Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[Silence]

Since Jim Sterling posted this:

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling 23 Min
So Tim Schafer makes a joke with a sock and it's an outrage, but a joke about a subject that's gotten trans people murdered is just lols.

on Twitter, I will now try to find out how many people got killed because of this joke. Or something similar.

Someone has sources?

(Btw: He retweeted it, and he has a huge audience, so he is partly responsible for the answer this tweet got. Which makes me kind of confused - he should really know what most people think of that.)

 

[Pinky's Brain]

You do know what a legal contract is, right?

If you think you know better than me that's fine, we're just retards arguing on the internet (oh noes, I'm being ableist) so if that was all your odds are pretty good ... but the text I quoted is directly from the Kickstarter Terms of Use.

Kickstarter provides a funding platform for creative projects. When a creator posts a project on Kickstarter, they're inviting other people to form a contract with them. Anyone who backs a project is accepting the creator's offer, and forming that contract.

I know Kickstarter's legal department agrees with me ... so I'm pretty sure I won this race.

 

[Redryhno]

Wait, people are actually offended by this? The joke is just as much(if not more) on the guy going around nailing everything that moves as it is on the guy he slept with. If you're going to be offended by it, then I reserve the right to be offended by everyone wanting it removed as it is slut-shaming and wanting his magnificent bedroom skills hidden from the world, and as we all know, that is the most egregious of actions in a civilized world! I mean, it's not like we're all prudes here are we?

And guess what? They could've just been really drunk and mistaken one another, it could easily have literally nothing to do with trans issues. There's nothing to suggest it's transphobic beyond somebody looking for a reason to get upset over it. I mean, the guy went and killed himself, he didn't kill the one he slept with after all, wouldn't transphobia involve the guy killing the person he slept with and then ripping off skirts to make sure for the rest of his paranoid life or something?

Also, cisplaining? Take your transplaination wannabe....I've run out of equally as silly words to use here. Just call it what it is you really want to say, someone that doesn't agree with you that you want to attack on the basis of them presumably being born different from you and not their argument or method of getting the idea across.

Oh wait...that sounds like something I've heard around here before, but I can't quite remember the word used...anyone wanna help me out?

 

[rcs619]

The name of the thread is misleading. Obsidian were not accused of transmysoginy (I'm pretty sure transphobia is the word we are looking for) but of not preventing it. Not the same thing. Also, a tweet somebody sent is not a big deal, I think. I don't know who this is, but one person being upset by a poem in a game doesn't strike me as something relevant to gaming in general.

About the complaint. The joke assumes to be speaking of a heterosexual cisgendered male, yes. I didn't think it was about transgenders though but rather about a person really drunk who thought he was with a woman but turned out to be with a man. That might make it homophobic but even that isn't explicit. The charactar described was ashamed but it isn't stated clearly of what. It's crude and the author could probably have expected somebody somewhere to respond like this, but to interpret it as transphobic is to interpret beyond what is literally said.

Now I don't know much about the game, but it seems to be some sort of fantasy medieval sorta deal. So we're talking about a relatively light-hearted bit of verse, set in a fantasy medieval world. ...Made up worlds and cultures aren't going to necessarily have the same sorts of values as ours, and a company or author having people in-setting express those sorts of views doesn't automatically mean that they share of support them. What, are we going to start getting pissed off at George R. R. Martin for all of the terrible things some of his characters say about dwarves too while we're at it?

This is just dumb. Can we save the outrage for actual issues and actual cases of discrimination or intolerance please?

 

[Uratoh]

So what does it mean if I'm trans and find that poem hillarious?

 

[kael013]

This is just complete nonsense. The current sociopolitical censorship rush reminds me alot of Soviet Russia where the people had to toe the party line or be labeled enemies.

So in that line of thinking, I've edited the poem. Maybe the extremists will like it better:

Here lies Firedorn, our levelest head
He once was alive, but now he's dead
He wrote something the mob didn't find right
and, hounded, he disappeared one night

 

[Pr0]

Apparently someone didn't read the possible side effects label on their chosen HRT dosage.

"label on their chosen HRT dosage"

Please continute tell me how much you know about trans issues when you clearly don't even know what HRT is.

Please continue to make a spectacle of yourself for the purposes of self exposure. Cause I frankly don't care what you think.

Its a medical fact that hormone therapy can have serious effects on neurological states and moods. I don't much care if I'm using the wrong acronym nor am I going to get in a fight with you about it. Call it happy pills if you want, hormone therapy affects peoples moods and it has an even broader affect on people that weren't emotionally stable in the first place...which to be fair, is a lot of people...not just transgender people.

 

[bluepotatosack]

Since Jim Sterling posted this:

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling 23 Min
So Tim Schafer makes a joke with a sock and it's an outrage, but a joke about a subject that's gotten trans people murdered is just lols.

on Twitter, I will now try to find out how many people got killed because of this joke. Or something similar.

Someone has sources?

(Btw: He retweeted it, and he has a huge audience, so he is partly responsible for the answer this tweet got. Which makes me kind of confused - he should really know what most people think of that.)

I'm quite sure he's talking about instances where men have gone to bed with transwomen and then killed them when they realized the woman wasn't biologically female.

 

[J Tyran]

Wow, so I made an account just to respond to this lol.

I have seen a lot of arguments online stating that this joke is okay because it's within a fiction and thus does not necessarily represent the views of the developers. That's all well and good, but I want to take this a step further.

Instead of taking the joke literally, let's examine sentiment behind the joke. The main idea of the joke is that the man sleeps with someone he thought was a woman, turned out to be a man, and then is upset at this.

In what universe is this transphobic?

Honestly, in this scenario, what would you prefer the man have done? Just decided to be happy that he was deceived into sleeping with a man? I mean, what would YOU have done if this happened to you?

A straight person, not wanting to sleep with someone of the same sex is not transphobic, homophobic, or any kind of phobic, it's called "being straight." I mean, I'm not going to call a gay guy "heterophobic" because he doesn't want to sleep with a woman.

I'm sorry, but someone's sexual preference does not make them X-phobic.

The triviality of things that people take offense at nowadays never ceases to amaze me.

The very act of someone still classifying a trans person as their original physical gender is enough to be labeled as transphobic by some SJWs, even if its only to the extent of sexuality and sexual acts without any prejudice, bigotry or discrimination.

Which as someone who doesn't have objection to having a relationship with a transexual person I think is damn wrong, respect and rights go both ways (no pun intended) and if someone is uncomfortable with the idea and expresses it then it should be respected.

 

[StreamerDarkly]

So what does it mean if I'm trans and find that poem hillarious?

That you're suffering from a bout of internalized transmisogyny? I could be wrong, the list of pronouns is expanding so quickly it's hard to keep up.

TotalBiscuit gives a rational opinion on this fiasco:
https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/pillars-of-transphobia
And is promptly mobbed on Twitter by SJWs telling him to #ShutTheFuckUpTotalBiscuit.

 

[Vivi22]

I never got why showing racism, sexism, etc in fantasy worlds without them being a Bioshock Infinite type where racists=suicidal nazis you have to genocide is terrible? The world Pillars of Eternity is set in doesn't have to obey our standards because it's not our world. Is Game of Thrones a disgusting show because gays are murdered in Westeros and women are treated horribly? No.

Difference is that stuff like that in Bioshock Infinite and Game of Thrones actually serve a purpose within the story and help convey what sort of world it is. This poem does not do that. It is completely detached from the game world and seems to add nothing to it, existing instead as nothing but an insensitive joke someone decided to slip in there. Now I would say that it could be a lot worse, but when actual transgendered people get murdered in today's world just for being transgendered, it's still not exactly promoting acceptance or entirely appropriate. Legitimately tie it into the games world building and I wouldn't have an issue with it, but there's no argument for artistic integrity I can see here. It serves no valid purpose and probably should be changed or removed.

 

[Silence]

Since Jim Sterling posted this:

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling 23 Min
So Tim Schafer makes a joke with a sock and it's an outrage, but a joke about a subject that's gotten trans people murdered is just lols.

on Twitter, I will now try to find out how many people got killed because of this joke. Or something similar.

Someone has sources?

(Btw: He retweeted it, and he has a huge audience, so he is partly responsible for the answer this tweet got. Which makes me kind of confused - he should really know what most people think of that.)

I'm quite sure he's talking about instances where men have gone to bed with transwomen and then killed them when they realized the woman wasn't biologically female.

So what I will say will sound extremely dumb. But I think it is important:

Are there sources on this type of murder? It sounds like something that could be a great urban legend without an instance of it really happening.
Because it assumes that these Transgenders are so careless, that they would try to sleep with someone before disclosing the fact. The story is kind of transphobic.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

I never got why showing racism, sexism, etc in fantasy worlds without them being a Bioshock Infinite type where racists=suicidal nazis you have to genocide is terrible? The world Pillars of Eternity is set in doesn't have to obey our standards because it's not our world. Is Game of Thrones a disgusting show because gays are murdered in Westeros and women are treated horribly? No.

Difference is that stuff like that in Bioshock Infinite and Game of Thrones actually serve a purpose within the story and help convey what sort of world it is. This poem does not do that. It is completely detached from the game world and seems to add nothing to it, existing instead as nothing but an insensitive joke someone decided to slip in there. Now I would say that it could be a lot worse, but when actual transgendered people get murdered in today's world just for being transgendered, it's still not exactly promoting acceptance or entirely appropriate. Legitimately tie it into the games world building and I wouldn't have an issue with it, but there's no argument for artistic integrity I can see here. It serves no valid purpose and probably should be changed or removed.

Who are you to say that it doesn't add anything to the world? The world of PoE isn't 2015 where bigots are ostracized (or just anyone who isn't offended at everything, in the case of TotalBiscuit), it's a fantasy-medival society that would be rife with bigotry of all kinds. Go listen to TB's response, a guy who's definitely played the game inside out, and he mentions that there is explicit homophobia and the murder of innocent men, women and children en mass. It's not like this joke has been placed as an easter egg in Mario.

And I know that transgenders get murdered because of who they are, and that's atrocious. But a joke that doesn't even imply transgenderism explicitly in a small corner of a massive 100-hour RPG with novels of flavor text isn't going to affect that in any way. In fact, if it weren't for the offended parties bringing it to the attention of everyone nobody would have ever cared and to be frank all this will actually do in the end is just reaffirm the beliefs of many that transgenders, feminists, etc are thin-skinned and want to censor whatever they don't like.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

It serves no valid purpose and probably should be changed or removed.

It served the purpose of getting extra money out of the backers ... they got the money, the backers got their epitaphs.

The only legal way to change or remove it at this point is to get the backer to amend their contract ... the producers will probably tell Josh to just let it blow over, but if Josh makes enough of a fuss for them to actually try to get it removed they'll probably try to bully the backer into it. If he's smart he'll tell them to f*** themselves unless they want to make him a good offer, I'd try to hold out for a hundred or so steam keys or a thousand bucks.

 

[Redryhno]

So what does it mean if I'm trans and find that poem hillarious?

It means you've got a sense of humor! You are a perfectly average person!(I mean that sincerely, you are a perfect example of unexceptional behavior, you are the very model of the standard standard, a midsize typically normal individual who exceeds in absolutely nothing!) Or that you've internalized your trans....something -ibia-ogyny-hodgedy-podgedy...I have very little idea of the words being used here honestly.

If you cannot tell people without the ability to giggle like a school[s/]girl[/s]child(Was thumped mightily over the head for that one by the roaming feminists, they even allowed their male members do all the heavy lifting, it was glorious!) or are so out of touch with their emotional core(that little piece of you you know is probably on the highway somewhere) that do not realize it, everything preceding this was mostly another big joke.

Since Jim Sterling posted this:

Jim Sterling ‏@JimSterling 23 Min
So Tim Schafer makes a joke with a sock and it's an outrage, but a joke about a subject that's gotten trans people murdered is just lols.

on Twitter, I will now try to find out how many people got killed because of this joke. Or something similar.

Someone has sources?

(Btw: He retweeted it, and he has a huge audience, so he is partly responsible for the answer this tweet got. Which makes me kind of confused - he should really know what most people think of that.)

I'm quite sure he's talking about instances where men have gone to bed with transwomen and then killed them when they realized the woman wasn't biologically female.

Well yeah...but how does it makes this gravestone transphobic? I mean, nine out of ten people say gangbangs are the best things in the world(some even say ten out of ten!), it's a funny joke about gravestone epitaphs, people, and their preconceptions. If you're not allowed to make fun of something because it might reference something bad in the real world, our comedy would still be stuck in the knock,knock day and age...except we wouldn't, because home invasions have started with door knocking before...

 

[kael013]

It is completely detached from the game world and seems to add nothing to it, existing instead as nothing but an insensitive joke someone decided to slip in there... Legitimately tie it into the games world building and I wouldn't have an issue with it, but there's no argument for artistic integrity I can see here. It serves no valid purpose and probably should be changed or removed.

The game's character creation screen pretty much spells out that men and women are NOT equal in the game world: "In the Aedyr Empire, Vailian Republics, and the Dyrwood, women occupy many domestic, educational, and organizational roles. They are the primary hunters, soldiers, and leaders of the tribes in Naasitaq." Basically, in the game world's dominant cultures women are expected to "stay in the kitchen" (Naasitaq is one island). There are comments in the game about lesbians not being welcome (though I haven't seen that yet. Maybe I need to talk to villagers more).

In short, the world is sexist and homophobic. HOW is a rhyme that adds transphobia to the list detached from the world?

[quote/]Now I would say that it could be a lot worse, but when actual transgendered people get murdered in today's world just for being transgendered, it's still not exactly promoting acceptance or entirely appropriate.[/quote]

By tying this to real-world trans issues you're implying that games influence our perceptions. You know where that road ends? "Games promote violence! Games promote misogyny!"

 

[EHKOS]

This was a joke before the medical profession had the knowledge to perform sex changes.
But sure, blow this out of proportion, of course Sir'am, Obsidian deserves so much more than, sensitive people bangin' on doors, like when Techland had it's code leaked and called women whores. It's absurd, you had me laughin' at, ev-ery word, I'm never perturbed, Obsidian, will not be disturbed. If those turds want to chase it-take it- up with Vivendi, and the courts'll kick your ass out faster than you can say 'free speech'.

 

[Cptn_Ab]

it doesn't bother me if people are transgender, gay, bi or intersex but its just good manners to tell someone that you where once a guy/girl before the pants hit the floor. i don't know about you lot but if i take a girl home i expect that girl to have two x chromosomes.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Sure it is. Its an offensive sentiment held unjustly towards a group of people. So is the sentiment that transgender women are really just men in extreme drag trying to trick straight men into having sex with them. Its perfecly analogous.

I just want to quote this to reiterate why some people are considering this offensive.

This is a sentiment you see all of the time, sometimes to the extent that people will attack and beat the person who "duped" them. Usually it's just used to ridicule them or demonize them for daring to sleep with you without telling them you were really a man. Because god forbid a transexual individual want a sexual encounter as their preferred gender.

It's not the most offensive poem (They were classy enough for him to kill himself instead of her), but I'd say it's pretty tasteless. In a world where this belief wasn't so god damn pervasive maybe I'd assume that the joke was on the man for being intolerant and insecure, but it really comes across as "Ha! You got tricked into sleeping with a man, now isn't that embarrassing?"

it doesn't bother me if people are transgender, gay, bi or intersex but its just good manners to tell someone that you where once a guy/girl before the pants hit the floor. i don't know about you lot but if i take a girl home i expect that girl to have two x chromosomes.

What if you have a really small dick? Or you have an unsightly gut that doesn't show under your shirt? Or maybe an unattractive medical condition, like burns?

Should you be obligated to tell your potential partners beforehand of all the qualities they might find undesirable as a similar courtesy?

 

[Redryhno]

Because it assumes that these Transgenders are so careless, that they would try to sleep with someone before disclosing the fact. The story is kind of transphobic.

So you're blaming transgender for being murdered, rather than the person who kills them because they're transgender?

Pretty sure he's blaming the person that sleeps with random individuals without telling them anything and not knowing how they might react to it. I'd say the same thing to a straight guy sleeping with a straight girl and getting some kind of debilitating STD or the married person sleeping with the unmarried and not telling them they have a spouse, who also is a vengeful and jealous little brat.