On Difficulty and the State of Gaming.

[Vault101]

I think you got ripped off there...

it has less charachterisation/story than a popcorn flick

I was trying to be charitable, although I do like Nate just a teensy bit. Nate's an affable dudebro.

I still don't know why that soulless Russian cardboard cut-out didn't just use his attack helicopters to fly over the area he knew Shangri-La was hidden. Derpaderp, better waste them on this one guy instead of just flying away and looking down for like ten minutes.

UC2 seriously made me not want to play The Last of Us, and that was going to be my first new console game purchase since... Mass Effect 3, I think.

I went into the uncharted series activly trying not to hate Nathan Drake....I now hate nathan drake

and the "drama" is laughable

drake: "everything I do turns to SHIT WAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!"

in UC2 "you have to BELLLLIIIIVVE! DRAKE! BELEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIVE!!" <-belive what? what arre we talking about? the Idea of supernatural forces? don;t tel me drake doesnt belive in that after the events of UC1

russian guy: you and I drake..[b/]*dun dun dun*[/b] are not so different [b/]*dramatic music*[/b] really? could that get anymore cliche? it doesnt even make sense its just a wishy washy load of nothing

don't get me wrong uncharted series had its moments but really it could have been better

 

[Toxic Sniper]

I don't think Dark Souls is impossibly difficult. My 12 year old brother beat it, both the full game and the DLC. He's right now on NG+. There is no password or trick to entering the Dark Souls cool kids' club. You just play the game and enjoy it, and if you're stuck you can try asking for help; the resident "elitists" are only too happy to explain the game systems to those who are new.

Why does Dark Souls need a difficulty option? If you think it's too hard for you, it probably isn't, especially if you summon other players to give you a hand. If you don't like hard games, you can just play one of the many games where one of the core features isn't an uncompromising and unyielding difficulty. Seems like people are asking for something the developers really don't need to waste programming on.

 

[Atmos Duality]

A Dark Souls Rant...of course it is. *sigh*
Using the same fallacious logic others have employed, no less.
Screw it. I've done my arguments on this subject before and had them all ignored out of convenience or misinterpreted.

I'm grabbing my popcorn and just enjoying the show until this boils over, or the moderators lock it.

 

[piinyouri]

Why don't the people whining about wanting an easy game go play something else?

I mean aside from the difficulty and the online features, Dark Souls was just a fairly generic fantasy game. There are tons of games out there filling that 'niche', why not play them instead?

Not quite true.
I'd love to give Dark Souls a go because it has a couple things I like.
A dark, eerie aethetic, action mixed with RPG elements, character customization and great level design.

 

[Mr C]

I love both Souls games. I enjoy the challenge, but would have no issue with an easy mode. I would however, be strongly against a new Souls game pulling a Ninja Gaiden 3 on us.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I guess Dark Souls is already a pointless fuckin' game then because the game is damn easy.

Well yeah, once you figure the combat out. But I seriously doubt all you actually did was block and use the weak attack, by virtue of the sheer amount of attacks that can't be blocked, and the situations where you have to fight multiple enemies, and the simple fact that without learning to judge your timing properly you would never have gotten a hit in against some enemies... and then there's the fact that simply strafing to hit things in the back would never work against a half decent invader...

Either you're a weirdly gifted player or you're seriously downplaying the actual learning process involved. Either way, it doesn't really undermine what I was saying.

I played the thief with just clothes and a light shield, and you could block most boss's attacks just fine, and pretty much all normal enemies.

 

[elvor0]

-snip-

Right. So there's an easy difficulty and a hard difficulty. Easy was added in later, Hard was not touched. People who want to play easy can do so. People who play on hard, can continue to do so, with nothing changed.

Also, most games have achievements for beating the game on a certain difficulty. If someone doesn't complete it on hard, they don't get that achievement.

Now care to tell me what's wrong with that set up? To me this just sounds like it's pointless...no sorry I can't do this politely any more. Stop bitching, you whiny self entitled mong. If there are difficulty settings, then it WILL NOT EFFECT YOU. If the game was nerfed as a whole, yes you'd have an argument, but they didn't, hard mode is still there, easy mode has no effect on it, grow a spine and stop fucking moaning. EASY IS AN OPTION. You do not have to play on it. Your achievement for completing it on hard will still be there to make you feel better, and you can join the rest of the folks in the Dark Souls(or whatever) precious Hard Mode club. Yeah I love sonic, I /love/ me some sonic, and if they bought it out with a easy SETTING, I couldn't care less. Y'know why? Because I'd still have the OPTION to play it on the original fucking difficulty.

And just so this goes in: If lots of difficulty settings are there, people who want the appropriate difficulty will pick them. If someone is playing the game on easy, it will not effect your game that is set to hard. Lots of sales for the game, everyone is happy. If you want to play it on hard, fucking play it on hard. Option. Choice. Setting. Mode. Modifier. You Choose. Pick. Determine. Decide. Assign. Elect. Opt for. See Fit.

Yes I realise I'm repeating myself, but maybe if I say it enough times it'll get through.

 

[Something Amyss]

So this is just the Dark Souls thing again, no you are not alone in wanting your precious Dark Souls club to stay precious, as seen in the dozens of threads on this very topic.

And ZOMG, EASY MODE CHEAPENS US ALL!

I can't facepalm enough for that one.

 

[Broderick]

Why don't the people whining about wanting an easy game go play something else?

I mean aside from the difficulty and the online features, Dark Souls was just a fairly generic fantasy game. There are tons of games out there filling that 'niche', why not play them instead?

Not quite true.
I'd love to give Dark Souls a go because it has a couple things I like.
A dark, eerie aesthetic, action mixed with RPG elements, character customization and great level design.

I would say just give it a go and see if it really lives up to the hype. Generally while the game is "hard", it is only "hard" in the way that it punishes you for not paying attention. A good most of the difficulty comes from the enemies combined with environmental constraints. If you pay attention to your surroundings, and learn from any past mistakes, the game is generally an exhilarating but fair experience(with two or three exceptions).

I just don't think the game needs an easy mode when there is already such a thing in the game that helps in that regard, this would be summoning players. Summoning players or npc phantoms makes many of the bosses piss easy, and players can help you get past any section you may be stuck on.

(The rest of my post from here down is going to talk about easy mode, and the implications and difficulties of adding it, mostly focusing on the pvp aspect).

I believe that aside from the aesthetic purposes of the difficulty, the easy mode would supply a player with a sub-par experience in which they could breeze through in a couple hours, as the difficulty actually helps with the pacing of the game. Of course, while I am not opposed to an easy mode as a concept, I just do not think it can be implemented in the best way possible. Just scaling down enemy attacks or up player armor will only help in the pve aspect. How would it effect pvp? Would the easy mode players only be able to invade other easy mode players? If so, then the player base has been split. Do you make easy an offline only mode? Are easy and hard mode players invading each other, and if so, does pvp just not change? Do easy mode players get an edge in battle, and if so, what is stopping veteran players from just pvping in easy mode for that edge? These are things that need to be addressed if an easy mode were to be implemented.

 

[Yopaz]

How does an option (that NO-ONE is forcing you to use) ruin the game?

A. It leads developers to believe that players have the IQs of dildos and the patience of a kid after drinking a liter of soda, leading them to make games like Dead Space 3, which are easy as hell on the highest difficulty.

No, this doesn't have to be the case. Your example is a 4 year old series. My example is the Tales of series. This series has had difficulty modes since 1995 which makes it 17 year old. 17 years and the unknown mode in Tales of the Abyss was so hard it took me 10 minutes to fight the first normal enemy in the game. They have actually just made games harder with their new installments.

Now this isn't any more proof than your claim. I don't know the developers of either studio so I can't say why they make games harder or easier.

B. The game is not going to benefit from being a brainless hack and slasher. It is designed specifically for the creatures to be hard as balls to kill and it forces the player to think. Adding difficulty will mean that the entire game has to be redesigned to accommodate the fact that the creatures pose no real threat. It would be like playing Hexen on god mode otherwise. It won't even be that fun SINCE THERE WILL PROBABLY BE QUEST MARKERS.

Simple solution for you, don't play on easy mode. Maybe someone will think it's fun.

I don't understand this notion that all games must have "accommodation". It's as if there is this psychology that a challenge is threatening to people and they are too afraid to play because losing will make them feel bad. Players should be encouraged to tackle challenges, not avoid them. There are first hand examples of what happened to the FPS, with the genre morphing into the "modern military shooter". Accommodation does not bring new players into the series. Accommodation creates a homogenized mess in publishers' game libraries and it DESTROYS franchises. Look at Medal of Honor. Look at Dead Space. Look at Resident Evil.

A successful game is a game that earns money. A successful game appeals to a large audience. A successful game gets a sequel. Now I want a new Tales of game, but the series generally don't sell enough copies for them to release it in Europe. Now if they gave me an optional mode called tit mode where all the girls would be naked in order to sell more copies and have it released then I wouldn't care. I play the game for the challenge and the story. I wouldn't use the tit mode. It wouldn't affect my playthrough at all.

Just sit down, stop for a second, THINK and proceed. Nothing bad is going to happen if you die. If you need a break, take a break. Wash the dishes. Walk the dog. Read a book. Then come

back and try again. Dark Souls is not that hard.

Dark Souls teaches you to think and develop strategies for a variety of situations while providing you with tons of tools. Take advantage of that.

I don't mind difficulty in the least. In fact I love it, easy games make me bored. It's the reason I didn't buy Ninja Gaiden 3. I'm just saying that if they add a difficulty mode that I wont be forced to use, it wont change anything for me at all. You seem to think this impossible, but I have seen it with almost all Tales of games and I still see that series delivering controller snapping difficulty.

 

[Toxic Sniper]

Not quite true.

I'd love to give Dark Souls a go because it has a couple things I like.
A dark, eerie aethetic, action mixed with RPG elements, character customization and great level design.

So why don't you give it a try? Again, Dark Souls' difficulty isn't anywhere impossible, and it's a key component of the atmosphere and level design that you admire.

Even if you ever really get stuck, it's always possible to reverse your hollowing, summon a stranger, and do battle together for jolly cooperation.

 

[piinyouri]

Not quite true.

I'd love to give Dark Souls a go because it has a couple things I like.
A dark, eerie aethetic, action mixed with RPG elements, character customization and great level design.

So why don't you give it a try? Again, Dark Souls' difficulty isn't anywhere impossible, and it's a key component of the atmosphere and level design that you admire.

I've played Demon Souls, I know how difficult the games are.

 

[bigwon]

At first I felt with that the mere basis of the game design would make something like this impossible. but.....

I think the simplest solution: take cues from what ninja gaiden did. You died so many times, and got the option to play the rest of the game with a bit of a buff....but with a pink ribbon (or something) to signify your wackness.

but in this game you can also implement a cruddy non ending like in ghosts and ghouls...strip away certain online features that incorporate the normal players, take some of the real juicy portions (pvp,areas,npcs,etc.) of the game and keep them for normal mode, when the n00bs are unsatisfied with the crappy ending and want to give it another shot.

I really think that'd be a neat way to implement it. To keep the artistic integrity, while letting folks in on experience. I enjoyed the experience I got...and i haven't even beaten the game! The first time i went to tackle sen's fortress (i think) with all of the snake men, and swinging axes, and yadda was just so cool, and totally fit the pacing of the game. I think you could still give that experience to those wanting it easier but also add the incentive to revisit the game on the normal difficulty. Just because it's easy mode...doesn't mean it has to be playable by a toddler. Ninja Gaiden Black was quite successful..it wasn't that easy on easy mode.

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Easy Mode: summon other players...makes it a cake walk.

Maybe they could've simply tweaked this feature to be more user friendly, and promoted it more.

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I really like what dark soul's does though, such a fresh game! such a fresh game! I liked how it got me doing mental game-pad acrobatics. The level design, game mechanics (fighting,exploration,rpg,items,npc's,etc.)aesthetics, and pacing (things i go on about alot) were perfect in relative to the concept of the game.....and it really gave me an immersive experience. If nothing else I just wish that other game developers would simply take cues from what helped make dark souls good, and simply implement it in there game design philosophy. I just can't stand when seemingly good ideas get bogged down because it's whats expected to draw the crowd....i mean think of the music industry, and were playing safe got them....it's pretty much stagnant! Dark Souls is almost what bebop music was to jazz or any other more complicated like music...you have to sort of train yourself to get the most out of it (as the listener!), like listeners would do to enjoy seemingly overwhelming music. It was more of a spiritual thing to many, but not being a fan of that myself I feel dark souls as a game could take a good look into it's core game design and tweak it a bit.

It takes effort to make a well rounded game! that's why it's an artform!

And...I just might of lost you with that last bit if I managed to get your attention to begin with....hehe

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Yeah i separate my idea's with big lines for now..

I feel although legit as 'pattern memorizing' is as an argument....alot of my mishaps in the game i found were attributed to the lack of grinding for stats/souls or character build. If you could just bolster the player with enough stats to make the game less about grinding for stats and just learning the 'patterns' I think you might just have a winner. Reason I think you'd need stats boosted is just because of those certain scenario's that just completely decimate you....I'm looking at this mother fucker! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tf8rAyI85I I DON"T CARE about the exploit! THOSE TWO MOTHER FUCKING DOGS!!!GOD WHY!!?!?!??!GOD WHY!?>!??!?!?

 

[bigwon]

I don't think Dark Souls is impossibly difficult. My 12 year old brother beat it, both the full game and the DLC. He's right now on NG+. There is no password or trick to entering the Dark Souls cool kids' club. You just play the game and enjoy it, and if you're stuck you can try asking for help; the resident "elitists" are only too happy to explain the game systems to those who are new.

Why does Dark Souls need a difficulty option? If you think it's too hard for you, it probably isn't, especially if you summon other players to give you a hand. If you don't like hard games, you can just play one of the many games where one of the core features isn't an uncompromising and unyielding difficulty. Seems like people are asking for something the developers really don't need to waste programming on.

I think this might just be the best solution at the end of the day...lol....The game seems to be successful enough, let them make the games that they, and many who play them dream about.

but still it's just a shame that so many less devoted have to be deprived such a game. (this game takes devotion at the very least you have to admit hehe)

 

[JEBWrench]

People are still talking about Dark Souls?

Alright: I have never played, nor will ever play Dark Souls. I'm fine with that. I admire the ability of a developer of a game to say, in essence, "This game is not for you" to me.

It can keep its no Easy mode, and I'll keep playing the games that I enjoy. I paid my dues, I want my cheap satisfaction.

battletoads was crap.
yeah, i said it.

It was also functionally broken, and violated consumer rights. Let's not forget that.

 

[octafish]

Yeah in the olden days no-one wanted easy games. That is why not one single gameshark was ever sold.

 

[The_Echo]

I thought we were done with this bullshit. I really thought we were. Here's a summary of this stupid non-issue as far as I care to understand it.

"This game was made for a niche audience that enjoys difficulty and challenge, but I don't like those things, so they should change the game to fit what I want!"

If you do not like that Dark Souls is a hard game, then it wasn't made for you. Not every game is made for you. Complaining about it officially makes you that guy [http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=BJEvhi2OlEY#t=6s].

Spoiler: And here's my detailed opinion on the topic.

Dark Souls, and indeed its oft-forgotten predecessor Demon's Souls, are supposed to be hard. Everything about the game's design is geared to be difficult. This isn't Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII, a game wherein the difference between Normal and Hard is an difference in numbers. In Souls, literally everything has been done to serve the gameplay. This is enemy placement, patterns, and of course the environment itself. Even the Hollow Soldiers in the beginning of the game can kill you as you approach the endgame if you play like a dumb.

A lot of people say "urrr this game is just trial and error bullshit" but that's entirely incorrect. Yes, some things will catch you off-guard, but in a game you know is hard, you should always be on-guard and paying attention. Yes, you will die, and you very well may die a lot. You have to be patient with these games, you have to learn and adapt to the situation. It's a far different beast than most modern action games.

Easy Mode in a Souls game means one of two things:
1. Artificial Easy: giving the player avatar strength by dialing up the damage you do, making enemies weaker, etc.
2. Completely redesigning the game for an easy mode. In an ideal world, there would be two different versions of the game for Easy and Hard Modes. That's the only way both difficulties could feel like an organic, complete experience.

In turn, Souls is the spiritual successor of the King's Field games, which far as I know were also quite hard. Given all of these things, why would there be an easy mode? Why should there be? To appease those who want it to be easy? The main selling point for these games is their difficulty.

You know what I do when I'm interested in a game, but then find something about its gameplay I don't like? I either get over it, or move on to a different game more attuned to my tastes. It's as simple as that.

Frankly, if you cannot understand this... I don't know what to tell you.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Look, I've espoused my views dozens of times by now. What I'm going to say in this instance is, having read a page of replies, to those who criticise pro-difficulty views: are you all thick? You claim to be tired of the multitude of Dark Souls threads that have been the exact same thing, and yet still barely any of you have accomodated the perfectly reasonable arguments for having a single difficulty - that it is a main concept behind the game's design, that it would be a lot shorter were the enemies easy to kill the first time around, that the risk and reward of having to keep your souls on you is a game mechanic, that the rest of the game outside combat being equally obtuse and inaccessible would make the game boring, that Dark Souls is actually VOLUNTARILY DIFFICULT and provides countless ways in-game to help you if you decide to access them (not to mention the fucking LIMITLESS external sources of help if you're into that) - into your posts, and instead opting, as many of you have from the beginning, to lump it all together and call it 'elitism'. I, and the vast majority of other posters I've seen sympathise with 'my' viewpoint, would not mind if more people could play, and finish, Dark Souls. IF THEY PUT THE FUCKING EFFORT IN (WHICH ISN'T HARD). You know who I don't want playing Dark Souls? The people who couldn't breeze through, not pay any attention to their surroundings (read as: people who think Sen's Fortress is artificially difficult), not try to meet the game on its terms, and instead demand that it be tailored to their style of play. What it amounts to in the case of Dark Souls is basically not wanting to play a game the way it's designed to be played.

Captcha: "it hurts" - even Captcha is sick of this little tirade.

But very briefly, my views on easy mode are: If it were implemented the easy mode would misrepresent the game and provide a different, worse experience, Dark Souls could definitely have done a better job of explaining mechanics like poise within the narrative and if that were part of DkS2 I would not mind at all, and if it isn't implemented, which looks to be the case, I don't want the game made less challenging, more linear, or less satisfying, for the sake of people who aren't interested in what is being offered.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Fact is, more people being able to play your game is good. Nothing can change that, it's simple business. If you don't like it, I'm sorry.

It may be business, but in any other sphere of actual content it's the sign of stagnation. What is accessible is what is common. Being in touch with the masses means antagonism to nobody, which means nothing is being pushed at, no direction being strived for. If we seek only the broadest audience then no content is, can be, above anything else and everything is valued equally.

These are good enough reasons to oppose difficulty levels and dumbing-down. It's not a wanting to be in an exclusive club, though it may be for some.