Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[the December King]

It makes significantly more sense for transgender people to ask whether this is an issue, since it will be relevant to a significantly higher proportion of encounters, rather than having it the other way round.

You've not provided any moral imperative for why trans people should disclose something that most of them consider an unimportant characteristic.

MarsAtlas, this one part of your post felt insincere, but as you have repeatedly said, you know yourself (as a transgender) better than others (ostensibly cis), so instead I'll ask you -and please correct me if I'm wrong in assuming- but spending a large portion of your life trying to change something that fundamental about yourself to better match your perceived self seems to be a huge deal, highly important to yourself, and one that I would have thought important to share with a potential future love interest, as with the sharing of the rest of your life?

I'm sorry, it's none of my business. But I'm fascinated by the situation that transgendered people must find themselves in in scenarios that others may have never given a second thought to... And I can't escape the feeling that, as a heterosexual male, I would feel horribly duped if I were to enter a relationship with a woman to find out that much later she had not told me that she was transgender. It would upset me, and I don't know what I'd do, though I suspect my reaction would not be a violent one (I'm not particularly aggressive). On the other hand, if transgendered people are often met with murder for even disclosing that kind of information to lovers who felt enraged at the revelation, then I can see why at the very least it would give you pause.

Quite a conundrum.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

As for trans people. You can demand equal rights all you want, but you cannot demand that other people be sexually interested in you. And the reality is, whether you like it or not, the vast majority of heterosexual men would not consent to sleeping with someone who is transgender/transsexual, and would feel violated to find this out after the fact.

But the thing is, you already were sexually interested in them. The only thing that changes for at least post Sex Reassignment Surgery trans people is the "used to be a man" thing. (Sidenote: I'm completely fine with anyone who doesn't want to have sex with a trans woman who doesn't undergo SRS, that's fine due to probably how you want to have the sex, but I still haven't wrapped my head around post SRS scares and never have.) People freak the fuck out after having sex with someone who is transsexual. As the video said, these men are mostly distressed by the possibility of sleeping with a trans woman and enjoying the experience without knowing she's trans, so they don't prefer trans women, but still don't have a problem sleeping with them.

Going back to the "small dick" example, that was rather bafflingly thrown around earlier. I don't believe you have any moral obligating disclose this information under normal circumstance. However, if you go out of your way to sell yourself on the size of your dick to a person whom you have good reason to suspect would not sleep with you if they knew the truth, yeah, in that case you should probably tell them.

Can't this be leveled at ugly/make up wearing cisgender women too? Eh, forget it. Call me crazy, but I don't know trans women going around professing their womanhood to get laid or in relationships or lying about being trans when asked. Many either have rather feminine bodies prior to any treatment anyways or they're "visibly trans". Also, that comparison of yours would only seem apt if I heard non-SRS trans women raving about the glorious vaginas they don't actually have.

As strange as this sounds, it is possible to be sexually attracted (and not) to people for more than just their physical appearance. There are people who accidentally sleep with their own biological siblings and enjoy it, but become disgusted after finding out. There are people who sleep with sex offenders, who would probably have less attraction to them if they knew they've fuck children or raped women.

In more examples of enjoying stuff that you would be disgusted by if you found out the truth, I'm pretty sure seamen isn't toxic, yet, if someone were to ejaculate into your food and you enjoyed it without knowing, I don't think the lack of physical harm negates your ability to be retroactively disgusted by it after finding out.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Okay, this is something I don't get. I can understand if you simply don't find a penis attractive when you're attracted to women, or you don't find someone attractive while or after they've transitioned using hormone therapy, but why does it matter to so many people what gender someone was born?

Ya know...it really doesn't matter whether or not you understand it. If someone is just uncomfortable sleeping with a transexual, that's their prerogative.

I wasn't saying that it's not okay because I can't understand it, I was saying I can't understand it.

Honestly? It's the same reason I have trouble getting off to someone whose gone through heavy elective cosmetic surgery. Call me a bigot if you must, but in the end of the day it's still just a visual equivalent to the real thing. Also, it's a tad more important thing than a simple visual aesthetic detail. A whole lot more people would care about a person being transgender than hidden stretch marks or cellulite. It's probably not as strong as the STD comparison but it's certainly not as innocent as the whole "unsightly gut" thing.

Would you have an issue with someone getting elective cosmetic surgery to hide a physical deformity that they were born with? From the comments that I've heard from a lot of people on this site, that's exactly what it feels like.

Could you try to explain how someone being transgender matters more than just physically? I'm really not clear on any of that

You're making the same mistake that they are, its outside of your own personal experience about why they feel that way so you accuse them of "having something to work out" without really trying to both understanding why and respecting it. I always try to be careful when talking about things like this but it isn't a very common thing, for most of history it hasn't even been recognised or acknowledged for the most part.

Medical science has only recently started to unravel the reasons and ways of helping transgendered people, for lots of people the idea of someone being born as the wrong gender is unthinkable and (I apologise to anyone offended by this word as its not how I think) its even alien to a few.

They cannot conceive of it, so they invent reasons based on their own experience. Most are rubbish, some are simply taken from what others have said. Even for many progressive and tolerant people its akin to explaining to a blind man what the colour green is, or a deaf person reading about music but we either try to understand or we understand on an intellectual (certainly not claiming to be intellectual though) level about whats going on. Even though I don't feel the same way I can intellectually understand why people might feel like that and how people are often not responsible for feelings they have, I also try to respect it as well until it causes them to start mistreating others or having no respect themselves.

People cannot be held accountable for what they cannot understand, they are certainly accountable if that ever causes their behaviour to cross the line and are prejudicial, discriminatory, abusive and violent but simply preferring to avoid sexual encounters with a transgendered person is an inherent right. So is not being subjected to the psychological trauma that a deceitful encounter might bring, having sex without full consent is wrong and unless someone is fully convinced of consent they shouldn't carry on.

So you're making the same mistake, the question is are you capable of stepping back and being more understanding to the viewpoints of others?

Am I? If someone is okay with interracial marriage, but they get a pang of disgust whenever they see a black man and white woman together, why should they be okay with that? If your rational mind supports something, but there is still a part of you that reels in rejection from it, I can't imagine why it would be something you'd want to embrace as part of yourself.

Of course, I'm working on the assumption that they believe that trans-sexuality is a legitimate condition in the first place. If not... then I have to ask why being a tolerant person requires you to not take a stand against intolerance.

I understand pretty well why transsexuality is difficult to grasp and accept. As someone who's comfortable with their gender, it's incredibly difficult to wrap my mind around what it would even feel like to feel uncomfortable with my body. At the very least with homosexuality you have seen women attracted to men and men attracted to women. You know what both look like, you just need to jumble them up. And even then, huge amounts of people were convinced it wasn't a real thing.

I understand how people can believe that trans-sexuality is not a real thing, and how people can say that you shouldn't feed their "delusion". As much as I'm ashamed to admit it, I've been there.

I just think that belief is wrong and harmful, and I will not support them for thinking it. I clearly stated that this was my belief, and not absolute fact.

Back on the subject of whether a transsexual individual should be obligated to share it with sexual partners... I can see some of the points you are making, but it's still a very personal detail about themselves, and one that can bring a lot of grief their way. It's their right to choose not to share it. Nobody else is expected to bare a list of all the factors about them that might make you regret sleeping with them.

I'm not saying it's cut and dry, in general I agree with you, that having sex with someone while they don't know factors that could change their decision makes consent a much fuzzier issue. But... I'm not sure that having sex with someone gives you full license to all of their personal details that might affect your decision. If you know that someone wouldn't have sex with you because you're a transsexual, you probably have an obligation to halt the encounter (as well as, why would you want it in the first place?). Otherwise, I'm inclined to say that it would be considerate to make sure they're okay with it, but you shouldn't be obligated to out yourself for them

 

[Mister K]

I wish, I really wish, that one day people on the internet won't consider themselves special snowflakes, whose opinion equals truth. I wish that nobody would give a damn about them besides their friends, relatives and so on.

Well, OT I guess: I hope Obsidian will do what every sensible company would do and ignore it. This line was funny and if you don't feel like it and think it is offensive, well, nobody is forcing you to play.

And no, I won't contribute to the shitstorm happening in this thread. I'll just say that while lying and not telling the truth aren't equal, they are both quite disgusting.

EDIT: You know what? Fuck all of it. I am yet to play the game and I am really interested in it, so I am making a happy thread about it. Will post link soon.

EDIT 2: Here it is: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.873131-Pillars-of-Eternity-your-opinion-so-far

 

[Redryhno]

, but we don't DO discussions here. We just yell about social media and demonstrate our disdain for "social justice" by talking about it every fucking second of every fucking day.

Pillars of Eternity gaming topic? Couldn't even stay on the front page. Pillars of Eternity drama topic? 5 pages and counting. Woop. Carry on, warriors.

If anyone wants to talk about the GAME I'm down for that. That's what everyone wanted, right? Less "politics", more games talk? WHOOPS, my eyes rolled right out of my head.

Yeah, I don't get it either. The people who wanted less politics in their games media, also often seem to be the very same people who talk about politics all day. (And yes, 'gender politics' is still politics)

Anyway, I really shouldn't be posting here. Posting in this thread feels like I'm surrounded by a whirlwind of Tasmanian Devils, spinning all around me.

To be fair, Pillars of Eternity gaming discussion has a $40 barrier to entry, and still apparently has a huge amount of game-breaking bugs to be patched out that isn't going to be getting a new influx of people in it(whoo-hoo, the Obsidian ineptitude/curse continues after twenty odd years still...), this is text anyone can see on the community page of in-game screenshots.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Ya know...it really doesn't matter whether or not you understand it. If someone is just uncomfortable sleeping with a transexual, that's their prerogative.

I wasn't saying that it's not okay because I can't understand it, I was saying I can't understand it.

Eh, fair enough.

Apologies for misconstruing your position.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

snip

Ok...so you don't have an answer and only made the last response as a catch-22? People aren't allowed to be uncomfortable with someone that spent a substantial part of their life as one gender wishing to be another and the rest as the gender they want wanting to bone them and having second thoughts about the boning on account of personal reasons? You said to let them down easy, and I asked how with something that was supposed to be taken as a funny and you then go and say that it shouldn't matter? Which is it buddy?

I'm well aware that your response wasn't supposed to be a serious portrayal of how you'd let someone down easy. I was just saying that of course there's no way to ensure somebody's not going to feel shitty after you strip down to nothing and you realize you're not attracted to them. That doesn't mean that there aren't ways to let them down that will make them feel slightly less shitty.

What that response would be? I have no idea, I've never been in a situation like that and I'd probably fail horribly. However, a good place to start would involve not telling them you don't want to sleep with them because they're really a man.

As for your question, I don't know exactly. I think there's a number of men in the world that are handsome, doesn't mean I want to bump uglies with them, and I certainly don't want to go to bed with a woman to find out she's got the same floppy bit of nerves and skin that I do. And even without floppy appendage, being told is going to have an effect because one of the things that's always gonna be in the back of your mind is that you're technically having sex with a guy at some point(forget the physical characteristics, and even rarer conditions you went to the trouble of making a big deal out of), you're sleeping with somebody that has a genetic makeup even more similar to you than normal, and I just find the idea unsettling, for the same reason I find sex with a gay guy unsettling, I'm not going to complain about them liking it, but I don't find the idea appealing in the slightest.

People can be fine with it and enjoy it, that's fine, but I don't really care for it. Especially if I wasn't told beforehand.

Okay, now I'm curious about the flip side, would it also bother you having sex with a female to male transsexual who had underwent no surgery or hormone therapy?

Someone who's mentally a man, but is "technically a woman"?

I'm just trying to understand, because you seem to put a lot of credence on genetic material that you will never see.

EDIT:

Eh, fair enough.

Apologies for misconstruing your position.

No worries, I probably could have made a point of clarifying that in the post.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

Meh. It's really not that big of a deal. Anything to get some sort of outrage (and consequently some form of counter-outrage) brigade started. And are we really going to start a debate on this? That poem itself isn't a comment on transpeople. You could even interpret it as a negative statement towards the guy, since he friggin' killed himself over almost sleeping/sleeping with a transperson. That said, people who aren't comfortable with sleeping with a transperson does not equal them being afraid of or hating them. And I'd think and hope when and if a transwoman or man wants to sleep with their partner or have a fling with somebody, they'd be comfortable enough with revealing the situation to their partner. I guess people are moreso creating a negative perception of the poem in-game because they feel it reinforces the image of a transperson being a scheming "trap." But I'm wondering how many people actually feel that that's an accurate image of a transperson. I'd say most just aren't very familiar with the concept in the first place.

Obsidian accepted his money. They made that the incentive for backing with that much money. Presumably they didn't specify 'non-offensive' content, though it's not like you can say much of anything slightly contentious without being deemed offensive in some manner on the internet these days. Let it stay.

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

Lol. Anyone who got offended over that little poem should give Eazy's 'Nobody Move' a listen. Then the veins will truly burst from rage!!!

But yeah, more silliness over something meagre. I fully support trans rights, but getting all pissy over a petty joke is just.. it's idiocy.

 

[Phrozenflame500]

...sigh. More pretty twitter bullshit.

Anyway, people are 100℅ justified to politely point out thing's they dislike in the game, the devs are justified to look into it and politely respond to these concerns in a matter they see fit. Meanwhile, people can politely discuss said concerns while respecting the people making them.

And when everyone inevitably violates the "be polite" rules, well we all lose.

 

[The Lunatic]

Oh look. Once again the usual suspects are getting offended silly things that are completely irrelevant.

Perhaps we'll get at least one big release in which the outrage culture won't get their panties/briefs in a bunch about.

It's a game where you find people being hung for no reason, "Hollowborn" children who are put to death and various other things in a fantasy world.

But, no, there's not offensive! Briefly mentioning a poem about a character who is presumed to be sleeping with a trans person is apparently the most offensive thing.

It's a fantasy game, so, let's explore other fantasy scenarios that could entirely be the case, because fuck it, it's fantasy.

The "Man" was actually just a man, using a potion of change appearance to prank the guy!

It's entirely possible, and in this wording, the "Man" would be a correct terminology.

The "Woman" he woo'd was actually a guy all along and didn't identity as transgender.

The game allows you to take the voices of both male and females, regardless of your character's sex.



Also, the person who made that twitter post is the most pathetic creature I've ever seen. They go on snivelling about "Retweet this so we can try and get some pressure on this".

How awful of a person do you have to be to willingly indulge in this and try to get something so trivial and minor removed from a game, because of how you've interpreted it.

 

[kael013]

[quote/]So once again it's on the non-trans to find out if the person they're hitting on is trans. [i/]Why can't they just tell the person!?[/i]

Because its irrelevant to them?[/quote]
Yet it may be relevant to their partner. There are several things I find irrelevant: political affiliation, skin color, religion, etc. Yet many people do care about that stuff when it comes to sexual and romantic partners. Being upfront at the start means less conflicts down the road.

[quote/]Because its generally irrelevant to how they perceive themselves? Do you tell people that you court in explicit terms that you are cisgender?[/quote]
Yep, along with everything else they ask about. It's called decency. They have their own preferences, just like I do.

You have no right to inflict your sexual preferences in the bedroom on somebody else. If they find it objectionable when you try, they'll say no, which is their right. Bringing up BDSM is just getting your sexual perferences out of the way early so that it doesn't cause any interruptions in the bedroom where your partner may object. Get things out of the way early. For some people, if their partner isn't into BDSM, the relationship is a no-go for them. I see no reason why the same shouldn't apply to trans disclosure.

You literally just said the same thing I have been for two posts. I tell them about my kinks. If they don't like them and don't want to indulge we have two choices: either find something else we both enjoy to do or forget getting together. I feel the same should go for trans disclosure. The trans should tell they're trans. If their partner doesn't like that they can end it before things get too far. That's all I've been saying: that when getting into a relationship trans people should be upfront about it from the start.

Also, it helps set a good foundation for the relationship since you're being open and honest.

[quote/]But being trans isn't a fetish. Or an orientation. Having an aversion to trans people, however, is an orientation.[/quote]
Where have I said being trans is a fetish? All I've said is that, like with fetishes, talking about it before hitting the bedroom is good. Imagine a couple gets all the way to the bedroom. There one partner surprises the other by being trans or being engrossed in a fetish the other doesn't like. The second partner then rejects the trans/fetishizer. This hurts both parties as the trans/fetishizer has to deal with the rejection while their partner is hurt because by not telling them the trans/fetishizer showed a lack of trust in them. Disclosure at the start of the relationship would mean this never happened.

How is it on the onus to disclose something that they consider an unimportant part and have no way of knowing if their partner is concerned about it? What if their partner doesn't want to start a relationship with somebody who is infertile - its not their job to be a mind-reader. The person with the hang-up should bring it up themselves if its such an issue.

Yet why would you bring up a hang-up when you thought it didn't apply? "I don't like fucking people with dicks, but that's OK because I'm dating a girl." Why would the person in that situation bring their hang-up, well, up? As far as they know it doesn't apply - will never apply - to that relationship, so there's no reason to talk about it.

Well if my partner never says that they object to something, and then it comes up some time later and they object to it, then that's on them. I'm not a psychic.

Difference of opinion. I think it's on both of you as you should have brought it up before it comes up.

And how am I going to know their preferences if they don't tell me about them?

By asking them? "Hey, I'm trans. [i/]Is that gonna be a problem[/i]? Yes? Alright, see ya."

There is no lie of omission if you don't disclosure that you're trans - unless of course you're going to say that its a lie of omission if you don't disclose that you're cis.

Alright, this is gonna sound patronizing since you're trans, but please bear with me. Transsexuals are people who lack certain sexual characteristics of their chosen gender, yet look, act, and all-around [i/]are[/i] their chosen gender. Other people will view them as their chosen gender and thus, for example, people attracted to women can be attracted to a transwoman thinking she's a cisgender woman. If the transwoman allows them to keep thinking that after getting into a relationship with them - knowing they are attracted to women - the transwoman is keeping her partner in the dark. He'll think that she's a cisgendered woman and this will make the inevitable revelation hurt more by adding in the fact that the transwoman didn't trust her partner enough to tell that fact. How is that not a lie by omission when the very definition is "leaving an important fact out in order to foster a misconception"?

Also, yes you're right. Not telling you're cisgendered is also a lie of omission. An, in my opinion, unlikely one as most people who see a man or a woman assume they're a man or a woman, respectively, but it's still one nonetheless.

 

[The Lunatic]

Yet it may be relevant to their partner. There are several things I find irrelevant: political affiliation, skin color, religion, etc. Yet many people do care about that stuff when it comes to sexual and romantic partners. Being upfront at the start means less conflicts down the road.

Oh, don't you know? Given I'm homosexual, it's up to every girl who shows interest in me to ask if I'm gay rather than up to me to tell them.

Withholding information that may affect consent basically makes such consent invalid.

I'm not sure why this is such a difficult notion for people to get their head about, but, that's simply how it is.

"It's not physically hurting anyone" is not a valid defence.

 

[Redryhno]

Okay, now I'm curious about the flip side, would it also bother you having sex with a female to male transsexual who had underwent no surgery or hormone therapy?

Someone who's mentally a man, but is "technically a woman"?

I'm just trying to understand, because you seem to put a lot of credence on genetic material that you will never see.

Yes, but for a slightly different reason, I'm a straight guy, as I said in the post, I can find other men good looking, but I don't really want to see them naked, and I certainly don't want to weiner-boop with them. A beatiful transwoman may have always been mentally that, but their body was(or is depending on how you think about it) still a man. A strapping transman may be just that, but they also were a woman at one point and that's somewhat weird to think about.

Being involved with a trans person means you are involved with both sides of the gender/sex/whatever the correct wording is gap. At least that's how I'm seeing it, I mean, outside of like two trans individuals on the internet, I haven't really been able to ask questions without them getting offended that I have a mindset that's got alot of ignorance in it, so I don't know a huge amount. Doesn't really help the pursuit of understanding/knowledge/etc when the subject is so easily offended and distrustful of being asked questions that they claim only they can answer.

I don't claim to understand much of it beyond a primal level, but it just doesn't help much when you're not allowed to ask questions or question reasonings.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

Because there are significantly more people who are not okay with. If you have to make an assumption, why assume the least likely option?

In my own personal experience, making that assumption cuts out a huge segment of the population.

Making an assumption doesn't mean you have to commit to it one hundred percent, and stick by it in the face of further evidence. But, if you are going to start from a base assumption, why pick the least likely option?

Oh good, another race comparison. Well, if it's worth saying, it's worth saying twice I guess.

The difference between these two is the fact that very very few people don't care even in the slightest about eight generations of genealogy (and most wouldn't know it anyway), whereas, a very sizable proportion (mostly probably the majority) of cisgener people do care about the birth sex of the person they are with.

I pointed out earlier in this thread that this an instance of argumentum ad populum, an appeal to popularity. I'm not going to waste time digging through seven pages when I'm already going to have at least three more responses by the time I'm finished responding to you, so have this link.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagon

If you're not going to "waste time" arguing the point, then I don't see any reason to "waste time" responding to you. But whatever, I guess I'll waste my time.

You made a comparison to race, and so I addressed it. In a way, your response is borderline argumentum ad logicam, since you have done nothing but throw links at me and not contest my point. Besides, I dispute the idea that demographic sizes are irrelevant to this discussion.
And I stand by my point that without reasonable suspicion that anyone would care about eight generations of genealogy, there is no reason to disclose it. Yet, with very reasonable suspicion that people will care about your sex at birth, then you should. It's not an argumentum ad populum when popularity is a valid factor into the debate.

I'm not advocating for legal action, but simply from a moral stand point that you should disclose this information if you have a reasonable suspicion that the person you are with would not consent to sex if they knew the truth. And yes, math does have everything to do with whether or not you have reasonable suspicion.

Gonna have to disagree. If its such a big concern to them, they should bring it up themselves. You're also saying that there are less people who would contest a relationship with somebody who has a heritage of mixed races, but I assure you its still a numericially abundant amount. Should they have to disclose? What about people who are sterile? Some people won't want to be in a relationship with somebody who is sterile, is it on the onus of sterile people to read the minds of their potential partners?

I assure you it isn't nearly abundant enough to compare to the number of people who wouldn't be okay with sleeping with someone who is transgender. It really depends on the number of generations, but I doubt even the white supremacists would care more than 4 or 5 generations back, and most people are not white supremacists! I doubt the majority of people would care more than one generation back, if that. And that's not to mention that virtually everyone has some degree of racial mixing in their close ancestry.

Do you see why they are essentially the inverse here?
With race, there is only a tiny minority who care about mixed race, and a massive majority of people who are mixed race. In this case, it's safest to assume that mixed race is the default, and not caring is the default, therefore, the onus is on those who care.

With transgender, there is a majority who care about sex at birth, and a tiny minority of people who are transgender. In this case, it's safest to assume that cisgender is the default, and caring about sex at birth is the default, therefor, the onus is on those are transgender.

As for whether or not people should disclose other aspects, such as, whether or not they are sterile. It really depends on what you're in it for. If it's a one night stand, you have no reason to suspect that anyone would care. If it's marriage to a person you and have a reasonable suspicion (yes I know how much you hate argumentum ad populum, despite how relevant it is) that they desire to have children with you, then yes, you should probably tell you partner you're sterile. The inalienability to procreate is a significant thing for many people.

Yeah, you're right, fuck those cis women.

The reason they would feel insulted is because asking each date/causal partner whether someone is transgender is rather rare, as such, if some where to ask them there would have to be something about them that gave this suspicion. They would probably assume the person asking the question thinks they have manly features, or something that would make them seem likely to be male at birth.

This still fails to be a problem of trans people. Its a contradiction of priorities among some cis people. They're willing to dump them if they're trans, and they'd not want to get far in the relationship only to find out that they're trans, but they're wholly unwilling to ask about it because they're afraid that if they do, the relationship might not go anywhere. Its ludicrous and their own fault if they fall into a situation where further down the line they find out that their partner is trans because they were reluctant to ask an important question. They didn't ask enough questions about something they feel strongly about because they never bothered to ask.

So this is just a case of cisgender, don't care.

I've already made my point about whose responsibility it should be to ask/tell, this is really just a continuation of that.

Although, I will add something that will probably have everyone screaming "victim blaming".
If you aren't going to consider this from a basic curtsey position, perhaps you should consider it from a more pragmatic standpoint regarding personal safety. Concerning all the people who violently beat transgender people for not being upfront about it, would that not be a good reason to be the one who tells, rather than relying on others to ask and simply hoping they aren't some violent psychopath? Yes, I know, it's heresy to suggest people adapt to a violent and intolerant world rather than stick their fingers in their ears and pretend they're in utopia, but it seems transgender have even more to lose here.

So I ask you, what exactly to trans people have to gain by relying on others to ask? A greater chance of getting a partner, and a greater chance to be fucking murdered by that partner? It just seems like a lose-lose situation for both cis and trans.

Because whether or not they consider it unimportant, others do, and would not consent if they knew the truth.

Some other people find it important and some wouldn't engage in a relationship if they knew. And again, appeal to popularity. Just because the majority of people like it, doesn't mean they're obliged to it,and vice versa for a majority who dislike it. I know a woman who can't have sex using her vagina, but she manages to get by. She's not obliged to say "hey, my vagina? you're not getting in there", as nobody is obliged to vaginal sex. There's also the fact that there's plenty of alternatives, alternatives that people actually prefer.

For the ten billionth time, whether or not you should disclose this information is dependent upon how rare the occurrence is, and how often and how much people are likely to care. I've not heard of anyone who would feel violated to find out that they've bedded a woman whose vagina is unsuitable for sex, so no, she has no real reason to disclose that. Hypothetically, if this was something that a significant number of people had a very large problem with (up to and including, becoming so distraught that they consider murder), then yes, she should probably disclose that.

Besides, when has someone considering something unimportant been ... important? A lot of people consider transgender right to be unimportant.

Right, and a fair enough opinion to be had. After all, it doesn't really affect a lot of people. They just don't get to dictate how trans people should feel about things.

Okay, and you should trying to dictate how cis people feel about sexuality.

 

[Jux]

To be honest, I didn't get the transmisogyny vibe from the poem, but then again, I'm not trans. I don't know their experiences or what they are going through. If they say this poem makes them uncomfortable, it's not my place to tell them to shut up or get over it. Sometimes, things affect people in different ways. Things we don't care about are deeply offensive to others or are making them uncomfortable by reminding them of unpleasant things in their lives. Unlike a joke, a transgender person is an actual living person, so I don't really feel sorry for several words grouped together for an attempted comedic effect, while I might feel sorry for a living person. I will hope that people will one day learn that compassion towards others trumps their divine right to say whatever jokes or shit they want without facing any repercussions.

It's nice to see people that don't automatically assume that their own experiences should be the default position and that any empathy should only be doled out if one can directly relate to the issues at hand. There is a lot in this thread I want to address, but it'll have to wait for a bit till the site let's me quote people properly again. This though was worth typing out the post number by hand to respond to.

 

[kael013]

Yet it may be relevant to their partner. There are several things I find irrelevant: political affiliation, skin color, religion, etc. Yet many people do care about that stuff when it comes to sexual and romantic partners. Being upfront at the start means less conflicts down the road.

Oh, don't you know? Given I'm homosexual, it's up to every girl who shows interest in me to ask if I'm gay rather than up to me to tell them.

What? No, it's up to you to tell them you're homosexual before it gets too out of hand. If an interested woman has doubts about certain things about you (gender, orientation, etc.), [i/]then[/i] it's up to her to ask instead of relying on you to read her mind.
EDIT: If you're being sarcastic, sorry, but when I'm in debate mode I don't register sarcasm easily and, well, it's nigh impossible for text to convey it.

[quote/]Withholding information that may affect consent basically makes such consent invalid.

I'm not sure why this is such a difficult notion for people to get their head about, but, that's simply how it is.

"It's not physically hurting anyone" is not a valid defence.[/quote]
^This. This is exactly what I've been saying.