Official Discussion about the new Forum Rules

[viranimus]

Yes... while I do agree with most of these ideas, the notion of dont be a jerk seems far too subjective and open to too much interpretation.

I admit.. I am an abrasive person at times. But I also try to be a helpful person most of the time. I also have a very dark sense of humor, that easily and often gets misinterpreted as seriousness due to the nature of text written communication. So I can easily see upsetting one mod, that another mod might be rolling in the floor over the same comment. The subjective nature of this dont be a jerk notion seems far too arbitrary to enforce in a fair manner.

I might never write anything that would incur mod wrath, as I have earned the Morpheus badge, and 1/5th of the way to Neo thus far, but this rule certainly makes me more pensive about posting anything, just because of how someone might take what Ive said and find personal offense in it. I certainly get the point of it but unless I am totally misinterpreting the rule, it feels like the color and flavor and the differing perspectives from people who are willing to express more questionable thoughts and opinions will get weeded out in Overly politically correct blanddom. I mean what is the point of writing anything when everyone is going to have to agree with each other, or simply not express why they have differing opinions.

Ehh... just my take on it. Knowing me, Im likely overreacting to it.

 

[Atmos Duality]

It's very easy to provide criticism without being a jerk.

Always separate the subject from whom you're discussing it with.
We aren't here to criticize each other, but actions and ideas.

Other than the fun of being an asshole, what good is there in wasting time to flame an anonymous screen name?

 

[moretimethansense]

Oh since I'm here what about legal things that are used in illegal ways?
eg
If somone is metions ther ps1 laser crapping out is it against the rules to direct them to use an emulator since they are legal as long as they don't come with a BIOS or ROMS ie
I tell them where to get an emulator and how to copy their PS1 BIOS to their pc thus allowing them to play games?

I'm aware that the PS2 and 3 can play PS1 games but hypotheticaly.

Also what about telling someone how to use torrents if they are asking about mods for example and I am directing them to Nehrim at fates edge which is legal and can be downloaded via torrent?

And finally when you say illegal which set of laws are you refering to?

there are for example things that are illegal to do here that are legal in most of America and there are things that are illegal there that are legal here.

Hypotheticaly speaking would I face mod wrath for advocating what is a crime here but not in America?

What about the reverse, would I get in trouble for advocating somthing that is a crime in America but not where I live?

 

[GeorgW]

I've always felt like the rules around here don't really exist, apart from the "Don't be a jerk" one. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that people seem to get what's coming to them, regardless of the rules.
But yeah, I'd like to know about how the mods would react in these 3 examples, as I feel they are too vague:
Example 1: An idiot is being an idiot and someone call them an idiot.
Example 2: Someone says "I have pirated" or someting similar.
Example 3: Someone posts just to make a joke.

Also, I agree with some of the previous posters that the dark blue coloured name defining the mods needs to change.

 

[Kouen]

Does that mean we can rid ourselves of the "NPC" threads? while the rules are a little vauge and mostly common sence there a decent set of rules none the less

 

[teh_gunslinger]

If you're not quite certain if something is gonna sound dickish I think it's a safe bet that it should not be posted.
And people may very well have different interpretations of jerk, but that doesn't matter. It's up to the site/mods to say if something is jerkish, as far as I care at least. If someone lack social ability, as you put it, then he or she should perhaps, in deference to that, take care when wording a post. It's perfectly possible to write something without crossing any lines. Politeness costs nothing.

When in doubt, don't post.

Of course people's individual definition of reasonable behaviour matters, bear in mind this is a worldwide community. Certain behaviours are tolerated in some societies and not in others. Add in that some people on here have genuine social issues like autism or anxiety and it gets increasingly hard to predict what constitutes 'being a jerk'.
First rule of building a system; try and break it. Putting in an ambiguous rule is just asking for confusion, it's not even all that hard to think of a situation in which you will get two different sides subjectively justifying their behaviour calling each other jerks.

See, it may be and indeed is a worldwide community here, but even more than that it's The Escapist community. It doesn't matter, as far as I understand it, if some country has different social norms. If a behaviour falls outside the way of behaviour that this site wants to encourage it's not accepted.

I imagine that my own interpretation of when someone is a jerk is different from the next persons. So I tend to try to err on the side of caution. After all I don't have God given rights to post here. And since I want to keep doing that I try to avoid setting myself up for mod action. Most people ought to be able to do the same.

My first language is not English and so I take even further care to make sure I avoid making statements that might be misconstrued due to me having a shaky grasp on the language. Likewise, if someone is in doubt whether a post might be seen as jerky, he or she ought to consider posting it or not.

And if I may be perfectly frank, I really think that most people know perfectly well when they make a post if it's being jerkish.

And again, when in doubt, don't post. Just like in the real world. Carefully worded and polite discourse goes a long way to actually having a fruitful conversation.

I realise that some people have genuine problems when it comes to interactions and that poses a potential problem. But I figure that the current rule set gives the mods enough leeway to deal with those situations should the present themselves.

Language barriers might be a problem as well, but I guess that's not to be avoided. Again, I'm confident mods have that under consideration as it becomes relevant.

 

[Michael Logan]

A bit diffuse arent they? I mean what constitutes being a jerk?

 

[Lizmichi]

*sighs* Thank you really. I love the new rules and, well, having been flamed in the past for most of the topics I started, it's nice that now there will be less of it. Well I hope.

I've always felt like the rules around here don't really exist, apart from the "Don't be a jerk" one. I'm not complaining, I'm just saying that people seem to get what's coming to them, regardless of the rules.
But yeah, I'd like to know about how the mods would react in these 3 examples, as I feel they are too vague:
Example 1: An idiot is being an idiot and someone call them an idiot.
Example 2: Someone says "I have pirated" or someting similar.
Example 3: Someone posts just to make a joke.

Also, I agree with some of the previous posters that the dark blue coloured name defining the mods needs to change.

As much as I don't want to say it I'd have to agree. I've seen pointless posts and other such things and have seen little steps taken to prevent it.

As for the examples, I'm not speaking for a mod just giving impute.

Example 1: As a mob explained above the person calling the poster an idiot it breaking the rules.
Example 2: That too is breaking the rules. As the below quote states.

Use Our Forums Appropriately
Our forums are a place to talk with like-minded people, not a place to advertise your blog or YouTube channel. Your profile has a place for such things, and that is where it should stay. Similarly, posts including, advocating, or linking to illegal or adult material are a very quick way to end your time as part of The Escapist community.

Example 3: That I'm not sure on. Well 2/3 isn't bad.

 

[Nieroshai]

I've always abided by the golden rule of forums, handed down (according to Penny Arcade) by Jesus Christ Himself:

"Don't be a dick."

Everything else is just details.

Seconded. Unfortunately, even people who actually ascribe to this slip up when they're mad.

 

[teh_gunslinger]

snip

Honestly I would argue international standards of good behaviour but it'll suffice to just observe how many people are asking the same question I am. It would seem that acting like a 'jerk' isn't a universal concept.

True enough. It's entirely possible that I'm dead wrong.

Though I suspect a lot of people just want to know how far they can push it.

 

[Therumancer]

I do think that the rules need to be considerably more specific. The reason being that someone who is a "Jerk" to one person, is not to another. Take any major spokesperson who covers philosophical or societal issues for example. Phil Donahue, Oprah, Bill O' Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and numerous others who have had (or still have) national platforms. There are people out there who vary from having great respect for those individuals, to those who think one or more of them are big mouthed jerks.

Despite accusations of trolling over the years, I frequently engage in debates from a pretty right wing point of view, which puts me in a minority. Like a large percentage of the population I'm not a big supporter of gay (male) rights, I support "The War On Terror", don't hate "Dubya" as much as most of our regulars, and am not shy about expressing some rather hard core opinions about entire groups of people in conflict. A lot of people really *hate* what I have to say a lot of the time (where a few actually thank me for having said some of
the things I do), and probably think I'm a Jerk. The point is that it's too subjective. That is to say nothing of being fairly critical of the gaming industry. By the same token in cases where I'm debating with people holding opposite opinions here (where I happen to be outnumbered) from my perspective they frequently come accross as being jerks especially when they try and de-rail the thread into flame wars.

Rather than putting a vague, and extremely subjective policy into place which will probably be misused at some point (and can risk turning these forums into a sort of 'cult of personality' for moderators like has happened with a lot of other sites when they decided to 'crack down'. I mean look at the drama attempts to clean up sites like "Deviant Art" have caused. The saying "The Road To Hell is Paved With Good Intentions" exists for a reason and truthfully the cure when it's something like this can be worse than the problem.

-

Hopefully Kuliani or some of the Red Guard have red this far, as I am going to present an alternate solution:

Nuke the politics and religion forum, get rid of it entirely. Ban all political discussions. Institute a "no politics" policy on articles and material produced by Escapist contributors.

Don't allow left wing positions, right wing positions, or anything else. Don't permit discussions on racism, prostitution, religion, real world warfare, and similar things. Extend discussions of these subjects to games that include them, for example don't allow a discussion of say "Modern Warfare" to act as a doorway to discuss US military policy or anything. Hammer contributors who decide to make political statements based on games, including comments involving things like "Oh hey, it's great that Just Cause 2 has a non-white protaganist. The weapon drop system is annoying though, which is why they don't call it the White Market I guess" or something like that (intended in jest or not).

The point is that if you don't want anti-gay discussion, then don't allow pro-gay discussion. If you don't want discussion against things like Affirmitive Action, don't allow people to talk about supporting it. If you don't want people to be deeply critical of The Middle East and in support of the war down there (or suggesting accelerating it), don't let people post anti-war opinions. If you don't want people to talk about the illegality of postitution being a good thing, then don't let people talk about legalizing it. These are all things that have come up over the years, and which recur, even when I'm not involved these are the kinds of threads that generate the problems. A lot of the prolems basically being people going "OMG, I can't believe someone is allowed to say something I strongly disagree with! I shouldn't have to ever hear the other side of the issue!".

Being vague and subjective is going to lead to more problems. I am suggesting that even if it lowers forum traffic, if your concerned about content to make consistant policies that apply to everyone. No religion, no politics, no social issues, period, even if attached to a game.

Either that or simply let the forums continue on as they have been, a sort of "wild west" enviroment, with only occasional moderation. Truthfully The Escapist doesn't seem to exactly be short on traffic, a lot of posts get made every single day. Sure, some people complain about the enviroment, but how many of those people are upset in comparison to the overall population?

Such are my thoughts.

 

[Sparrow]

Seems all good to me, I just hope you won't abuse the "Have Respect for the Site and its Content" rule to banning everyone who doesn't like a show.

Just as a heads up by the way, can the rules be a little bit more concise on piracy? I've heard of a few people getting banned for advocating it and admitting to it. As much as I'm all for that, I do think people should atleast know that saying such things is ban-worthy. Or not, as the case may be.

*giant snip*

Also, I suggest giving this guys post a read if anyone has skipped it. He makes some pretty good points, especially in regard to the topics were are and aren't allowed to talk about.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Here is the only thread to be allowed to discuss the new forum rules.

FAQ:
Q: QQ

A: We know.

Q: No really. QQ! I'm crying and complaining! Get it? Two Q's look like crying eyes?!

A: Yes, we get it.

Q: Why do we need new rules?

A: Because the forums had been slowly becoming a less inviting place to be. The new rules are in place to provide tools to the mods to allow them to get rid of the jerks and keep you nice people!

Q: What about the posts made BEFORE the new rules went live?

A: Those posts will be judged under the old Posting Guidelines. You will not be judged under the new rules until you have posted after the new rules went live.

I don't see anything in the rules about repeat threads and necroing threads. I know some threads may crop up over time but is there any restriction on this. Also what is your stance on things like Vs threads.

snip

Should really do a sticky thread with fun facts like 0.3 of the users who view the forum actually post on it and other random facts about forum like say number of post/day or something.

 

[Joe Deadman]

QQ

Damn it I never got a chance to be a jerk and now I can't D:
...
Wait why would I?

I agree that the new rules are a bit vague but at least they're streamlined now.

 

[Jabberwock xeno]

So, uh...

What changed? I didn't see any differences... Anybody mind telling me?

 

[Kross]

A bit diffuse arent they? I mean what constitutes being a jerk?

If you're in a room alone with the recipient and you said whatever the post in question was to them directly as part of a conversation. Would you be surprised if they punched/slapped you in the face for it?

If not, you were probably being a jerk.

The discussion about things being subjective is always a factor. That's what warnings and probation are for. As a warning that you're edging over the line of the rules. If we have a rash of power hungry moderation, then obviously things will have to be reconsidered, but we do try and make sure our moderation team is made up of rational people to the best of our abilities.


As far as "What constitutes low content", if your comment brings something new to a discussion, or maybe rephrases in a useful way an unclear concept, then the length of the comment does not matter. It advances the discussion for all involved.

A useful rule of wrist here would be if your post was removed from the thread, would a third party reading the thread be lacking any information or insight into the discussion? If your post was "me to" or "first" or any number of similar one to two word phrases, then most likely nobody would notice or care if it was gone (gee, this may have been worth reading if 8 people said "lol", but since only 6 said it... I dunno...). While we're generally lax on such "me to" posting in video threads and the like due to causing more ill will then it's worth, anyone who has tried to read such a thread will quickly realize how futile the practice is with all the low content posts. Never mind trying to give a response worth reading in the middle of the flood.

Remember, just because you don't have anything to contribute to a conversation doesn't mean we don't love you. But if you feel a need to post anyway, please reconsider. You'll seem more profound when you do have something to say.

 

[Owlslayer]

I understand why these rules needed to be made.
A lot of people are saying that the forums are going a bit downhill. I myself haven't noticed, though I've been here for over a year and checked the forums more or less once a day.
I guess the point is : don't get agitated. If you get angry and post, chances are you'll get some sort of punishment. Well, unless you're one of the rare people who even when mad will not rage and foul-mouth. But I think everyone has their limit...
So what I'm saying is: people, avoid starting arguments you think will totally piss you off.
Top notch advice giver, I am.

Not really... *sad_face.pdf*

 

[The Grim Ace]

It might just be the fact that I stopped actively posting for awhile, but, I didn't notice any of the mentioned negativity on the Escapist. At the same time, the biggest appeal this site has had for me -- aside from Yahtzee and Movie Bob -- has been the great environment of discussion on the forums so any change that keeps this a place for reasonable discourse is a welcome change in my book.

 

[scrambledeggs]

I'll definitely make sure I take a look. I hope they aren't too harsh, I like the freedom of this forum.

 

[Kuliani]

So.

If I say a show is "stupid, boring pandering horseshit" will I face mod wrath for something like that?

Yes, per rule #3:

Have Respect for the Site and its Content
We put a lot of work into the content on the site, and if you've just shown up to trample on that hard work, we will remove your comments and ask you to leave. Constructive criticism is welcomed; negativity for its own sake is not. Further, discussions instructing or otherwise advocating the circumvention of The Escapist's advertisements, security mechanisms, media protections or similar facilities will not be tolerated.