Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[Pr0]

Please continue to make a spectacle of yourself for the purposes of self exposure. Cause I frankly don't care what you think.

Fine, but you're wrong and clearly don't what you're talking about, made evident by how you phrased it.

I'm wrong, so here is a peer reviewed article from the LGBT Studies group at Ohio University [http://www.ohio.edu/lgbt/resources/transitioning.cfm] to explain to you how wrong I'm not.

I clearly don't know what I'm talking about. Please direct your attention to the estrogen therapy section of the article.

Thank you and have a nice day.

Captcha:
they are watching

Yes they are captcha, yes they are.

 

[Skatologist]

Then why are you trying to get it removed?

I never said I was trying to get it removed and neither did Mars. :/

No one was "offended" by Tim Shafer's performance, they just called it out for the stupidity that it was. And this meme that GamerGate regularly makes rape and death threats needs to die already, because it has no basis in reality. Why are you bringing up Tim Shafer and GamerGate anyway? It has absolutely nothing to do with the latest progressive campaign to censor developers because of their hurt feelings.

It's not a meme, I can fucking show these "jokes". I'll give an example, @j_millerworks (supposed creator of NYS) said "#PAXEast2015 There's 337 HIV infected hypodermic needles hidden around the venue and in the hand of attendees sticking ppl trying to find them". And again, backer =/= developer and devs changing things for any reason =/= censorship.

Also, GG seems about as relevant to this as dragging up that image I'm guessing you got from KiA, 8chan, or the megathread.

 

[Silence]

Since Jim Sterling posted this:

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling 23 Min
So Tim Schafer makes a joke with a sock and it's an outrage, but a joke about a subject that's gotten trans people murdered is just lols.

on Twitter, I will now try to find out how many people got killed because of this joke. Or something similar.

The implication that trans women are gay men trying to trick straight men into having sex with them? Yes, it has. In fact, earlier this year, its what caused a trans woman to be set on fire.

Someone has sources?

Here is one of the more infamous examples. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Gwen_Araujo]

Thank you.

Because it assumes that these Transgenders are so careless, that they would try to sleep with someone before disclosing the fact. The story is kind of transphobic.

So you're blaming transgender for being murdered, rather than the person who kills them because they're transgender?

No, but I understand how you can interpret it this way. Hence why I said that it sounds stupid.
Of course the murderers are guilty for murder. And murder is never okay, even if you would find out someone stole all your money and left you bankrupt.

Reading the wikipedia case I realize I saw sex as intercourse. And the wikipedia article does not.

Now I have context. That means, now I can have empathy for the people with an opposing viewpoint than mine. I don't know if I will change my stance on it, but this is better than being offended, then being counter-offended, etc.etc.

 

[ZiggyE]

Then why are you trying to get it removed?

I never said I was trying to get it removed and neither did Mars. :/

So you're on our side then? Great. Why are you arguing?

It's not a meme, I can fucking show these "jokes". I'll give an example, @j_millerworks (supposed creator of NYS) said "#PAXEast2015 There's 337 HIV infected hypodermic needles hidden around the venue and in the hand of attendees sticking ppl trying to find them". And again, backer =/= developer and devs changing things for any reason =/= censorship.

Also, GG seems about as relevant to this as dragging up that image I'm guessing you got from KiA, 8chan, or the megathread.

Oh no, one tweet, out of at leat 30,000 active participants, what a nightmare. Meanwhile the progressives have sent people knives, had people kicked out of their homes, had people fired, actually SENT PEOPLE NEEDLES (you know, instead of just joking about it) all for having the nerve to demand integrity in games journalism.

But once again, none of this is relevant at all to obsidian's poem, so why bring it up? Are you not interested in discussing the issue in good faith? Of course, progressives rarely are, that's why terms like "cisplain" exist in the first place. To silence dissent.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

In this particular instance the decision making ability of the backer >> developer ... he paid for it and the developer took his money after approval.

 

[Czann]

Seriously? People get offended by silly things like this?

I guess lying that you didn't used to be a Man is OK then.

 

[Redryhno]

No, you aren't. You would be if you attack and demean them for it though. If it comes out that you find you're just not attracted to them, you have no obligation to continue with sex. As long as you're a decent person in letting them down about it, because that would feel really shitty to have someone tell you.

It might be more courteous to tell someone beforehand, and might probably make things go smoother too, but how often do you want to kill the mood with "Oh, hey, I was born a man, so if you're still okay with this...", or "Before we continue I want you to know I am missing a lot of teeth"? But I wouldn't accuse someone of tricking someone else if they don't want to give their biological history before any intimate encounter

I don't mean to be that guy, but exactly how do you go about doing that?

I mean, you're not sleeping with them because they had an overly floppy piece of nerves and skin between their legs, so how do you go about it, because essentially it's:

"dude, you were a dude and I don't like dudes in that dudely way. I mean, I like them in a dudely fashion when we're just all dudes, but dude you were a dude and I was looking for a dudette, not a dudedutteish, for this."

No matter how you say it, it is going to hurt because the reason is because they're trans.

 

[Pr0]

This is a sentiment you see all of the time, sometimes to the extent that people will attack and beat the person who "duped" them. Usually it's just used to ridicule them or demonize them for daring to sleep with you without telling them you were really a man. Because god forbid a transexual individual want a sexual encounter as their preferred gender.

So straight men who are uncomfortable with the idea have no rights?

No right to assault somebody just because they're trans? Yes, thats correct, you don't have the right to assault somebody simply because they're trans.

Legally you don't have the right to assault anyone unless they've assaulted you.

But I think it would test the patience of any one if they suddenly had a penis waved in their face that they weren't expecting. Man, woman, trans, straight, lesbian...whatever.

That doesn't say that assaulting people for being dishonest is acceptable, but that doesn't mean the dishonesty that leads to the potential of an assault isn't the fault of the person that perpetuates it.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

So straight men who are uncomfortable with the idea have no rights?

Yes. If you are a man you have no right to refuse a strongk independent transsexual women if you thought she was born female but then it turns out she wasn't, otherwise you're a bigot. Or at least that's what progressives have told me in the past.

Damn right! That's exactly what I was about to sa-

No, you aren't. You would be if you attack and demean them for it though. If it comes out that you find you're just not attracted to them, you have no obligation to continue with sex. As long as you're a decent person in letting them down about it, because that would feel really shitty to have someone tell you.

Oh, wait. No it was kind of the opposite of that. How about I take the questions that are directed at me from now on, okay?

So straight men who are uncomfortable with the idea have no rights? Not that I'm justifying abuse, violence, murder or anything because nothing justifies that so don't try and flip it around that way or strawman and just answer the question directly.

I have great sympthy for transexual people, it cannot be easy based on everything I have read and watched but when people are having a sexual encounter the rights and wishes of each person involved need to be respected. They should never be ridiculed but they need to have the same respect for anyone they sleep with and take their wishes into account, that respect is an important part of consent.

Can that lead to some awkward or difficult discussions? At times certainly, I doubt its always possible to sound the topic out in a roundabout way. In the best possible world it wouldn't be necessary as people wouldn't care we don't live in that world though, gender realignment, hormones and other treatments are all fairly new to society and it may take time for perceptions to change (if ever).

You have every right to be uncomfortable, and honestly it's probably a far more decent thing to not have sex with someone if you're uncomfortable with it as opposed to try and pretend you aren't for their sake. Maybe giving some thought as to why you feel uncomfortable might be a good idea though (using general you here). If you feel uncomfortable because you aren't able to find them attractive, then that's okay. You can't really help that. If you feel uncomfortable because you can't help thinking that they're really the opposite gender, then you probably have something that you should work out. In either case, you probably shouldn't sleep with them until you actually do feel comfortable.

I'd agree with you that it's certainly better to tell someone beforehand, and while I'm not a transsexual, I suspect it's what I'd do if I were in that position. I don't agree that it's something that you owe someone else though. Especially since if you go about telling someone on the outset they might just right you off when they might find they don't care once they get to know you better.

I also wonder why the focus is on Men and Male to Female transgendered people here as well, I bet there have been instances of verbal abuse, discrimination and/or of physical violence to some degree when other transgendered people have had sex with a gender/sexuality that are uncomfortable with the idea without prior knowledge.

I don't doubt it. The reason why I have been using man with a male to female transsexual is just because that's the scenario that was presented, and the scenario that gets chocked up for laughs in all of the comedies. It's also just simpler in terms of pronouns.

 

[laggyteabag]

If you weren't allowed to offend anybody when telling a joke, then the world would be a much less funny place.

People are more than happy to laugh at someone else, but the second the humour balls rolls up to them, it is suddenly a huge PC and SJW debate for some people.

Just let it slide. Fucking hell.

 

[ZiggyE]

Okay, so let's use the same line of thought to suggest this poem is tasteless as well. Why try to censor it just because you don't like it?

Who's trying to censor it? I see no petitions on whitehouse.gov about it, nobody writing their local congressperson, nobody contacting the FTC. On the front page of this thread, I see one tweet from a person who disliked the joke and said that they should've said no to the backer. They didn't even do a stupid hashtag like "#ChangeTheJoke" or anything like that, so you can't even argue that artists willfully and happily exercising their rights as an artist is censorship. All she said was "I think you should've said no to the backer." Based on how much of my day I'm spending responding to people being offended by other people being offended, I'd have preferred it if the joke was omitted or rejected in favour of an alternative as well.

Progressives have been tweeting to Obsidian all day about this, to the point where John Sawyer had to directly respond to one of them. So I'd say a lot of people are trying to have it removed, if not the vast majority.

Well if you apply your reasoning taht giving negative attention towards them is censorship, then she most definitely is being censored. Hell, you're censoring her yourself by talking negatively about her. Then there's the fact that she's getting dogpiled on Twitter as we speak.

Aren't you in the school of thought that self-censorship from external pressure isn't actual censorship? Criticising someone for things they have said or do isn't censorship. Demanding they retract something to the point they feel compelled to is. As far as I'm aware, very few people are demanding she not say such things, only pointing out how terrible they are.

No, they came to the conclusion that the poem wasn't offensive. The poem is about a trans person. He had sex with her. You're going to know if she has a penis or not before you have sex with her, so its a logical assumption that she doesn't, so he proceeded, assuming her to be a cis woman, and later found out that the assumption was wrong.

Maybe he was just drunk or it was well disguised? I'm not sure if the middle ages had sophisticated ways to reconstruct a vagina out of someone's penis, but then again they have magic. If he or she didn't have a penis then he might not have ever known she was born male, so he must have found out somehow, no? See all the different perspectives someone can have about this poem that don't align with yours? It's almost like the poem is ambiguous or something and not made to be taken all that seriously. Once again we could just clear this up if we talked to the backer, but I see no one trying to do that. I mean the fact the poem even says "turns out he was a man" suggests to me that it might have actually been a man instead of a transsexual woman.

Its prejudice if somebody comes to the conclusion that a trans woman is a "really a man".

Or maybe it was just a man. Stop telling people how they think.

 

[2fish]

Overall I can see why some people are upset as this may relate to their history. On the other hand I can see why it is funny. Low brow, simple, dumb but a funny little rhyme about a really dumb guy that killed himself.

My real question is why is this the hill we have chosen to die on? Why not the big one called equal rights? I could support you if you wanted everyone to have the same basic human rights. I have a hard time when people are made about jokes unless they are malicious. From the pictures I cannot tell if it is malicious and if it is malicious if it is towards trans or suicidal people.

While I am a white male and have not really been a target in that sense I have been target for my medical crap. I have found that most people that are malicious are stupid or cowards. Therefore their opinions don't matter (also it is fun to convince them I am contagious as I am shaking their hand).

Now that I have undoubtedly pissed someone off can we just agree equality is good and we should aim for the big goal and not fight over every thing that comes up?

 

[GundamSentinel]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

So if I go to bed with someone who I think is a woman, but turns out to be a man, and I'm pissed about that, I'm transphobic?

The levels of stupidity one can encounter on social media are absolutely staggering.

 

[ZiggyE]

So straight men who are uncomfortable with the idea have no rights?

Yes. If you are a man you have no right to refuse a strongk independent transsexual women if you thought she was born female but then it turns out she wasn't, otherwise you're a bigot. Or at least that's what progressives have told me in the past.

Damn right! That's exactly what I was about to sa-

No, you aren't. You would be if you attack and demean them for it though. If it comes out that you find you're just not attracted to them, you have no obligation to continue with sex. As long as you're a decent person in letting them down about it, because that would feel really shitty to have someone tell you.

Oh, wait. No it was kind of the opposite of that. How about I take the questions that are directed at me from now on, okay?

Why are you assuming I was talking about or to you? I was talking to J Tyran about my own previous arguments with OTHER progressives. I think making assumptions like that might be a sign of narcissism, but fortunately you're a pretty humble guy so I know that not to be the case.

 

[ZiggyE]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

So if I go to bed with someone who I think is a woman, but turns out to be a man, and I'm pissed about that, I'm transphobic?

The levels of stupidity one can encounter on social media are absolutely staggering.

Apparently the conversation here has something to do with violence against transsexuals but the only violence the man in the poem ever commits is to himself.

 

[ZiggyE]

it doesn't bother me if people are transgender, gay, bi or intersex but its just good manners to tell someone that you where once a guy/girl before the pants hit the floor. i don't know about you lot but if i take a girl home i expect that girl to have two x chromosomes.

What if you have a really small dick? Or you have an unsightly gut that doesn't show under your shirt? Or maybe an unattractive medical condition, like burns?

Should you be obligated to tell your potential partners beforehand of all the qualities they might find undesirable as a similar courtesy?

Wouldn't they be able to see that shit before they start fucking and whatnot? It would be more akin to having an STD and not informing your partner before you do the deed.

I always tell girls about my small dick before having sex. It's only polite ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[GundamSentinel]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

So if I go to bed with someone who I think is a woman, but turns out to be a man, and I'm pissed about that, I'm transphobic?

The levels of stupidity one can encounter on social media are absolutely staggering.

Apparently the conversation here has something to do with violence against transsexuals but the only violence the man in the poem ever commits is to himself.

If in that case there were violence against that particular transsexual I would almost understand it (but obviously not condone it). He/she clearly had no respect for his/her bedmate's preferences.