

Watch at 24:41 for the "plot twist"

 

[DioWallachia]

(Yes, a woman defending Ivy from soul calibur, so shocking, hold on to you butts.)

You wouldn't be the first. As you can see in some post here, women also defend Bayonetta, a character that is waaaaaaaay more sexualised than the other characters in gaming.

Too bad that no one mentions my 2 favorite "shells" to play as:

Spoiler: Marina from Mischief Makers

Spoiler: Iji Kataiser from IJI

 

[Calibanbutcher]

This is hardly new ground for anyone here, so well trodden that we're nearly to the point of laying asphalt and calling it a highway. My questions here aren't about whether men or women get it worst, state of the industry etc. I'm hoping to hear about:

Specific aspects that people, women in particular, find most abrasive? Character, design, writing, marketing, etc?

How do these elements effect engagement and involvement?

What would be some of the aspects that could empower, humanize, engagement?

And lastly, if you wanted some titillation, what could be added, or subtracted, to character, story, design, to add a little 'special' appeal?

If you're interested to add more from your personal perspective, please do!

You are aware of course, that you opening another thread dedicated to the violent beating of the pulp left over from what once was a dead horse is especially strange, given that we currently have another thread on almost the exact same topic going?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.407898-Jimquisition-Objectification-And-Men


And you could give this a listen:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.405958-The-Sexism-CommuniCast-is-here-With-banana-hammocks
I do believe that some of your questions are touched upon by the participants.

 

[nexus]

Every male protagonist since the dawn of video games has been a throwaway soldier, that must discard his own value for life over everything else, often to save someone else or to fulfill other people's goals. Often times, he doesn't even get the girl in the end, he just gets shot a lot, putting himself in grave danger merely upon request of others. Helping random strangers do whatever they ask, fulfilling any task they desire .. because heroic stoicism.

Stoic, fearless, emotionless creature.

It paints a rather grim picture considering what men have to go through with their lives, often with no support. I consider it a sort of "objectification" in the literal sense that men are supposed to give their lives freely, and be discarded when they are no longer useful. Wake up, work, sleep, die.

 

[JazzJack2]

I think male characters aren't nearly attractive enough & wear far too much clothing. Men will never stop objectifying women, so let's make the playing field even.

I think MovieBob had something to say about this. Something to the effective of: "We objectify women because it is a male fantasy, a desired archetype for males, created by males. 'Objectifying' males represents the same issue. Creating hunky, half naked, Conan-the-Barbarian-like studs still caters to a desired archetype of men, expressing any venue of a male fantasy." In otherwords, you can't objectify men in such away.

To claim that sexy female characters pander to men but sexy male characters don't pander to women is nothing but double standards.

 

[sanquin]

Most female characters are pandering to men/boys. But most male characters as well. Male characters are muscular, stoic, fearless, you name it because most real life men/boys are not. It gives a chance for the males to 'feel' heroic for a bit.

The problem is that men/boys feel the need to be heroic/muscular/whatever in the first place. It's a standard women have put on us. Or rather, it's a standard from ancient times that women have kept us to to this day. So men are not objectified in games, they are only made after the image men want. The objectification of men happens in real life.

By the way, as a woman I have no problem with most 'objectified' women in games. I actually like playing as a sexy, curvy, scantily clad woman. Maybe it's because I go both ways though, and those women are eye candy for me too. >.>;;

 

[Lilani]

Specific aspects that people, women in particular, find most abrasive? Character, design, writing, marketing, etc?

Female, here. I think the thing that's been burning me up the most recently is the fact that it seems to be "common knowledge" within every form of media (games, movies, TV) that men CANNOT identify with any other character but a man. That they will somehow lose engagement because they can't handle watching a female doing awesome stuff. And this can be applied to race as well--even though our population is heading toward making caucasian a minority, Hollywood and TV and games like to pretend that minorities make up like 5% of the population, and when they do show up they're there to be "The black guy" or "The asian guy" or "The Indian guy."

For fuck's sake, this is the 21st century. If having a female instead of a male or a black character instead of a white character is such a big deal to their target demographics, then that target demographic is filled with horrible human beings who don't deserve to be catered to in any way, shape, or form. You can't tell me that many people in the world are racist, sexist, assholes. I've met a number of people, and while the results are certainly mixed, I wouldn't say the majority are like that. This has nothing to do with actual current studies on the matter, and everything to do with old ideals held onto by the media for the last 60 years because they'd rather be sexist and racist than try something that's new to them. And I would like to emphasize "to them" in that sentence, because apart from neo-nazis and hillbillies the idea that the entire world isn't white and male is pretty accepted by everyone else.

How do these elements effect engagement and involvement?

Admittedly, it doesn't usually actively affect my engagement. It depends on other aspects, as well. I've never been bothered by the fact that all the characters in TF2 are male because they are so entertaining and developed. They already have such great personalities and relationships with each other. I feel like adding in a female would have just made it feel like they were trying to fill a quota (which is another thing that burns me up).

What would be some of the aspects that could empower, humanize, engagement?

I feel like the female power fantasy isn't so different from the male power fantasy. I like to feel that I can conquer whatever comes my way, and that as long as I try hard enough there is nothing outside of my reach. Looking fit is important, it would be rather odd and comical for a morbidly obese character to be running and jumping around like Booker Dewitt in Bioshock Infinite. But they also don't need to be a size zero. For example:

Spoiler

[/quote]

These women may not be as thin as Victoria's Secret models, but they certainly look as though they could do just fine if they were dropped in a forest to fend for themselves.

And of course the armor needs to be reasonable, which I think can be easily exemplified by this [http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/] Tumblr. There you'll find a ton of artwork depicting female fantasy characters in reasonable armor. Armor that is not only aesthetically pleasing, but also is relatively realistic and would get the job done. It's designed to look good, but also to be practical.

And to me, that practicality adds a sense of character. It tells you a lot about who they are. For example:

Spoiler

You can tell these women have stories to tell just from what they're wearing and how they're posed. Also note their poses are meant to say something about their character, not to look like they're trying to titillate the viewer or show off their womanly features.

And lastly, if you wanted some titillation, what could be added, or subtracted, to character, story, design, to add a little 'special' appeal?

I think it depends entirely upon what's happening and who the character is. Perhaps they are a compulsive flirter. Or perhaps they just use their womanly wiles to lure those around her into a false sense of security. Or perhaps she's waiting for someone special and doesn't show much affection apart from basic friendliness. Or perhaps they do have someone special who they are separated from for one reason or another. Or perhaps they don't want to be tied down to anybody.

I think love and sexuality are integral parts of a person's character, but certainly not the only parts, and how these come out in the person's behavior varies wildly from person to person. If their love and sexuality are being addressed because it's a part of their character and because it contextually makes sense, I say why not. As strong of a character Eowin is in the Lord of the Rings, I don't mind at all that she paired off with Faramir. She's strong, but being in love doesn't make her less so.

However, if a character's sexuality is being brought forth for no apparent reason apart from titillating the viewer, that bothers me. Like Samara in Mass Effect. Yes, I understand with her powers she doesn't really need armor and yes I know she has children so she isn't exactly celibate, but she doesn't use her looks to disarm people as a justicar. She isn't a compulsive flirter, in fact attracting any sort of attention to herself whether it be romantic or otherwise is sort of a detriment to her job. And she makes it perfectly clear that her job and her oath come first. We know the Asari don't always dress like that, so why they went there with what is otherwise a very interesting character makes no sense to me. I feel like it not only dishonors her character, but also makes her generic in some ways.

And thinking about Samara's character, "generic" is not a term I would use. So often you get female characters who are driven by their emotions. Whether they're full of fire and passion, or timid and feminine their emotions more often than not play a huge role in the actions they take. But Samara is the polar opposite of that--no matter what feelings she has for you or anyone else[footnote]Even her CHILDREN, which is another soft spot female characters so often have.[/footnote], if her oath commands her to eliminate someone she will do it, and she will not hesitate. When I think of a woman like that, I don't think of someone in stripper heels and a catsuit showing five miles of cleavage.

 

[Legion]

I think male characters aren't nearly attractive enough & wear far too much clothing. Men will never stop objectifying women, so let's make the playing field even.

I think MovieBob had something to say about this. Something to the effective of: "We objectify women because it is a male fantasy, a desired archetype for males, created by males. 'Objectifying' males represents the same issue. Creating hunky, half naked, Conan-the-Barbarian-like studs still caters to a desired archetype of men, expressing any venue of a male fantasy." In otherwords, you can't objectify men in such away.

To claim that sexy female characters pander to men but sexy male characters don't pander to women is nothing but double standards.

Not exactly.

The idea is that sexy female characters are designed to turn men on, whereas muscular/hunky male characters are supposed to be representing the male player. As far as the fantasy goes the man is pretending to be the hunky man, while lusting after the sexy woman.

The logic is that both character designs are meant to cater towards men, but for differing reasons.

By the way, as a woman I have no problem with most 'objectified' women in games. I actually like playing as a sexy, curvy, scantily clad woman.

The thing is, neither do a significant amount of other women. The sheer amount of cosplay of "sexy" female characters by women shows that clearly a lot of women are perfectly happy with them as well. The most common argument against "sexy" female characters is that they are designed by men, for men. But the fact that so many women enjoy dressing up as them, as well as in the industry providing the voice acting for them shows that it's not a universal issue by any means.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

"How do these elements effect engagement and involvement?"

i'm tired of playing 'dudes', i liked Mass Effect cause it gave me the option to be a full-blown woman kicking-ass and taking names, with a voice, personality and everything, and while still primarily 'appealing' wasn't bending over showing cleavage all the time... like Miranda... but for a better example of 'engagement', lets take Dragon's Dogma, where you can make you're character be whatever you want, i've played this game A LOT, and beat it several times, and i can say without a doubt there is just something that bothers me when playing as 'guy', i can't explain it, its like this annoying itch in the back of my brain and i don't have the full D&D-esque feel of 'being' my character... because i'm not a 'dude'...

I'd also like to point you toward Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, if it please you. You can make your character female and kick ass without showing off ass and cleavage all the time. It's also a really, really fun game to play(of course, you can ignore me if you've already played this game).

On-Topic: Disclaimer: I'm a dude, not a lady.

I think what really grinds women's gears the most is when the character's there purely for sex appeal. Accentuated features, only acts like a tease and/or love interest. More of a sexual trophy, than anything else.

By the way, as a woman I have no problem with most 'objectified' women in games. I actually like playing as a sexy, curvy, scantily clad woman.

The thing is, neither do a significant amount of other women. The sheer amount of cosplay of "sexy" female characters by women shows that clearly a lot of women are perfectly happy with them as well. The most common argument against "sexy" female characters is that they are designed by men, for men. But the fact that so many women enjoy dressing up as them, as well as in the industry providing the voice acting for them shows that it's not a universal issue by any means.

This would be why I don't think this issue will be getting anywhere anytime soon. As many women as there are that complain about women in gaming, there are just as many that gleefully cosplay these sexy women and actually enjoy playing a sexy woman. So are current trends going to stop? Most definitely not. Are some women going to stop complaining? Most certainly not. Personally, I say let the industry be what it is. As many women go around shouting out they hate the way women look in games, many more enjoy it, so why not just enjoy our games for what they are? After all, they're games. Their purpose is entertainment, they're meant to be enjoyed. If you don't like the game, the answer's simple: Don't play it.

 

[TehCookie]

One of my biggest pet peeves is jiggle physics on breasts. That is not pleasant, women wear bras for a reason. How the character is written is the other main turn-off, you can have a sexy character where sexy is part of her character. That's one of the reasons a lot of women like Bayonetta, even if she has tons of fanservice it's part of how she's written and who she is. If you have someone with the personality of a blow up doll or someone who is suppose to be shy and reserved yet wearing a bikini I get annoyed at it.

I can't get involved with a game with tons of fanservice. I can still enjoy it in a low brow way like how people enjoy action movies but I can't take any game with it seriously. Even if it's pandering to me like DMC4's lucifer scene. However when it's in a serious game I find it to be a lot more jarring. When playing the beginning of Mass Effect 2 my reaction to Miranda's ass constantly in the camera was something like this:

Well written characters all around makes games more engaging, and men in games suffer from bad writing just as much as women. One of the best ways to empower woman is just to have them look practical. They don't have to look ugly, but they should look like they are able to do the job they are suppose to. Sexy and sexualized are two different things.

There's no problem enjoying fanservice games from time to time, but I want to enjoy some games without that as well. As a feminist (as much as Escapist hates that word) I believe in equality, so men and women should have equal amounts of fanservice and manservice! I don't care if that means the new form of conversation is switching back and forth from a man's ass to a woman's ass or less fanservice in general especially in games that don't need it.

oh btw i'm a girl