Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[Bocaj2000]

1) This actually anti-transphobic and plays on absurdist humor.
2) A prejudiced character does not equal a prejudiced author.
3) An oppressive atmosphere needs oppression.
3a) A dark atmosphere needs darkness.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I'm starting to approach things like this with a sort of... weary resignation. In much the same way that I had to just get used to the far right peddling their particular brand of insanity, I'm having to accept that this group of censorious, puritanical fucks just so happens to be on my side of the political spectrum.

But, hey, the first responses are kind of reasonable.

OT: Mildly offensive joke that a backer wanted included in the game. I would say that Obsidian probably should've said no to it, but its their game, their choice if they want to edit it or not. I'll be getting the game eventually regardless because Obsidian is one of my favourite developers.

So I guess there's nothing for it, really. What's the use in getting annoyed or upset by it. I mean, it's not like this petulant bitching is actually having an affect on the indu-

https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/582200461127634945

...I don't want to live on this planet anymore.

capcha: roll over. indeed, capcha.

-stry... Ugh!

Ok, fine, at least it can't get any more ridicu-

"Cisplaining"

Ya know what? Nevermind.

The implication that trans women are gay men trying to trick straight men into having sex with them? Yes, it has. In fact, earlier this year, its what caused a trans woman to be set on fire.

1. I didn't get that implication from the poem. At all. It sucks if you did. It's almost as if these things are subjective.

2. #NotAllTrans, but an individual? Why the fuck not? Some people are assholes. You know this.

3. Violence being perpetuated against individuals in the past or present is irrelevant to the joke/poem, as the 'trans' (which they're likely not, given the setting) person was not killed or otherwise harmed. Further, the joke/poem's content does not incite violence/aggression against the 'trans' individual in any way, shape, or form.


And... fuck me, man. It's the SAME people (myself included) in here, on either side, spouting the same shit.

How many people are actually using these forums? It sincerely seems like there's maybe 100 or so, tops, who fill up all these pages with circular 'debate.'

Okay, this is something I don't get. I can understand if you simply don't find a penis attractive when you're attracted to women, or you don't find someone attractive while or after they've transitioned using hormone therapy, but why does it matter to so many people what gender someone was born?

Ya know...it really doesn't matter whether or not you understand it. If someone is just uncomfortable sleeping with a transexual, that's their prerogative.

Also,

Once again though, STD's are something that are actually harmful, and I don't think that's a fair comparison.

Psychological trauma isn't harmful? For some people its obviously traumatic and a violation thats almost akin to being raped (from their perspective).

This.

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

Based on what I know about Obsidian and Josh Sawyer this may well have been an oversight and something they otherwise wouldn't have included. Of course the possibility that the developers actually want to remove something and aren't being forced or otherwise coerced into doing it is probably something a lot of people won't even think of.

I haven't played Pillars yet but I'm looking forward to seeing how gender is seen by different cultures in the setting, especially a setting where reincarnation is something that happens and everyone knows it. Everyone in the world almost certainly has/will be a different sex than they are now.

 

[ClockworkAngel]

In terms of things that are really harming the trans community, this poem is pretty benign. Nobody is going to remember this poem when the dust settles, so it strikes me as funny that people are getting so worked up over it, and in a lot of places are veering way off-subject.

This poem reminds me of a lot of television I remember, when cross-dressers and trans people were the low-hanging fruit of comedy. "Hurr durr it turns out she was a man"-type stuff. Maybe it's still like that, I don't know. I don't watch a lot of new shows these days. It's not entirely harmless in that it (possibly) quietly reinforces the idea that transvestites and trans people are ripe for comedy and things to be laughed at, but not devastating enough to make a big stink over. The poem is entirely forgettable.

 

[Shinkicker444]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The Pillar's world is a dark place, or did you miss all the baby and mother murdering?

 

[Redryhno]

snip

Ok...so you don't have an answer and only made the last response as a catch-22? People aren't allowed to be uncomfortable with someone that spent a substantial part of their life as one gender wishing to be another and the rest as the gender they want wanting to bone them and having second thoughts about the boning on account of personal reasons? You said to let them down easy, and I asked how with something that was supposed to be taken as a funny and you then go and say that it shouldn't matter? Which is it buddy?

As for your question, I don't know exactly. I think there's a number of men in the world that are handsome, doesn't mean I want to bump uglies with them, and I certainly don't want to go to bed with a woman to find out she's got the same floppy bit of nerves and skin that I do. And even without floppy appendage, being told is going to have an effect because one of the things that's always gonna be in the back of your mind is that you're technically having sex with a guy at some point(forget the physical characteristics, and even rarer conditions you went to the trouble of making a big deal out of), you're sleeping with somebody that has a genetic makeup even more similar to you than normal, and I just find the idea unsettling, for the same reason I find sex with a gay guy unsettling, I'm not going to complain about them liking it, but I don't find the idea appealing in the slightest.

People can be fine with it and enjoy it, that's fine, but I don't really care for it. Especially if I wasn't told beforehand.

 

[dragonswarrior]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The Pillar's world is a dark place, or did you miss all the baby and mother murdering?

This isn't there to set up a dark atmosphere. This is there as a joke. It's there to make people laugh, and it ties into a culture and a set of conceptions that leads to a depressingly high number of violent murders and suicides every year.

 

[ZiggyE]

How many people are actually using these forums? It sincerely seems like there's maybe 100 or so, tops, who fill up all these pages with circular 'debate.'

I try to avoid these threads because very few people are ever willing to discuss these issues in good faith. Especially when I've got stuff I need to do. Like right now.

 

[Pr0]

Only if you assume, by reading the poem, that the individual that Firedorn bedded was a transsexual at all.

Right, the reasonable thing is to go out of our way with apologetics to find an alternative explanation for the sole sake of proclaiming that the joke is absolutely not offensive. And, if we need to assume extra details about the story like the character being a drunkard, so be it because not doing so would mean that the joke might be offensive and the PC police might have a point and we can't have that.

When you have one side that takes the joke as is to reach their conclusion, and another that has to (without any actual reasoning beyond the desire for an alternative) assume extra information to reach theirs, why would you ever go with the latter choice? Granted, in this explanation the assumption is that there's no blatant political motivation, which pretty much explains why someone would go with the latter option.

The assumption of trans-misogyny is reached by assuming extra information. The original conclusion was reached by assuming the other individual in the poem is actually transgendered...there is nothing stating that they were.

 

[Shinkicker444]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The Pillar's world is a dark place, or did you miss all the baby and mother murdering?

This isn't there to set up a dark atmosphere. This is there as a joke. It's there to make people laugh, and it ties into a culture and a set of conceptions that leads to a depressingly high number of violent murders and suicides every year.

You are away of this thing called Dark Humor, yes?

 

[Skatologist]

So you're on our side then? Great. Why are you arguing?

I ain't on your side chief, I'm doing the right thing and supporting Obsidian regardless of what they do. They keep it in? Fine. They remove it? Fine. But I'm getting the impression if they do the prior, some people will call them cowards or say they were bullied into doing it. I'm having none of that. And before you go "but what about if they keep it in and get called bigots by your friends", I won't care. I will not care. They're not going to keep it in out of spite for anybody I'm guessing, so I WON'T CARE. Friends can not support Obsidian or say it's a bad decision or whatever else

And I'm arguing because I hate overreaction to "overreaction" and offense at offense(even if you don't call it that, it is what it is where I'm sitting), the view any change of heart or mind from an outside perspective equals censorship, along with the abandonment of nuance opponents have on a subject.

Oh no, one tweet, out of at leat 30,000 active participants, what a nightmare.

I guess a prominent member of a group in favor of EIGJ making a joke that looked like a very specific threat is irrelevant to you in comparison to someone who makes vague "threats".

Meanwhile the progressives have sent people knives, had people kicked out of their homes, had people fired, actually SENT PEOPLE NEEDLES (you know, instead of just joking about it) all for having the nerve to demand integrity in games journalism.

Cite each and every one of those examples outside of using reddit, chan, or imgur link before you get back to me. I dare you.

But once again, none of this is relevant at all to obsidian's poem, so why bring it up? Are you not interested in discussing the issue in good faith? Of course, progressives rarely are, that's why terms like "cisplain" exist in the first place. To silence dissent.

You brought up the irrelevant stuff first and I'm not the imply all the arguments/viewpoints of my opponent to put me in bad faith, you are.

 

[dragonswarrior]

The assumption of trans-misogyny is reached by assuming extra information. The original conclusion was reached by assuming the other individual in the poem is actually transgendered...there is nothing stating that they were.

Whether it's specifically stated or not, it ties into the culture that trans women are out to "Trick our menz!" into having sex with them. No, it's not specifically stated. But a lot of people are clearly taking it that way, so to try and invalidate their feelings and conceptions of the poem by just being like "GUYS! It's not specific though!" Well... That doesn't really work. And it's also kinda rude.

 

[J Tyran]

That being said, I stand by my belief that someone who can't accept a transsexual person as anything beyond the physical characteristics they were born with has something to work out. The evidence points strongly towards transsexuals having brains that work like their preferred gender, and if you find someone attractive and can't get past the idea of "Eww, they were a man", then that's an issue. You might not be able to change it, but I don't consider it something you should be comfortable with thinking.

Once again... general you

You're making the same mistake that they are, its outside of your own personal experience about why they feel that way so you accuse them of "having something to work out" without really trying to both understanding why and respecting it. I always try to be careful when talking about things like this but it isn't a very common thing, for most of history it hasn't even been recognised or acknowledged for the most part.

Medical science has only recently started to unravel the reasons and ways of helping transgendered people, for lots of people the idea of someone being born as the wrong gender is unthinkable and (I apologise to anyone offended by this word as its not how I think) its even alien to a few.

They cannot conceive of it, so they invent reasons based on their own experience. Most are rubbish, some are simply taken from what others have said. Even for many progressive and tolerant people its akin to explaining to a blind man what the colour green is, or a deaf person reading about music but we either try to understand or we understand on an intellectual (certainly not claiming to be intellectual though) level about whats going on. Even though I don't feel the same way I can intellectually understand why people might feel like that and how people are often not responsible for feelings they have, I also try to respect it as well until it causes them to start mistreating others or having no respect themselves.

People cannot be held accountable for what they cannot understand, they are certainly accountable if that ever causes their behaviour to cross the line and are prejudicial, discriminatory, abusive and violent but simply preferring to avoid sexual encounters with a transgendered person is an inherent right. So is not being subjected to the psychological trauma that a deceitful encounter might bring, having sex without full consent is wrong and unless someone is fully convinced of consent they shouldn't carry on.

So you're making the same mistake, the question is are you capable of stepping back and being more understanding to the viewpoints of others?

 

[Thorn14]

Could someone please point out where there is proof its a transwoman the man who jumped off a cliff slept with?

I mean literally the first real member of your party is a long haired feminine looking elf!

 

[Redryhno]

And... fuck me, man. It's the SAME people (myself included) in here, on either side, spouting the same shit.

How many people are actually using these forums? It sincerely seems like there's maybe 100 or so, tops, who fill up all these pages with circular 'debate.'

I'd like to have a day where the normal arguers(myself included of course) in these kinds of things are banned from the topic and all that's left are the rest of the forum community, because it's always the same people with the same talking points, I mean, at the start of this it was interesting, I was seeing names and avatars I hadn't seen before and it was a pretty agreeable thread going on without -plaining and transphobia being thrown around like potatoes.

Then the outrage machine woke up and the ticked-off-at-this-happening-again machine woke up in response.

Welcome to the Hotel Califonia.

Oh lookie here, you're encouraging drug addiction now, aren't you? How nice...

[sub][sub][sub]see, I can do it too...[/sub][/sub][/sub]

 

[dragonswarrior]

This is why we can't have nice things.

The Pillar's world is a dark place, or did you miss all the baby and mother murdering?

This isn't there to set up a dark atmosphere. This is there as a joke. It's there to make people laugh, and it ties into a culture and a set of conceptions that leads to a depressingly high number of violent murders and suicides every year.

You are away of this thing called Dark Humor, yes?

*eye roll* The "Man sleeps with man by accident and then kills himself in shame" is NOT dark humor. Never has been. It's not about the person killing themselves, it's about the fact that he thought he was sleeping with a woman and it turned out he was wrong and then he's horrified.