ok does this work?

[ecoho]

so yeah my friend is letting make a homebrewed race for a pathfinder/D&D game and I wanted to know if this racial is over powered so yeah here it is:

once per day you may chose to change your form from a medium to a large character or vice versa when you do this you swop your dex with your str score (or reversed if going large to small)


im thinking the smaller form stat base would gain the modifier of an elf and the larger would gain the modifiers of a dragonborn.

I know its complicated but is it over powered?

 

[Asita]

The stat switch is making me raise an eyebrow. You could quite easily render that a completely moot point with a sword and board warrior, thus giving them the advantage of a changed size modifier while maintaining roughly even str and dex, whereas a two-handed warrior could suddenly gain the stats of a bow warrior (or vice versa). If you want them to have a size changing skill as a spell-like ability, might I recommend using the actual rules of the spells themselves? Size category shifts to the next highest/lowest, +/-2 to Strength and Dexterity and +/-1 to Attack and AC.

 

[ecoho]

The stat switch is making me raise an eyebrow. You could quite easily render that a completely moot point with a sword and board warrior, thus giving them the advantage of a changed size modifier while maintaining roughly even str and dex, whereas a two-handed warrior could suddenly gain the stats of a bow warrior (or vice versa). If you want them to have a size changing skill as a spell-like ability, might I recommend using the actual rules of the spells themselves? Size category shifts to the next highest/lowest, +/-2 to Strength and Dexterity and +/-1 to Attack and AC.

the stat switch is supposed to make the size switch ether be a help or hindrance because then the size change is actually a hard chose to make, as being small makes you faster and more agile but unable to fight as well and being big means you have lots power but not much maneuverability. Its also good to remember that this racial is once a day so pretty much once or twice a session so once you choose a form you must stay as it regardless if it helps or hinders you making strategizing a must each day.

 

[DoPo]

the stat switch is supposed to make the size switch ether be a help or hindrance because then the size change is actually a hard chose to make, as being small makes you faster and more agile but unable to fight as well

Doesn't work. I can break it right now - build a character that doesn't require strenght - say, bard or a sorcerer, or even a fighter who picks the feats for a finesse build. Go though the dungeon, wreck everything, then switch Dex to Str and pick up everything that's not nailed down and carry it home.

There, broken already. Fighting doesn't require strength...unless you REALLY want it to. And that was just a simple example - I'm sure there are advanced mechanical hacks that would make this even less of a penalty. I think it was the hulking hurler prestige class that just needs to stack strength - "need" is even too strong a word, as he just doesn't need much else. And that class wrecks face, too.

and being big means you have lots power but not much maneuverability.

Which perfectly wrecks this, as well. Moreover, do you really think the swap is going to be that effective? If somebody has 12 and 14 assigned to the two attributes, that's really a +/-1 difference. Even 11 and 15 would be +/-3 and that doesn't need to be significant, either.

Its also good to remember that this racial is once a day so pretty much once or twice a session so once you choose a form you must stay as it regardless if it helps or hinders you making strategizing a must each day.

So-o-o, it's pretty much worthless. How many classes rely on these two stats to the extent that you suggest they do? Is there a class that can go with either one? Because I can't think of any from the top of my head - fighter maybe but even then they'd prefer to get feats to support one or the other stat. If you've got feats that require strength and suddenly you swap to get a whooping 3 more bonus modifier to Dex (something you can literally just get from common magic) how does that help you? You get +3 AC? Probably not, if you wear heavy enough armour. You get +3 Reflex? Yeah, great - that's, like, less than a cloak of resistance. And your reflex save is still crap. Alternatively, if you've got a class that relies on Dex, what benefit do you get from switching to Strength? I can't really see anything unless there is a very specific situation - say, a scrawny ranger is put behind bars, so they switch to the big form and break the bars. Is this a scenario that would come up that often (and no NPC would catch wind of it) that it merits anything? A wizard, for example, can already laugh this situation off using a way more useful strategic decision - swap their familiar for a mini Jaunt ability (I think it's an option in Complete Arcana).

There pretty much nothing nothing to strategise based on that. It's an easily avoidable "penalty" which doesn't even need to be a penalty, unless you pick the race and specific build that has it as one.

 

[FalloutJack]

I must ask if this is any different from a Druid shapeshifting into an animal, thus gaining a number of advantages, especially in the physical. Friend of mine told me of a Druid who'd gotten up in levels and could become a dragon. An ADULT Red Dragon. Armored scales, fire breath, the works. The only reason HE was put into a bind was that the party had a bit of a problem with a Lovecraftian Moon Beast (big hulking semi-humanoid with 15 face-tendrils and love of eviceration). I would say that if the race isn't worse-off than a decent Druid character, it's okay. All depends on what he's surrounded by.

 

[Johnny Impact]

I've seen worse builds, but I think yours needs help.

Large characters have natural reach. Weapons with reach, like longspears, are already abusable despite their limitations. I just played in a campaign with a mobility+spear fighter who could kill half of any group of cannon fodder enemies in a single action. Natural reach is better than that when properly (or improperly) exploited. Allow this race and someone will stack up the feats to break your campaign.

Stat switch won't always be significant. You want something that will always give a small advantage, rather than ranging from zero to gamebreaking. Look at low-level spells. Perhaps casting enlarge person once or twice a day on themselves as a racial ability could work. If you're familiar with Eberron's shifters, something like that might work as well.

 

[DoPo]

I must ask if this is any different from a Druid shapeshifting into an animal, thus gaining a number of advantages, especially in the physical.

Yes, this version is much worse. A druid with shapeshift gets quite a few advantages, including absolutely free extra attacks (for which even a character with the highest BAB increase would need to sweat out several more levels) as well as other stuff that the animal has - might be natural AC or other advantages, like flight/climbing speed and so on. Moreover, with a simple feat (that every druid in existence picks) they can cast magic while shapeshifted and can literally turn into a bear which summons more bears. And then a thunderstorm. And it heals itself. And so on.

I would say that if the race isn't worse-off than a decent Druid character, it's okay.

Eh, it's a somewhat unfair comparison - the druids are one of the most powerful classes in D&D. Moreover, a race should never really be equal to a class[footnote]barring the monster classes from Savage Species which are both a race and a class[/footnote] - it provides rather minor benefits of approximately about a level. Some races that offer more, (for example, adding spell-like abilities) often impose a Level Advantage (LA) which counts towards the total levels the character has, e.g., if the race has +1 LA and the character is a level 3 rogue, they advance as level 4 instead.

Actually, that's how D&D 3.X works, Pathfinder has a different system to do with Racial Points (RP) which are all the advantages and disadvantages tallied up. I'm not well aware of how that works, and a quick look at the SRD doesn't tell me much aside that they exist.

 

[Asita]

The stat switch is making me raise an eyebrow. You could quite easily render that a completely moot point with a sword and board warrior, thus giving them the advantage of a changed size modifier while maintaining roughly even str and dex, whereas a two-handed warrior could suddenly gain the stats of a bow warrior (or vice versa). If you want them to have a size changing skill as a spell-like ability, might I recommend using the actual rules of the spells themselves? Size category shifts to the next highest/lowest, +/-2 to Strength and Dexterity and +/-1 to Attack and AC.

the stat switch is supposed to make the size switch ether be a help or hindrance because then the size change is actually a hard chose to make, as being small makes you faster and more agile but unable to fight as well and being big means you have lots power but not much maneuverability. Its also good to remember that this racial is once a day so pretty much once or twice a session so once you choose a form you must stay as it regardless if it helps or hinders you making strategizing a must each day.

And as I was trying to illustrate, it doesn't do that very well. A hypothetical sword and shield warrior could reasonably be expected to have about 15 Str and 14 Dex at start. For such a character, the stat switch has little to no qualitative effect as the stat bonus will be the same regardless, meaning that the size change is the only real effect on them. Conversely, a Two-handed weapon warrior could reasonably be expected to have 17 Str and 12 Dex at start, meaning that they'll see a much more dramatic effect, switching them to 12 Str and 17 Dex...which coincidentally lines up about with what you could reasonably expect for a Bow warrior. Buy a greataxe and a longbow and you're set. In the case of the S&B it's a free +/- size modifier. In the case of the latter it's greatly improved versatility which allows you to further min-max your character (reach when using the greataxe, AC when using the bow)

Alternatively, many caster classes treat Str as probably their singularly least important stat and Dex as maybe a tertiary if not quaternary one meaning that again the change doesn't have much impact and indeed could in theory be exploitable. I could for instance make a hypothetical Witch with 12 Str and 8 Dex, giving him roughly twice the carrying capacity of the inverse, even if Str doesn't do much else for him. Cue me using the ability to reduce my character's size. Bam. I gain a +1 AC modifier from the size change and otherwise identical stats to the more recommended 8 Str, 12 Dex build.

Now mind you, there's nothing wrong with racial quirks favoring certain classes more than others - heavens know that while Elven Magic is quite nice on a Wizard it does jack on a Ranger - it does raise some red flags when a skill can apparently be abused by classes which ignore an aspect of it (caster classes which generally don't care about Str), negate an aspect of it entirely (builds with roughly equal Str and Dex)[footnote]Which also provides a major "What in the nine hells?" moment in-universe[/footnote], or exploit its intended limiting factor (Two-Handed/Bow warrior or DoPo's finesse warrior). Again, if you want this bit of flavor, just say that the race has the spell-like ability to change their size as if affected by enlarge person or reduce person once per day. It simplifies things and makes the ability more consistent.

 

[ecoho]

the stat switch sounded rather fun and unique in theory but after lessoning to all your feedback ive decided to drop that and make it just the switch between forms once per day.

as to what benefits each would give id say smaller form gets +2 to most dex based checks( acrobatics and such) and the larger would get +2 to str based checks, and having the opposite happen when not in the proper form so -2 for dex based stuff in larger form and -2 to str based stuff when in smaller.

the smaller form is for all intensive purposes an elf like character were as the larger form is more like a cross between a dragonborn and a dam mountain meaning very sturdy and hard to kill but cant move very fast or with any deftness.

the smaller form can use most weapons with training but the larger one can only use 2 handed weapons though they are used as though they were 1 handed weapons.

the armor restrictions are the same as elves in the smaller form but once you become the larger form the armor is then absorbed into the body and the AC is the same as said armor +1 at lvl 1, +2 at lvl 5 ,+3 at lvl 10, ect.

so how does that sound?

 

[DoPo]

so how does that sound?

Sounds more like a class than a race. Maybe a template? I can't recall how exactly those worked but sounds like too much mechanics for a race.

 

[Tatsuki]

Quite frankly the ability to move up a size category itself is an OP trait on its own.

But ignore all the theorycrafting here (I love theory crafting) as there is a FAR more important question, which I am sorry if I overlooked in the answers given so far. Is your friend in the game for the roleplay and fun or will he min/max and abuse any advantage he can, subconscious or not.

Most of the players in my group know I will happily houserule most things in if that's what they want as long as it doesn't inherently break the story and they aren't an asshat about it. If they don't abuse things or try their chances then its only helping somebody enjoy the game which is beneficial, OP or not.

Final thing, check with the other players to see if they are ok playing along somebody with this power even if you doubt it would be an issue.

 

[Schadrach]

the stat switch is supposed to make the size switch ether be a help or hindrance because then the size change is actually a hard chose to make, as being small makes you faster and more agile but unable to fight as well

Doesn't work. I can break it right now - build a character that doesn't require strenght - say, bard or a sorcerer, or even a fighter who picks the feats for a finesse build. Go though the dungeon, wreck everything, then switch Dex to Str and pick up everything that's not nailed down and carry it home.

That's not a big deal. When there's a cheap magic item that does your "broken" thing but better, it's not that broken. Heavyload belt, market price 2000gp. Triples your strength score for purposes of carrying capacity only. If you just want to haul stuff with that strength, you buy one of these.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Once per day? I don't know ... sounds like an LA +1 sort of thing.

 

[DoPo]

the stat switch is supposed to make the size switch ether be a help or hindrance because then the size change is actually a hard chose to make, as being small makes you faster and more agile but unable to fight as well

Doesn't work. I can break it right now - build a character that doesn't require strenght - say, bard or a sorcerer, or even a fighter who picks the feats for a finesse build. Go though the dungeon, wreck everything, then switch Dex to Str and pick up everything that's not nailed down and carry it home.

That's not a big deal. When there's a cheap magic item that does your "broken" thing but better, it's not that broken. Heavyload belt, market price 2000gp. Triples your strength score for purposes of carrying capacity only. If you just want to haul stuff with that strength, you buy one of these.

Not being hindred a bit by the mechanic that's designed to hinder you is not a big deal? You seem to be getting into the mindset of the 3.X designers very well.

 

[Schadrach]

the stat switch is supposed to make the size switch ether be a help or hindrance because then the size change is actually a hard chose to make, as being small makes you faster and more agile but unable to fight as well

Doesn't work. I can break it right now - build a character that doesn't require strenght - say, bard or a sorcerer, or even a fighter who picks the feats for a finesse build. Go though the dungeon, wreck everything, then switch Dex to Str and pick up everything that's not nailed down and carry it home.

That's not a big deal. When there's a cheap magic item that does your "broken" thing but better, it's not that broken. Heavyload belt, market price 2000gp. Triples your strength score for purposes of carrying capacity only. If you just want to haul stuff with that strength, you buy one of these.

Not being hindred a bit by the mechanic that's designed to hinder you is not a big deal? You seem to be getting into the mindset of the 3.X designers very well.

Before Pathfinder's Advanced Race Guide, I usually used as a guideline (where possible) how difficult it was to achieve the same benefit without the racial, and compare it to other racials the same way. Your example of how to break it can be achieved using a 2k gp item, and an average adventurer of about ~5th level will have a way around "I want to carry more loot", whether it's a handy haversack, bag of holding, or a heavyload belt making Mr. Eight-Strength-Sorcerer have an effective strength of 24 for carrying capacity. It's much harder to get an extra feat, for example.

I'd literally put it in the same category as the ability that some races in Dreamscarred Press' psionics books have where they can spend a power point to not need to eat or drink for a day, while also having a feat that gives them a bonus power point. "I don't want to worry about food or drink" is in around the same difficulty of problem.

A more interesting question is (since it's obviously not the typical approach to changing size), does the racial grant additional reach as size large usually has? That means more overall than carry weight limits.

 

[DoPo]

the stat switch is supposed to make the size switch ether be a help or hindrance because then the size change is actually a hard chose to make, as being small makes you faster and more agile but unable to fight as well

Doesn't work. I can break it right now - build a character that doesn't require strenght - say, bard or a sorcerer, or even a fighter who picks the feats for a finesse build. Go though the dungeon, wreck everything, then switch Dex to Str and pick up everything that's not nailed down and carry it home.

That's not a big deal. When there's a cheap magic item that does your "broken" thing but better, it's not that broken. Heavyload belt, market price 2000gp. Triples your strength score for purposes of carrying capacity only. If you just want to haul stuff with that strength, you buy one of these.

Not being hindred a bit by the mechanic that's designed to hinder you is not a big deal? You seem to be getting into the mindset of the 3.X designers very well.

Before Pathfinder's Advanced Race Guide, I usually used as a guideline (where possible) how difficult it was to achieve the same benefit without the racial, and compare it to other racials the same way. Your example of how to break it can be achieved using a 2k gp item, and an average adventurer of about ~5th level will have a way around "I want to carry more loot", whether it's a handy haversack, bag of holding, or a heavyload belt making Mr. Eight-Strength-Sorcerer have an effective strength of 24 for carrying capacity. It's much harder to get an extra feat, for example.

As you saw, OP claimed that it was a "strategic choice" I used the simplest example possible to show that it isn't - when people can literally not be bothered by said choice. The fact that I used the power for carrying purposes is irrelevant - you can sidestep the weight restriction with a myriad of ways, the most mundane of which is to get a donkey. Well, aside from simply handing the loot to another player to carry.

I was struggling too think why a character, who doesn't really need Dex or Str, would ever switch their attributes to get a higher Str (Dex at least gives some defensive boost...so keeping it at 10 at least is enough for casters) and pretty much the only reason would be to be able to pick up a couple more bags of loot. Which you'd notice is not a "strategic choice", thus showing the entire idea behind the mechanic is flawed.

So, no - using the mechanic to just carry stuff is not me breaking the system. The fact that that's the only valid reason to get your Strength at the expense of your Dexterity is it being broken.

 

[Schadrach]

As you saw, OP claimed that it was a "strategic choice" I used the simplest example possible to show that it isn't - when people can literally not be bothered by said choice. The fact that I used the power for carrying purposes is irrelevant - you can sidestep the weight restriction with a myriad of ways, the most mundane of which is to get a donkey. Well, aside from simply handing the loot to another player to carry.

I was struggling too think why a character, who doesn't really need Dex or Str, would ever switch their attributes to get a higher Str (Dex at least gives some defensive boost...so keeping it at 10 at least is enough for casters) and pretty much the only reason would be to be able to pick up a couple more bags of loot. Which you'd notice is not a "strategic choice", thus showing the entire idea behind the mechanic is flawed.

So, no - using the mechanic to just carry stuff is not me breaking the system. The fact that that's the only valid reason to get your Strength at the expense of your Dexterity is it being broken.

Disagree. Depending on the character, there are situations where you might want to trade to-hit/damage for AC, for example (if you think that would never ever be useful, I'd point out there are feats that let you trade to-hit for AC or damage). Or where you might need the boost to either str or dex based skills for one reason or another (there's an example here for literally every str or dex based skill given a check that will be difficult to make).

It's really silly to use an example where the character in question doesn't actually care about either stat -- it'd be like arguing that a +6 Str belt is a terrible item because it's borderline useless to your sorcerer.

 

[DoPo]

It's really silly to use an example where the character in question doesn't actually care about either stat -- it'd be like arguing that a +6 Str belt is a terrible item because it's borderline useless to your sorcerer.

No, it's not silly - it's the point: again, the system is meant to serve as limitation for the character and there are supposed to be strategic choices for simply having it. I proved this wrong.

 

[Chessrook44]

Got an important question for you.

You say that this stat switch comes from the person going from Medium to Large. How does this affect worn or carried gear? Does that greatsword become a longsword in the bigger one's hands? Or does it just become a larger greatsword?

If the former, this becomes broken because the wielder can easily go from dextrous bowman to dual-wielding greatswords. If the latter, he'll explode out of his armor the first time he tries it.

 

[ecoho]

Got an important question for you.

You say that this stat switch comes from the person going from Medium to Large. How does this affect worn or carried gear? Does that greatsword become a longsword in the bigger one's hands? Or does it just become a larger greatsword?

If the former, this becomes broken because the wielder can easily go from dextrous bowman to dual-wielding greatswords. If the latter, he'll explode out of his armor the first time he tries it.

I covered the shape change recently as well as drop the stat swap, also its nice to note I did in fact mean for the larger form to have natural reach at the expense of very low movement speed.