On Arty 2D Platformers
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
They're fundamentally different. 3D platforming and 2D platforming are entirely different genres... kinda like the difference between a FPS and a 2D shooter.summerof2010 said:
It takes great skill to make a 3D platformer out of an old one, mostly because you're making an entirely different kind of game. The Sonic games show how it's done badly (IE, shoehorning in too many features of the 2D games). The Mario ones show how it's done right (making a game that only shares themes).
That's essentially what I think Yahtzee's getting at.
EDIT: Better analogy up top.
I'm not denying that nolstalgia is a significant factor in the success of 2D games, but I personally just love them...not because I grew up with games like them, but because they offer an experience that can never be perfectly duplicated in 3D games.
Time Fcuk has you playing a little boy who's head increases in size due to a sentient tumour. Retro graphics, incredibly bleak and simplistic soundtrack. Ticks all the boxes.
/Recommendation
At a stretch, I'd say arty platformers are my favourite genre. Isn't that sad in today's world of multi-million triple-A projects?
/Recommendation
At a stretch, I'd say arty platformers are my favourite genre. Isn't that sad in today's world of multi-million triple-A projects?
The analogy for me in this "debate" if it can be called one is similar to music. Sometimes a great talent or a great song would get lost in the over production of a big studio. The best place to hear it is busker style on a street corner. Sometimes you hear one dude sing a little song and he's incredible. This is the great 2D platformer, and one of the few ways an obscure musician might get recognised and elevated to new heights.
But there are lots of buskers, and alot of them aren't that great. Of course give an ok busker's song the full production treatment of orchestra, sampling, marketing etc. and it can be ok and built for mainstream radio, but at it's core it's meh. This is the same as a lot of mainstream games.
Gameplay is just the technical proficiency of the musician. Yeah, I can tell they're a great guitarist, or they write great lyrics but frankly the style of the music just isn't my thing. Purely a taste issue no matter how good a musician they are. Sometimes the producer takes a great song and ruins it, like Mass Effect shoe-horning in Mako missions, then planet scanning? But I can ignore the crappy "drum-beat" because I like the chorus... as it were. Also it can be a crap song but production makes it digestible, "Hit me baby one more time" by Britney was pointed out to me by a DJ as a well produced song but in reality fairly crap. Next time I listened I understood exactly what he meant. Modern Warfare 2 fits this bill for me.
So nostalgia doesn't come in to it. It's like saying "Wow, remember when you could only hear music on cassette tapes and then it was only ever one person with guitar or piano?" That's just luddite thinking. It doesn't make it better. And people who claim it's more "pure" sound just like music snobs who want to appear cool by saying "Yeah, I only go for busker music, anything else is a sell-out to evil music corporations and is turning to the dark side.... if you like Girls Aloud your a plebian sheep" just before I head-butt them.
Sometimes I want to listen to Blind Lemon Slim, but I also want Jack Johnson, both simple singer-song writers well played. Doesn't mean I like ALL solo artists, and it can be new or old. I sometimes like ELO, huge production but also good music. And yeah, Girls Aloud are a horrendous marketing gimmick but sometimes I want big production which makes it all sound better.
Good gameplay is good gameplay, doesn't mean I have to "love" the game because they were clever. And I like good games regardless if it's a stripped back, low-production 2D platformer, or a multi-billion dollar project funded by NASA. And I hate bad games that feel like a cheap cash-in, no matter what the production.
And the whole "Lost innoccence" is just a archetypal theme in music, books, art, film, and games. It's a separate entity to 2D platformers. It's as reliable a go-to story type as the love interest of mario and princess peach (poor working class guy chasing the hottest girl they can find).
But there are lots of buskers, and alot of them aren't that great. Of course give an ok busker's song the full production treatment of orchestra, sampling, marketing etc. and it can be ok and built for mainstream radio, but at it's core it's meh. This is the same as a lot of mainstream games.
Gameplay is just the technical proficiency of the musician. Yeah, I can tell they're a great guitarist, or they write great lyrics but frankly the style of the music just isn't my thing. Purely a taste issue no matter how good a musician they are. Sometimes the producer takes a great song and ruins it, like Mass Effect shoe-horning in Mako missions, then planet scanning? But I can ignore the crappy "drum-beat" because I like the chorus... as it were. Also it can be a crap song but production makes it digestible, "Hit me baby one more time" by Britney was pointed out to me by a DJ as a well produced song but in reality fairly crap. Next time I listened I understood exactly what he meant. Modern Warfare 2 fits this bill for me.
So nostalgia doesn't come in to it. It's like saying "Wow, remember when you could only hear music on cassette tapes and then it was only ever one person with guitar or piano?" That's just luddite thinking. It doesn't make it better. And people who claim it's more "pure" sound just like music snobs who want to appear cool by saying "Yeah, I only go for busker music, anything else is a sell-out to evil music corporations and is turning to the dark side.... if you like Girls Aloud your a plebian sheep" just before I head-butt them.
Sometimes I want to listen to Blind Lemon Slim, but I also want Jack Johnson, both simple singer-song writers well played. Doesn't mean I like ALL solo artists, and it can be new or old. I sometimes like ELO, huge production but also good music. And yeah, Girls Aloud are a horrendous marketing gimmick but sometimes I want big production which makes it all sound better.
Good gameplay is good gameplay, doesn't mean I have to "love" the game because they were clever. And I like good games regardless if it's a stripped back, low-production 2D platformer, or a multi-billion dollar project funded by NASA. And I hate bad games that feel like a cheap cash-in, no matter what the production.
And the whole "Lost innoccence" is just a archetypal theme in music, books, art, film, and games. It's a separate entity to 2D platformers. It's as reliable a go-to story type as the love interest of mario and princess peach (poor working class guy chasing the hottest girl they can find).
My personal problem with artsy 2D platformers is that they are largely based on jumping mechanics inherited from Mario (eg. jump on head to kill). Not owning a NES I've never mastered it as a kid - my favorite C64 platformers (like Rick Dangerous) all included "normal" straight shooting mechanics and put less emphasis on jumping. When I finally saw Mario for the first time I was like "meh, no shooting" and never played it past first stage. Now this bites me in the ass - even though I can logically figure out Braid puzzles, I find it hellishly difficult to execute the solution.
Therefore for me it would be great if someone made an artsy platformer using non-Mario mechanics. Or, even better, artsy shoot'em up in the "you fly up and shoot" style. Hmm... perhaps I'll try that one myself.
Therefore for me it would be great if someone made an artsy platformer using non-Mario mechanics. Or, even better, artsy shoot'em up in the "you fly up and shoot" style. Hmm... perhaps I'll try that one myself.
Two things:
Pretentious does not mean arty.
Does it seem like this article ends a paragraph or two early?
Pretentious does not mean arty.
Does it seem like this article ends a paragraph or two early?
Personally, I liked Yahtzee's ZP review on Limbo. Pathetic little, ill-defined big-headed character, in a dark, scary (if your idea of scary is one in which everything is so blurred out you can't really make much out) world. Ooohhh! It's so arty and edgy! It must be great.
Sounds more like the dev team was strapped for cash. "Well, they just slashed the budget again. So, art team - you can use three colors: black, white, and grey, and we can't afford for you to really do any great art work, so make everything ill-defined, including the player character, and smudge the hell out of everything else; programmers, we can only afford three controls, left/right, jump, interact. Okay people, get busy"
Sounds more like the dev team was strapped for cash. "Well, they just slashed the budget again. So, art team - you can use three colors: black, white, and grey, and we can't afford for you to really do any great art work, so make everything ill-defined, including the player character, and smudge the hell out of everything else; programmers, we can only afford three controls, left/right, jump, interact. Okay people, get busy"
Which post? I don't see.kaijyuu said:
In that case I'd have mentioned Metroid Prime. The way he phrased it just sounded like he was saying basic platforming game mechanics like... jumping, I guess, don't work in 3D -- to which I responded incredulously. There have been plenty of games that feature platforming as a major part of gameplay, even if there really aren't enough "pure" platformers (which I was just talking about in another thread before reading this article), and they all work perfectly well.
In either case, I don't even feel like the point explains why indie devs like 2D platformers very well, which is what he was getting at, no? I guess if platforming didn't work well in 3D, it would explain why platforming bent devs chose 2D over 3D, but might they decide on a different genre? I think a more important point is that producing in 2D is cheaper and less time consuming. Also, while he did cite the typical fanboy love for the "retro" look, he failed to point out the obvious fact that acting like your game is "retro" is a perfect way to excuse all the cut corners and shoddy production values, and therefore be accepted in a wider market.
I'm not saying he missed the point entirely, I'm just disagreeing with him.
Since 3D and platformers do not mix well, mainstream developers have largely stopped making them. And if they do, then the 3D gameplay is very different from a 2D one. So the 2D bent devs choose platformers as the genre to avoid competition with the mainstream. Other genres have not changed that much during transition to 3D, or their 3D forms are generally considered superior - look for example at racing games - so indies in those genres have to somewhat compete with mainstream for visibility.summerof2010 said:
I was thinking about that game to when i saw the first review of Limbo... well not entirely true. Actually i was thinking something like "omg why this indie guys like so much mario games? and what the world did to deserve an emo gothic mario homage?." Then i remember that limbo is actually more like "Heart of the darkness" than mario.Denmarkian said:
Ps.: Sorry if my english is awful today but windows decided to update on my 3 pcs, update and crash. ARghhhhhh.
That's a very good point. You're right that within genres the transition between dimensions (wow, that sounded cooler than it is) was much easier for shooters and racers, etc., than platformers, so it makes sense that people stopped making them in favor of the less dangerous genres. I can see why indie developers would then be all over that since it's such an untapped market.m64 said:
However, I oppose the first thing you said, just as I opposed it when Yahtzee said (or I thought he said) it. Platforming works in 3D, even if it's different from it's 2D forefathers. I just wish there were more games like Prince of Persia around.
Well, this was more of a "mental shortcut" then a firm opinion. Sure, platforming can work in 3D - for example early Tomb Raiders had very platformy fill, almost like Prince of Persia. Speaking of which - Sands of Time. My point is that 3D platformers are very different beasts from 2D ones, to the point of being a virtually separate genre.summerof2010 said: