Okay...Hitting in General

[Eamar]

People who condemn using violence to show people their place are usually the same people who wouldn't be any good in a fight in the first place. Obviously people who are physically weak are going to shy away from using violence and aren't going to be in favour of it.

Well, obviously I quite dislike a world where it's okay for people to walk all over me because most of them are stronger than me.
There are societies like this, certainly, but shouldn't that be the kind of thing we as human beings should try to change?

Someone has been causing me quite a bit of trouble lately, calling me and yelling, accusing me of things and making vague threats.

But I didn't have to punch her, I just told her I'm not interested in yelling, I have proof that at least some things she claims are untrue and that I have no interest in arguing over this, but if she likes we can get the law involved.

Worked kinda better than punching her.

No one's saying that violence should always be the go-to response, or even that there are many situations where it would be appropriate, though. Just that it can be acceptable in some specific cases.

I understand advocating non-violent solutions, but not the mentality that says that all violence is inherently wrong, without exception.

 

[TheIceQueen]

This is going to sound really insulting to a certain demographic but I'm going with it. Hopefully I don't offend too many people here but I'm about to offend a bunch of people I'm sure

That's how children solve their problems. Your example of a High School setting perfectly demonstrates this for you don't see that kind of shit in the adult world. In my experience, you see adults coming to fistacuffs for one reason:

Alcohol (which gives them the mind of children)

I'm 28 years old. I can't think of any situation outside of an actual direct threat to myself or someone else where I would be willing to throw down.

So yeah, I stereotyped away here (keep in mind that there are going to be kids who are way smarter and adults who act like children) but I am curious how many of the "I would beat her ass if she slapped me!!!! She wants equal rights so that means I get to punch her teeth out if she hits me!" responses are under the age of 21...

I really wish that we could give karma for posts because I'd give you all the karma in the world, Tippy. Half of it would be for being right, the other half would be for being a fellow Minnesotan.

Anyways, Tippy has the right of things. I can't think of any situation in the adult world where fighting would be even remotely close to how you deal with such a situation and I know because I had to go through a situation like that this year. A bunch of people in my dorm room and I had a back-and-forth between each other of harassing one other in the exact same fashion that you described. And do you know how we settled it? With words and a long talk. And then the next day, everything was fine and we've been amiable ever since.

If you want to say that fighting is a solution to your problems, fair enough, but don't pretend that it's anything more than a childish solution at best. I understand that more solutions might not be available to you in high school and that it might be the best/good solution (which I'm still not sure is anyways) for you then, but that still doesn't make it any less childish. In those situations, it's the last line of defense for a time when -everyone- is acting like spoiled bratty little children.

 

[wulf3n]

. What I would have done was at the point where he called my mom a hoe, he would have been on the floor. No, ifs, ands, or buts, about it.

Now you're suspended, potentially expelled, while he's the innocent victim. Hell depending on how he "lands on the floor" you might even be facing criminal charges, manslaughter or murder.

But most importantly you've shown how easily they can play you like a fiddle. You think you've won because "you put him on the floor" but his intention was never to fight you, it was to get you to do something stupid and you did. He's getting you to actively destroy you're own life, and he doesn't even have to try that hard because you're such an easy mark.

 

[JoJo]

for example if your boss has been acting like a jerk to you recently, socking him one is hardly likely to improve the situation.

Exactly the sort of unreasonable hyperbole I was talking about.

No one hits their employer in the face for "just acting like a jerk".

And obviously there's situations where the better option is to simply talk to someone.
I specifically pointed out that standing up for yourself does not have to result in violence, but if it does, you should be ready to stand your ground.

There's a certain line that needs to be crossed for violence to become excusable, but once the line has been crossed, it's perfectly fine in my eyes and I have no pity for the person who crossed said line.

What situations would someone be crossing your line then? It's clearly more than just self-defence, since you mention using violence to 'show people their place' and when someone's 'emotional integrity' is at stake in your original post, but otherwise you haven't be very clear in saying when you condone violence. 'Emotional integrity' in particular seems very imprecise, if it was something extreme like a rape victim being taunted by her rapist then I could understand violence (though it wouldn't necessarily be right) but otherwise, adults should be thick-skinned enough and have a solid enough self-esteem that they don't get their feelings hurt because someone was mean to them.

 

[rednose1]

My go-to tactic to getting such verbal assaults to stop would be throw a curveball and agree with whatever was said. Worked pretty well for me, figure they stopped because bullies are usually idiots, so if the go-to insults "you're gay, mom's a hoe, etc." don't work, then they quickly run out of ideas. As to the fear of agreeing with them, who cares? What they say isn't true, and you and your buds know it.

Granted, this was back when I was in school, but it did work. Can't have a fight if you take away the other guy's weapons.

 

[Lieju]

No one's saying that violence should always be the go-to response, or even that there are many situations where it would be appropriate, though. Just that it can be acceptable in some specific cases.

I understand advocating non-violent solutions, but not the mentality that says that all violence is inherently wrong, without exception.

Well, the OP was saying that 'calling his mum a hoe = deserving of a punch'. Which would mean he is pretty quick to resort to violence.

I do agree violence can be necessary in some situations, but it's not a good thing, and if the culture advocates it, the culture should be changed.
I've also seen people rationalise to themselves why beating up someone was justified a bit too often to agree on it in cases where it's not clear self-defense. (or in defense of someone else)

 

[Sunrider]

Snip

I don't care at all how "unpopular" the opinion is, you are absolutely right. I was bullied every single day throughout pretty much my entire school life, and the only thing that ever made a difference was when I beat one of them up.
There are pros and cons to that story, and I won't go into that unless someone actually asks, but that particular person never bothered me again at least.

Sorry, moral police people, beating your bully up works. Deal with it.

 

[l33t.heathen]

I think the lack of a consequence is really what is enabling the bullying. Right now I am rereading starship troopers (if you haven't read it, read it. If you've seen the movies and think you know whats going on then read it. If you've read it, read it again) but here is the part that pertains directly to this situation: http://www.magma.ca/~yeti/troopers.html

Basically pain was developed through evolution to teach us that something is wrong. We as a culture don't like pain or inflicting pain when it is the simplest, most straightforward and effective way to discipline someone. I know when I was a kid when I got spanked I was done doing whatever it was I had done to get spanked.

So for my story I was a fat geek in middle/high school who had very little social skills. I got picked on a lot until I flipped out on one person and basically pushed him up against the wall and got right in his face to let him know that I had had it. I moved school a little while after that and at my new school I became the reverse bully. I watched people and knew what to say to hurt them the most and if I got the least reason I responded with an overwhelming verbal beat down. (thank you ender's game) I didn't have a lot of friends. My point on this story is that the psychological wounds and defenses that you get from having to deal with problems in this manner take a lot longer to heal and fix then a black eye. Plus with a black eye people know that you are willing and able to deal with it. Most guys will respect it even if someone ends up getting pummeled at least they fought.

 

[Pyrokinesis]

My answer still remains the same from the last topic:

"... The real issue is that the people who choose to take force over words are in the wrong and lack the composure to deal with either loosing an argument or dealing with ignorant people. Returning such lack of composure only makes you just as bad as them ... Force is force and using it in such a childish and un-composed manner only demeans your character. Regardless of whether the one who used it on you is lacking in composure (in a clearly verbal non-violent situation), you should not stoop to their level."

 

[Akytalusia]

i've only ever lashed back once, and i felt terrible afterward, so i resigned myself to pacifism. it turned out surprisingly effective. there've been plenty of times when i was physically attacked, and it was at these points where the offenders realized how weak they were and gave up. i've never struck back after my resignation, but no-one's ever attacked me twice. funny how it works out when you're built like a fortress..

 

[wulf3n]

Sorry, moral police people, beating your bully up works. Deal with it.

That's like saying "Shooting yourself in the head won't kill you" sure some people may have done it and not died, but that doesn't make the statement true, just that you were lucky and in your case it worked.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Snip

I don't care at all how "unpopular" the opinion is, you are absolutely right. I was bullied every single day throughout pretty much my entire school life, and the only thing that ever made a difference was when I beat one of them up.
There are pros and cons to that story, and I won't go into that unless someone actually asks, but that particular person never bothered me again at least.

Sorry, moral police people, beating your bully up works. Deal with it.

I certainly won't deny that it's a solution and that it works, but that doesn't make it any less childish. That fits the bill of high school, however, where everyone is childish.

But the problem you're not seeing with what the OP has laid out for the thread is that most of the 'moral police' just isn't thinking about 'the bullies in high school' anymore. Most of us are adults and we live adult lives and we do adult things. Most of us have moved on from high school and the point of what we're saying is that retaliation in the form of physicality is just not that great of a solution for an adult life, unless both parties involved are stupid, drunk, or immature adults.

Hey, it's great that it worked out for you in high school and I'm glad that you worked out your bullying problem, but this is a leading hypothetical that doesn't really fit the demographic that's being talked to.

 

[the December King]

It's interesting, but I haven't heard anyone on the losing end of a 'standing up for themselves to bullies' approach yet, just the victors, who obviously, and arguably deservedly, take pride in either their fighting skills, or their courage, or maybe both.

It is easy to say it all changed after you won a fight. But what about when you aren't the physically superior one, and you lost? Did the act of standing up for yourself count at all? Bullies aren't necessarily the bigger/stronger kids, but they often are.

 

[Sunrider]

Sorry, moral police people, beating your bully up works. Deal with it.

That's like saying "Shooting yourself in the head won't kill you" sure some people may have done it and not died, but that doesn't make the statement true, just that you were lucky and in your case it worked.

Certainly has a better track record than waving your finger at them, saying "for shame!", or worse, blaming the victim, which seems to be the norm in this retarded politically correct society.

Snip

I don't care at all how "unpopular" the opinion is, you are absolutely right. I was bullied every single day throughout pretty much my entire school life, and the only thing that ever made a difference was when I beat one of them up.
There are pros and cons to that story, and I won't go into that unless someone actually asks, but that particular person never bothered me again at least.

Sorry, moral police people, beating your bully up works. Deal with it.

I certainly won't deny that it's a solution and that it works, but that doesn't make it any less childish. That fits the bill of high school, however, where everyone is childish.

But the problem you're not seeing with what the OP has laid out for the thread is that most of the 'moral police' just isn't thinking about 'the bullies in high school' anymore. Most of us are adults and we live adult lives and we do adult things. Most of us have moved on from high school and the point of what we're saying is that retaliation in the form of physicality is just not that great of a solution for an adult life, unless both parties involved are stupid, drunk, or immature adults.

Hey, it's great that it worked out for you in high school and I'm glad that you worked out your bullying problem, but this is a leading hypothetical that doesn't really fit the demographic that's being talked to.

I never replied to the OP though, I replied to Eamar. Maybe I should've specified that it deviated slightly from the main focus of the topic, but it was the part that I had a strong opinion on, so I replied to it.
I didn't comment on the adult topic because I had nothing to add.

 

[wulf3n]

Certainly has a better track record than waving your finger at them, saying "for shame!", or worse, blaming the victim, which seems to be the norm in this retarded politically correct society.

Based on what? If you're incredibly lucky and your "bully" is a single loner with no friends, then yes, showing that you're the bigger bully will work, in every other scenario fighting back just indicates to them that you're ready to ramp this shit up. At that point verbal abuse is heaven.

 

[Pyrokinesis]

Bullies aren't necessarily the bigger/stronger kids, but they often are.

For the most part is it safe to say bullies have "power". In highschool that power may be physical strength or a "posse" to work within, but in my military carrier and beyond the spectrum of bullies widen to anyone with any form of power or authority. I saw more than my fair share of "little man" syndromes abusing their rank to suppress anyone they didn't like or agree with regardless of right or wrong. Plenty of managers as well who will threaten their employees who may very well be 100% in the right.

But don't let this statement confuse anyone: Power does not corrupt, but the corrupt tend to seek power.

 

[JoJo]

I don't care at all how "unpopular" the opinion is, you are absolutely right. I was bullied every single day throughout pretty much my entire school life, and the only thing that ever made a difference was when I beat one of them up.
There are pros and cons to that story, and I won't go into that unless someone actually asks, but that particular person never bothered me again at least.

Sorry, moral police people, beating your bully up works. Deal with it.

That's your experience, and I respect that, but not everyone has had the same experience or results. When I was around 10 to 12, I got picked on a lot, probably because I responded in an amusing way due to Aspergers and general immaturity at the time. Near the end of that time I attempted to strangle someone who had been annoying me for months and utterly won that fight, only stopping when a couple of other people broke us up. Did my victory make any difference to the bullying? Not an sausage. Yet about a year later when I grew up a bit more, I stopped reacting to people when they tried to annoy me and lo and behold, the bullying largely melted away.

In my case I found the exact opposite to you, beating up your bully only added more fuel to the fire whilst quietly holding your ground and refusing to take the bait starved them of the amusement they wanted. Not saying that would work every time but equally, beating your bully up doesn't work all the time either. I think it's preferable for a child to learn how to deal with situations non-violently, since when they're an adult that's the way they will have to deal with them unless they want an assault or GBH criminal record.

 

[loc978]

I'll preface this with an affirmation that I'm firmly in the camp of "schoolyard fighting is only the go-to solution for people with a child's level of self-control". I'm sorry, but there's a reason we're not supposed to engage in fisticuffs outside of controlled sporting events involving trained fighters.

I don't lump fighting and violence in the same category. I view fighting as an art even if it is a sloppy street brawl. When people start dying, becoming paralyzed, then it becomes violence in my opinion. Still it's just my opinion.

This is a very dangerous attitude to take. More than a few people have thrown their livlihoods away by killing or maiming someone accidentally in a street fight. Human life can be a lot more fragile than most people are taught... and I say this as someone who has killed, on purpose, using techniques and equipment designed for that purpose. Whether or not I was justified is a philosophical debate... let's just say the law as written by the victors is on my side. Point is, killing is easy... easy enough to accomplish on accident. We're all better off adopting the attitude that physical confrontation should be reserved as a last resort where you consider the other person's life forfeit from the beginning... because in the end, that's all fighting can really accomplish.

 

[TekMoney]

Snip

I don't care at all how "unpopular" the opinion is, you are absolutely right. I was bullied every single day throughout pretty much my entire school life, and the only thing that ever made a difference was when I beat one of them up.
There are pros and cons to that story, and I won't go into that unless someone actually asks, but that particular person never bothered me again at least.

Sorry, moral police people, beating your bully up works. Deal with it.

I'm going to take a guess that the "84" in your username is a reference to the year you were born? If that's true it's probably time to stop talking about how you'd respond to a high school bully. In the adult world you can't beat up everyone who is mean to you.

 

[TheIceQueen]

Snip.

The problem here, OP, is that you've created a leading hypothetical that doesn't fit for the current demographic of either this thread or your last thread and it's rather clever of you to try and hide behind something like a high school bully problem. This is as leading as a loaded question, however. Most of us are adults now, OP. We do adult things and we live adult lives and we've moved on from high school. And while beating your bully up in high school might be a valid solution in some cases, it's still a childish solution at best.

But most of us are adults here. And instead of bringing a childish teenage hypothetical situation into this, I want you to name for me an adult situation where retaliation in the form physicality is a legit solution whilst also not being childish. And don't self-defense, as that would be the clear exception to the rule. Name for me a situation in an adult life where physical violence would be a viable, mature solution that doesn't involve stupidity or alcohol with either, or both, parties.

It's easy enough to hide behind the high school bully problem, but hardly any of us are in high school anymore and so you're not going to get childish high school answers from most of us.