Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[Creslin321]

Wow, so I made an account just to respond to this lol.

I have seen a lot of arguments online stating that this joke is okay because it's within a fiction and thus does not necessarily represent the views of the developers. That's all well and good, but I want to take this a step further.

Instead of taking the joke literally, let's examine sentiment behind the joke. The main idea of the joke is that the man sleeps with someone he thought was a woman, turned out to be a man, and then is upset at this.

In what universe is this transphobic?

Honestly, in this scenario, what would you prefer the man have done? Just decided to be happy that he was deceived into sleeping with a man? I mean, what would YOU have done if this happened to you?

A straight person, not wanting to sleep with someone of the same sex is not transphobic, homophobic, or any kind of phobic, it's called "being straight." I mean, I'm not going to call a gay guy "heterophobic" because he doesn't want to sleep with a woman.

I'm sorry, but someone's sexual preference does not make them X-phobic.

The triviality of things that people take offense at nowadays never ceases to amaze me.

 

[DementedSheep]

Transmisogyny? is that a thing or are they just mashing terms.

It is, and was coined by Julia Serano (a person I generally agree with in regards to trans issues) but its a term that I personally object to myself. Its essentially a way of saying "transgender women face both transphobia and sexism against women" which can be true in separate instances, but not at the same time. Thats kind of the point of transphobia - they're not recognizing you as your identifying gender, so the treatment they inflict on a trans woman wouldn't necessarily be misogyny. Some might say that it is, based on disdain for feminine traits, regardless of whether they're from a woman or a man, but thats a whole other argument that has entire books and debates about it already available. The term also excludes transgender men, who are often excluded or otherwise ignored in the transgender community.

OT: Mildly offensive joke that a backer wanted included in the game. I would say that Obsidian probably should've said no to it, but its their game, their choice if they want to edit it or not. I'll be getting the game eventually regardless because Obsidian is one of my favourite developers.

Ah ok, thanks for the explanation. I think the word they would be looking for here is transphobia anyway as there is no misogyny in that poem.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

If they cave, I hope the dude who put it in sues them for breach of contract ... this is not obscene.

I have to live with the horrible memey and SJW stuff, they and Josh should learn to live with a dirty limerick.

 

[Fat Hippo]

You cant just disregard the english language like that words have set meanings and if you just start mashing em together higildy piggildy you are destroying the very culture and traditions upon which we stand.

Damn straight! It's only german-speakers who get to slap words together however they like, don't take it away from us.

Also, the funniest things about this to me is that someone is actually reading the entries on those gravestones (there's bajillions of them), and then giving enough of a shit about it to complain on the internet. And I though I was good at wasting at my time.

The Swedes do it as well. Apparently Spårvagnsaktiebolagsskensmutsskjutarefackföreningspersonalbeklädnadsmagasinsförrådsförvaltarens is a word.

Ah true, it's a germanic rather than an exclusively german thing. But really, pointing out single instances of long words, while entertaining, is missing the point that there is a literally infinite amount of infinitely long words, because the languages just allow you to smush words together however you feel like. Hell, most of the german words used in the english language (Schadenfreude, Blitzkrieg, Kindergarden, Zeitgeist etc.) are all just two words which got glued onto each other to create a new word, with a new meaning.

I actually think it's rather elegant, since it allows you to introduce new words with new meanings that are intuitive to anyone who recognizes the two old words, and therefore doesn't need to look them up or have them explained.

 

[ZiggyE]

Except for the fact that it calls the trans woman a man. Not the man who killed himself calling her a man, mind you, but the gravestone itself.

See, here's the thing about world building. In that setting, someone, some unnamed character, wrote that gravestone. The character who wrote that gravestone is bound by limitations and prejudices about the setting. It's this form of subtle narrative that conveys meaning about the world, information about it and makes it feel alive.

 

[endtherapture]

If they cave, I hope the dude who put it in sues them for breach of contract ... this is not obscene, they have no standing to remove this.

What is considered "obscene" is based on those making the project, not the backer or an outside force. Additionally, there's no real "contract" that you seem to think that there is, so its ridiculous to think that suing Obsidian would be possible. Realistically, if the backer contacts Kickstarter (which is their first step in regards to recourse) they'd get Obsidian to have the backer include something else that isn't considered obscene, and if the backer is being contentious, if they're lucky, Kickstarter will give the user a refund, and if not, they'll just not have Obsidian deliver on it, and there'd be no further recourse because the backer signed the Kickstarter Terms of Service which would make any potential litigation a waste of money and time.

]

If the backer pays $500 for the privilege of having this piece of text in game, and they've taken it away from him and he isn't offered a refund for some reason, I fully expect he has the grounds to go to court or at the very least trading standards to get the stuff he paid for back.

 

[DementedSheep]

Josh Sawyer, game designer at Obsidian, said the producers of the game are looking into the content. So this random Twitter persons opinion is actually being taken seriously, which is a shame.

Damn, that's some oldschool, witty gravestone writing, goodstuff. Also, it has literally nothing in it that could even be considered eyebrow raising, let alone whatever the fuck kind of made up word that bint is using.

Would love to see a source on the Josh Sawyer thing, if only to laugh how pathetic shitkickers get what they want at the expense of actual kickstarter backers.

This at least I can see why it would annoy someone as it using the tired old trans are gross and you should be ashamed if you are ever attracted to one thing though I don't agree with the complaint.

The poem literally has nothing to do with trans people. If that was what they wanted to imply, the wording would a tad different. (I mean, like, they'd write "used to be" instead of "turned out" or something along those lines. As it stands, guy shagged a dude who he thought was a woman for some reason. Jokes like this fall apart once you start thinking about it too much.)

Transmisogyny? is that a thing or are they just mashing terms.

Mashed up. Hell, only one of the three user defined online dictionaries I checked (results no.1, 2 and 3 in google) had the term, and the actual Oxford dictionary thought I wanted to say transmogrify.

A lot of people still refer to transwomen as "men" but yes, it could just be his mistook a gay/bi man for being a women (or hell, maybe they were both pissed as a fart and misgendered each other, it's short humor poem it doesn't go into detail) and edited that into my reply before although usually when you see this joke it's with a cross-dresser or transwomen.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

I never got why showing racism, sexism, etc in fantasy worlds without them being a Bioshock Infinite type where racists=suicidal nazis you have to genocide is terrible? The world Pillars of Eternity is set in doesn't have to obey our standards because it's not our world. Is Game of Thrones a disgusting show because gays are murdered in Westeros and women are treated horribly? No.

 

[ZiggyE]

No, a person in the real world wrote that gravestone. I addressed how this is the root of my distaste for the joke in the same post you're quoting.

"I normally would agree, but in this instance I would argue that it is, not because this is an extension of the fictional universe, but because this is what some backer wanted to put into the game. Its completely unrelated and unattached to the rest of the game. It'd be like if somebody backed the project and was able to put something into the game, and they decided to add a blatantly racist screed."

Its not in-universe, its a person from the real world getting to project their prejudices into the game via a Kickstarter reward and poor oversight by Obsidian. Its not any different than if the backer made a joke where the punchline was that gay people were pedophiles or black people were chimps.

Games are written by real world people. Games often have multiple writers. Simply because someone paid to contribute rather than the other way around doesn't change the fact that that backer is a writer and contributor in the game and has some hand in establishing the world, no matter how small.

What's more the given quote is NOTHING like "gay people are pedophiles".

As an aside, I want to say that when a piece of fiction pokes fun at an entire people group

You're one of very few people who is getting that message from this poem. Have you considered that this might be a me problem of yours instead of a we problem of ours?

 

[ZiggyE]

Oh this is fun. Turns out the twitter user who initially discovered this and kickstarted this controversy is an outright misandrist who says that men should be holocausted for... being men?

Spoiler

I dunno about you, but these comments seem a lot more inflammatory than a short poem that may or may not have been about someone transsexual.

 

[ZiggyE]

They're not a writer for the game world, they're a writer for an easter egg in the game world. They have nothing to do with the rest of the writing of the game. Hell, from what I heard about the game from somebody else, the text blurb might actually contradict how the PoE universe views transgender people.

And easter eggs contribute towards the game world.

Sure it is. Its an offensive sentiment held unjustly towards a group of people. So is the sentiment that transgender women are really just men in extreme drag trying to trick straight men into having sex with them. Its perfecly analogous.

Once again, only a minority of people think this. Some people are even calling into question whether it is about a transwoman at all. I wonder has anyone tried to get in touch with the actual backer himself for context? No? What a surprise.

And you're offended? So what. I don't care if you're offended and neither should obsidian. Perhaps you just WANT to be offended.

No, I'm pretty sure that cisplaining about trans stuff is wrong because its, you know, cisplaining.

Cisplaining is an actual word now? Lol. Yeah, I'm cis. I'm male. I'm heterosexual. Guess what, I'm white too. Does that offend you to the point I'm not entitled to an opinion now?

 

[Pinky's Brain]

there's no real "contract" that you seem to think that there is

Hahaha ... you have never actually read the Kickstarter Terms of Use have you? If you did you'd know they contradict almost every sentence you wrote. Obsidian entered into an (implied in fact) contract with their backers, refunding is not an available option to back out of that contract.

If the backer had contracted them to do something legally obscene it would make the contract invalid, but as I said it's not obscene.

Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they?re inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator?s offer, and forming that contract.

When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward.

 

[BoogieManFL]

At least it rhymed nicely.. It's a game, boo hoo. Deal with it. Would I have let that through? No, because I wouldn't want to deal with someone complaining about it.


Eh.. No one cares about free speech if they can complain about it and get publicity.

Is it really Misogyny? I don't think so, not really.. I would be traumatic if you ended up getting in bed with a gender you weren't going for. So it's cool for a transgender or what have you to be deceptive and seduce someone under false pretenses? In that situation, it does NOT matter what gender you self identify as if you're presenting yourself intimately as something you technically are not. If that someone is not comfortable with that, then you're not any better than someone committing adultery or being a sexual predator.

That's more of an issue here than anything here in my opinion..

 

[Raddra]

Josh Sawyer, game designer at Obsidian, said the producers of the game are looking into the content. So this random Twitter persons opinion is actually being taken seriously, which is a shame.

I wouldn't say its a shame. twitter is a great tool for sharing information.

I think twitter posts should be taken seriously. But I do not think anything should be done in this case. This is hardly offensive, its evidently just a joke, and I say that as a pansexual man. In the words of Rowan Atkinson 'we have to be allowed to insult one another'.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Oh for fuck's sake...
Depicting something is not the same as supporting it!

Otherwise, hey look Nintendo supports animal cruelty with how many chickens Link kicks!
Valve supports cis-gender roles by having Gordon Freeman as a man!
Bungie supports violence against women when Cat/Noble 2 died!


Seriously, when did we games get such thin skin? Is this simply more of tumblr bleeding over into things?

 

[Cerebrawl]

I recognize that particular SJW from twitter, a true devotee to the church of the perpetually offended, a cultist who brooks no heresy and will block you if you say one word of disagreement.

Another frontline useful idiot in the war on gamers, and western civilization, a true champion of cultural marxism.

 

[Pr0]

I think the problem with this, all jokes aside, is that people cannot be held legally liable for slander/libel on Twitter.

And Twitter also has very few moderation rules, so unlike most internet forums where a moderator can immediately go...this person is a troll attempting to create a fight for their own benefit, nothing ever happens to people like this and its up to the internet at large to just put this person on mental ignore.

Now in 99% of cases thats easy enough to do, but here you have the perfect storm of a trolls bread and butter...you have a highly reviewed new PC game that a lot of people are playing...you have a mild piece of humor which, if you tilt your head sideways and think about it really hard...it might be offensive, if you really try, and then you have an audience.

So the troll can just say whatever, and immediately get a huge feedback loop because of all the people currently investing time in the game.

And its not the troll or the people that start the troll trending that have to bear the weight of the damage to a potential intellectual property, its Obsidian, who then either has to kowtow to this crazy asshat thats turned up one hit tweet out of nine million other laughable duds, or they have to waste time acknowledging the persons "concerns".

You should be able to sue people for shit they say on Twitter.

 

[MetalShadowChaos]

Ok, sorry to disappoint people but that isn't a trans joke. That's a cross-dressing joke. 'Turned out a man', I.E. 'turned out to be a man', that's a man dressing up as a woman to seduce a man, which is deceiving someone for sex, which is not ok.

Yes, if it WAS transphobic, and indeed if it turns out to be INTENDED as transphobic by the backer, then fuck it with a barbed rake. But, and this is a big BUT, it has nothing to do with anything transgender based on what is seen. So calm down. Ask the backer who posted about it and until then, calm the fuck down.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

If they remove it now, that's a violation of their kick starter agreement.

Does that mean such a move would be illegal? Is kick starter a contract?

Also, I find it ironic people who disagree post this tweet in forums which help make some random offended person famous so more offended people can join in, allowing this guy to become ever more powahful.

 

[Skatologist]

Oh this is fun. Turns out the twitter user who initially discovered this and kickstarted this controversy is an outright misandrist who says that men should be holocausted for... being men?

Spoiler

I dunno about you, but these comments seem a lot more inflammatory than a short poem that may or may not have been about someone transsexual.

Oh the misandry card. Haven't seen that in a while.

Seriously, ironically saying something like that is misandry? Quit propagandizing here, keep it in KiA, 8chan, or the megathread. Besides, I've see much more leveled at this person in the last hour in earnest than she's probably said ironically in her life. She didn't even "start" this, followers of her went to Obsidian with her tweet to "start" this, she just passively agreed and got dogpiled with mounds of shit.

And you're offended? So what. I don't care if you're offended and neither should obsidian. Perhaps you just WANT to be offended.

Here's the thing, no one wants to be offended by anything, no more than they want to be afraid of something or wants to find something attractive.

And Mars also never said she was offended to any large extent. Also, why shouldn't Obsidian care about any potential customers not liking content in their game? Aren't you now the one dictating what they should or should not think?

And a game dev also said they're looking it over on whether or not the want this in. And the backer, as far as I know, isn't angry right now. What if they don't even care if the joke was pulled? What you going to then Ziggy? Are you going to complain about those poor artists who actually didn't give half a fuck about an easter egg being taken out?

No, I'm pretty sure that cisplaining about trans stuff is wrong because its, you know, cisplaining.

Cisplaining is an actual word now? Lol. Yeah, I'm cis. I'm male. I'm heterosexual. Guess what, I'm white too. Does that offend you to the point I'm not entitled to an opinion now?

IDK. Have you now ever supported an argument that basically was "since these people aren't gamers/haven't played this game, their opinion on x game is irrelevant"? Seems like pretty similar logic. Are they not entitled to an opinion because they are "unaffected" by something?