Obsidian accused of transmisogyny in Pillars of Eternity

[Bob_McMillan]

Wow this has GOT to be the fastest growing thread I have ever seen. 6 pages in 9 hours?

I actually found it hilarious. Who wouldn't?

 

[NerAnima]

I love how I made what is the most equally defensive comment for both sides, that probably summed up this the best...and yet it was skimmed over to pay attention to argumentive comments by both sides going back and forth...as if one side is actually going to eventually "okay, you're right and I agree"...no matter how right or wrong the other side is.

This is the Internet people, where everyone is right that holds a particular stand on something, and the equalizers are ignored because they actually bring statements that end such arguments, while the people arguing are convinced that their opinion is the "end argument".

Oh irony.
($10 says that this will be skimmed over too)

Can I have my $10 now? I could really use it to buy that Surprise Party Amumu skin coming out soon.

In all seriousness, I do think that you're mostly right, you made a decent argument for both, whether it was the best at this point is not for you or I to decide, but it was definitely skimmed over.

It just seems that this has gone from a sensible talk over tea has turned into the battle of Ypres, with both sides deeply entrenched, and trying to moderate may not work at this point. Would have been nice if it was just a simple talk, I would have been genuinely interested in this.

Sadly, that's not the way the internet works.

 

[ZiggyE]

No. What I am saying is that, if you say something that turns out to be offensive, perhaps consider apologizing and respecting the person you (accidentally or not) offended. What I see in this thread is opposite of that really. I see people rallying to mock sensitive SJWs who just wait on the internet all day to see something "offensive" to cry about and to install a fascist censoring dictatorship. A true irony here, people are exaggerating about people who they think exaggerate.

I am proposing an option that perhaps something is truly offensive to some people and we all sometimes say offensive shit without thinking or without even knowing the effect of our words. We can go down the path of "Get over it, sensitive pansy SJW fascist!" or down the path of "Oops, I apologize, I didn't know this might be a problem. I will make an attempt not to do it again." The latter is preferable to me.

If you get offended over nothing then perhaps you deserve to feel offended. Why should I apologise when I've done nothing wrong except say something that someone didn't like. That's their problem, not mine. It's different if you legitimately say something hateful, but if you're saying something that any reasonable person would barely consider an issue that someone somewhere has misinterpreted, then you're not responsible, you shouldn't feel guilty and you sure as hell shouldn't apologise. Which is just what this poem is, since it may not even have been referring to anyone transgender.

 

[ZiggyE]

From Obsidian's own forums. Neatly sums up this whole issue.

Spoiler

 

[Tsun Tzu]

I am proposing an option that perhaps something is truly offensive to some people and we all sometimes say offensive shit without thinking or without even knowing the effect of our words. We can go down the path of "Get over it, sensitive pansy SJW fascist!" or down the path of "Oops, I apologize, I didn't know this might be a problem. I will make an attempt not to do it again." The latter is preferable to me.

Why is it one or the other?

Why can't they simply say, "Oops, I apologize, I didn't know this might be a problem," and have that be the end of it, without changes being made to mollify the complainers?

My being offended by someone or something's actions is not grounds for me to demand they cease said actions, nor does it automatically make their actions wrong/something to be apologized for. I've been offended by plenty of things in my life, but to ask that they be done away with or curtailed because of the slight to my sensibilities is just...dumb.

 

[Clive Howlitzer]

I think people are really stretching for it now.

 

[kael013]

I'm not sure why I just read 5 pages and change of this shit. It's the same people saying the same things as in every other similarly themed thread. I can't really bring myself to care what happens either way, honestly. On the one hand, I don't understand the outrage over a poorly written poem that can only be found by trudging through a pointless easter egg. On the other hand, it's a poorly written poem that can only be found by trudging through a pointless easter egg, so what have we really lost if Obsidian removes it?

Lost? Nothing. Instead we will have gained yet another precedent for game devs to alter products to fit a sociopolitical party line - a line that changes based on who's screaming the loudest at the moment. It opens the door to all sorts of shit.

...You're lucky, ya know? I wish I could muster up the level of "meh" you have. But I'm an aspiring artist and this shit actually is making me seriously reconsider ever making a piece of art. I mean if my artwork offends people and they yell and harass me into changing it - bastardizing and violating it - why should I make it in the first place? I'd rather have it sit in my head and die with me - unchanged, pure.

 

[darkhallwaygames]

In what universe is this transphobic?

This one, the world where we both exist.

So if you are about to have sex with someone and they turn out not to have the genitals you had previously presumed you're just supposed to go "Yup fine by me," and carry on despite them not being attracted to them?

 

[ZiggyE]

Hey, maybe consider that transgender people have a better idea of what being trans is like than somebody who isn't. You know, maybe we're more aware of the prevalance of transphobia than you are, seeing as we're the targets of it, and thus unable to avoid, because these justifications are being used everyday to try to legislate discrimination towards us.

But you're not talking about what it's like to be transgender. You're telling us what straight men think. You're saying that straight men believe transsexual people are going out there trying to trick them into having sex with us?

Well maybe straight men like me have a better idea of what straight men think than transsexuals. Just maybe. I mean, I understand that it's pretty much the highest form of blasphemy for progressives to listen to what straight men have to say, but when it's something that only straight men can know, such as what goes on in our heads, I'm sure there's no better expert.

 

[deathbydeath]

The world would be a better place if people didn't automatically assume their rustled jimmies were worthy of political outrage. I mean, if anything the poem is saying men that look like women are not a big deal because it's making fun of someone who took it too seriously. I wish I could shoot off @icequeenerika's knees so they would stop jerking them everywhere.

In other words - leave the bitching to the professionals, please.

This would make an excellent bumper sticker.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

Well because there's no obligation to do so.

Tell that to Chris Wilson.

 

[Skatologist]

So you understand that physical harm isn't the only type of harm there is? Good. Would it not be safe to assume that many people would feel violated from finding out they slept with someone who used to be the same sex as they are? If this isn't a widespread feeling, then why would there be so many violent reactions to it?

I suggest you watch the video below on why some of these arguments don't hold up


The absolute closest thing to a form of violation for sleeping with a trans person is sex by deception or attempting to have sex with someone under the pretenses that they think they're having sex with someone else entirely. Most popular example can be seen first of the Revenge of the Nerds films and is often considered an actual sexual offense nowadays. But again, as the video demonstrates, say I had a prejudice against a certain grouping of people(a certain race for example) and desired not to have any relations with them, had sex with a woman from said group but realized they were a member of such a group after the fact. Is she still culpable for not telling me she's part of that group before sex or is it still placed more on me for not asking?

 

[Pr0]

Well because there's no obligation to do so.

Yes there is, if you're a woman that truly cares about the person you are becoming intimate with, you have an obligation to be honest.

You're basically saying you don't have a moral imperative to be honest. Everyone has a moral imperative to be honest. Sexuality doesn't even have the authority to abrogate that.

 

[ZiggyE]

The absolute closest thing to a form of violation for sleeping with a trans person is sex by deception or attempting to have sex with someone under the pretenses that they think they're having sex with someone else entirely. Most popular example can be seen first of the Revenge of the Nerds films and is often considered an actual sexual offense nowadays. But again, as the video demonstrates, say I had a prejudice against a certain grouping of people(a certain race for example) and desired not to have any relations with them, had sex with a woman from said group but realized they were a member of such a group after the fact. Is she still culpable for not telling me she's part of that group before sex or is it still placed more on me for not asking?

Actually the concept of "rape via deception" is becoming increasingly popular among progressives. Such laws have been considered in California. Of course all are made with a male perpetrator in mind, since we all know men can't be raped by women.

https://verdict.justia.com/2013/05/01/rape-by-deception-rape-by-impersonation-and-a-new-california-bill

 

[Beliyal]

snip

If you get offended over nothing then perhaps you deserve to feel offended. Why should I apologise when I've done nothing wrong except say something that someone didn't like. That's their problem, not mine. It's different if you legitimately say something hateful, but if you're saying something that any reasonable person would barely consider an issue that someone somewhere has misinterpreted, then you're not responsible, you shouldn't feel guilty and you sure as hell shouldn't apologise. Which is just what this poem is, since it may not even have been referring to anyone transgender.

Well, that's the whole issue here, isn't it? You think it's "nothing". People with different backgrounds and lives disagree. Honestly, this doesn't affect me in the slightest. I'm not offended by this particular thing. Some people are. If those some people wish to pursue this issue and try to tell others that it perhaps isn't "nothing" to them, I'll listen, validate their opinion, wish them good luck in their effort to make things better and maybe try to help by writing stupid posts on the internet late at night.

I simply don't see the logical reason why unaffected people should be angry that someone is offended. Unless the offended people demand immediate legal or violent action against it. In that case, their plea should probably be analysed further. Though I didn't see anyone yet asking for censorship of the game; the developer acted on their own accord by saying they will "look into it". Pretty mild in my opinion.

snip

Why is it one or the other?

Why can't they simply say, "Oops, I apologize, I didn't know this might be a problem," and have that be the end of it, without changes being made to mollify the complainers.

My being offended by someone or something's actions is not grounds for me to demand they cease said actions, nor does it automatically make their actions wrong/something to be apologized for. I've been offended by plenty of things in my life, but to ask that they be done away with or curtailed because of the slight to my sensibilities is just...dumb.

Well, I agree here to an extent. But I also leave the final decision to the developer. If they want to change because they think it's very important, that's their decision. It's their decision also if they don't.

It also depends on the person really. I've been offended many times as well, but I dislike confrontation so I just keep quiet. Some people don't. Either way, if someone directly tells me that what I'm saying is offensive, I will honestly try to make it better, simply because I think it's polite. Especially if it's someone I know well, I probably won't go to those lengths for someone I'll never see again, but I will keep in mind that some words can be offensive. Mistakes can be made though, out of ignorance or forgetfulness. It is very probable that I offended a lot of people without knowing, even after being told. Anyone is free to remind me again though. I definitely don't go around policing my own words every single second of my life, but I've learned that even the tiniest of efforts is enough to make some people more comfortable in your vicinity.

 

[Pinky's Brain]

The guy paid 500$ for among other things getting that epitaph in the game.

It's NOT their decision to make, not any more.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Soooooo, people are offended because fictional characters in a fictional universe aren't suitably progressive enough?

Man, I am getting old.

 

[Skatologist]

Actually the concept of "rape via deception" is becoming increasingly popular among progressives. Such laws have been considered in California. Of course all are made with a male perpetrator in mind, since we all know men can't be raped by women.

https://verdict.justia.com/2013/05/01/rape-by-deception-rape-by-impersonation-and-a-new-california-bill

I guess all those progressives changing laws in which it was impossible for men to be raped by the laws' definition previously in favor of replacing them with laws that easily allow for men to report rape just don't exist. They don't exist.

Oh, and trans people, by a definition of sex by deception, are still by no means raping anyone. I just said if there was ever an argument that could be leveled against trans people not disclosing, it would be this and not having sex with someone with STDs or having sex with someone while asleep or anything else.

Like how you also ignored to respond to that second half of my post and probably didn't see that video too. Obviously the apex of arguing in good faith.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I'm not sure why I just read 5 pages and change of this shit. It's the same people saying the same things as in every other similarly themed thread. I can't really bring myself to care what happens either way, honestly. On the one hand, I don't understand the outrage over a poorly written poem that can only be found by trudging through a pointless easter egg. On the other hand, it's a poorly written poem that can only be found by trudging through a pointless easter egg, so what have we really lost if Obsidian removes it?

Lost? Nothing. Instead we will have gained yet another precedent for game devs to alter products to fit a sociopolitical party line - a line that changes based on who's screaming the loudest at the moment. It opens the door to all sorts of shit.

...You're lucky, ya know? I wish I could muster up the level of "meh" you have. But I'm an aspiring artist and this shit actually is making me seriously reconsider ever making a piece of art. I mean if my artwork offends people and they yell and harass me into changing it - bastardizing and violating it - why should I make it in the first place? I'd rather have it sit in my head and die with me - unchanged, pure.

There is a great deal of difference between an artist changing his work to fit expectations and what's going on here. Since this bit of poetic nonsense wasn't written by Obsidian - or possibly even previewed by anyone in that was part of the creative process - removing it wouldn't compromise their creative vision. Looking at Sawyer's tweet, it likely doesn't even conform to it in the first place and just ended up going beneath the radar. Which is why I can't really get worked up over it.

 

[ZiggyE]

Like how you also ignored to respond to that second half of my post and probably didn't see that video too. Obviously the apex of arguing in good faith.

Believe it or not, I wasn't arguing with you. I was merely contributing to the discussion. I don't believe trans people should be obligated and I think rape by deception is a stupid concept.

I guess all those progressives changing laws in which it was impossible for men to be raped by the laws' definition previously in favor of replacing them with laws that easily allow for men to report rape just don't exist. They don't exist.

Maybe they can do so in my country one day, since they seem awfully silent on the matter.