On Dongles

[Requia]

As for that little incident I think that women was way out of line with reporting it. She got a guy fired because he was telling a in no way misogynist but sexually charge joke to his friend and coworker beside him.

She wasn't out of line, I mean she's hypocritical and an attention seeker for doing it when she makes the same kind of jokes, but all she did was ***** about it on twitter. The guys bosses were way the fuck out of line for firing him, and the people who attacked her work because of it were way out of line. (I'm not sure about her company, I haven't quite figured out the protocol for how to handle an employee that pisses off Anonymous).

 

[LordFish]

I'm sorry, I don't like to post wholly negative comments but... This comic has NEVER made me laugh, or chuckle, or think deeply about a subject. It's just, THERE.

At best it's bland and forgettable and at worse it's reactionary and offensive, designed to create controversy and fuel flame wars.

On the plus side the art is always of a high standard, just the writing... oh god the writing.

 

[xorinite]

I understand it for normal clubs, but not for after parties.

Sure the parties are supposed to be fun, but this implies that for it to be fun you need to have attractive woman to talk to.

Which do you prefer night club raves where everyone is of the same ethnicity, country of origin, culture, sex, sexuality, or something where there are a more diverse range of people?

I'm fairly certain that meeting people you are attracted to is part of the point of attending a rave, for everyone who attends those things. Is it wrong of people to want that?

Except that they weren't there to make up some kind of gender difference: They were there as spokes models. They were there to pimp out a specific product or service.

This is not something new, or unique: Clubs do this all the time, when a company hires the space, does the promotion & then hires spokes models (male & female depending on the expected demographic) to pimp out a product or service: Its part of the promotion.

I'm not sure what your background is, but this is pretty workaday stuff guys.

Thanks for the correction, accuracy matters.

Where are you getting your information?
You appear to be better informed than I am about this, and well I'd like to have better knowledge of something I am discussing.

My background is not in organising clubbing events or similar, so it might be workaday stuff for someone else but its not for me.

I see what you are saying this was some kind of sales promotion, I should have known better than to think the after party would just be for entertainment. Its like TV, you think its for entertainment but in reality its trying to get you to pay attention to advertisements.

 

[ellieallegro]

As someone with event planning experience this is a huge blunder on behalf of the vendor. Yes, it is workaday stuff to hire entertainment but part of the responsibility of the party/event planner is to be tapped in to the audience and the market of the client. Whoever organized and hired the entertainment as well as not giving guidelines to the DJ failed miserably at their job.

A few key points:
It doesn't matter how any entertainment is dressed: Bunny ears and gas masks, stripper g-strings and heels, shirtless male models with only a bowtie, or clothed head to toe in a suit or potato sack. The only thing that matters is that they are getting paid to stand there, dance and look pretty/handsome/desirable. That is what makes it sexist [this works for both genders] and is inappropriate.

Now if both genders were represented and they were serving drinks and providing some entertainment as a service in which they just happened to be dressed up as game characters in bunny ears and gas masks then it would be ok. Why? They are getting paid as a server/entertainer not as a model/sex object. Yes, this is semantics but anyone not bright enough to know the difference shouldn't be event planning in the first place.

To sum up: Scantily clad men or women being paid to model or jiggle around: Not ok. Same women or men serving drinks or providing entertainment like fire-breathing who just happen to be scantily clad: Ok.

 

[rbstewart7263]

For those who don't know, this is about that conference recently (think it was an IGDA conference) that brought out strippers in what should have been a professional environment for no apparent reason other than to have strippers.

Is this another prude USA thing? as in the UK our shopping centre's (malls to you I believe) have strippers during the day all the time and people of all ages just accept it I've never seen women when with there children show any offence anyway.

It is a prude usa thing we confuse "respect" and "rights" with "cover the lady bits". Like over here those dancers are seen as a barrier for women to come into our hobby and make games.

I guess most of our lady developers will be from the Uk. shrug lol

 

[SidheKnight]

-Snip-

I just used the word sexism in order to not use the word discrimination 2 times in a row. Probably a poor choice of words. I'd have gone with "unintentionally sexist behaviour"

I don't think that the people who hired the dancers did it with bad intent at all. Unfortunately one can offend some people unintentionally some times.

I didn't know the dance event was something separate from the conference when I read about it, so I don't think it was that bad. Just that by only catering to one gender the other one may feel ignored and take it personally, even though it was just an honest mistake and not a deliverate action to marginalize one gender.

As for hiring male strippers being seen as a blatantly PC statement.. well of course it would be seen that way, because that's exactly what it is, but there's nothing wrong with that. It'd just be a recognition of the fact that game developement is not a "boys only" club anymore.

 

[wulf3n]

Which do you prefer night club raves where everyone is of the same ethnicity, country of origin, culture, sex, sexuality, or something where there are a more diverse range of people?

I'm fairly certain that meeting people you are attracted to is part of the point of attending a rave, for everyone who attends those things. Is it wrong of people to want that?

We've gone back in circles again. This isn't about a generic rave/party, this is about an event organised by industry professionals for industry professionals.

Except that they weren't there to make up some kind of gender difference: They were there as spokes models. They were there to pimp out a specific product or service.

This is not something new, or unique: Clubs do this all the time, when a company hires the space, does the promotion & then hires spokes models (male & female depending on the expected demographic) to pimp out a product or service: Its part of the promotion.

I'm not sure what your background is, but this is pretty workaday stuff guys.

Thanks for the correction, accuracy matters.

Where are you getting your information?
You appear to be better informed than I am about this, and well I'd like to have better knowledge of something I am discussing.

My background is not in organising clubbing events or similar, so it might be workaday stuff for someone else but its not for me.

I see what you are saying this was some kind of sales promotion, I should have known better than to think the after party would just be for entertainment. Its like TV, you think its for entertainment but in reality its trying to get you to pay attention to advertisements.

Don't believe anything something tells you as "fact" when they can't provide a source.

e.g.

Source [http://yetizen.com/2013/03/30/official-statement-by-the-yetizen-ceo-on-the-yetizen-igda-gdc-party/2/]
"Fact 5: YetiZen did not hire dancers. We hired avid gamers, who happened to be models, to discuss gaming with the invited guests."

 

[wulf3n]

Mathew.. wulfen.. you guys should have an ERB... thought i think mathew would win because he actually has arguments instead of "HAHAHA"..

Oh, I had an argument, but after 2 pages of strawmen,false accusations, and willful ignorance, I decided to treat the "discussion" like the joke it was.

 

[stabnex]

I think that last panel jumped her into Awkward Zone Omega.

OT: BUTTSLOL.

S(ERIOUSLY)OT: I thought of throwing the word "uptight" in somewhere, but honestly I think comedy puts our concerns into much better, and more socially acceptable terms than I ever could

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Why should a company not hire dancers to dance at a party?

Because it's crass. If the people at a party want to dance, then they should dance. What's the purpose of hiring someone to dance as a spectacle in such a situation (regardless of gender)?

But regarding gender, strippers or not, why is it always females who get hired as such dancers? Even if they are fully-clothed, it's pretty creepy that they are parading a bunch of women in front of the crowd for some reason that has nothing to do with the topics of the conference.

 

[wulf3n]

But, again for the sake of accuraccy, no one hired dancer. The company hired spokes models who were invited to get up on stage & dance.

Again, how do you know they were "spokes models" other than "discuss games" we don't know why they were there, or what intent YetiZen had for them.

An again, i'll point out that the scenario you & other people are presenting did not happen. A group of spokes models were circulating at a party/rave at a night club & were asked if they wanted to dance on stage.

You're countering a fabricated scenario with another fabricated scenario.

Do you see why this is getting confusing.

 

[xorinite]

We've gone back in circles again. This isn't about a generic rave/party, this is about an event organised by industry professionals for industry professionals.

Well actually we look like we're discussing a bunch of things at once. A conference and two distinct parties, one a rave run by wargaming, and one a party run by YetiZen. I am going to go to pains to make a distinction because its going to be nightmarish to follow our conversation for anyone else if we don't.

that having been said I don't see how that is relevant to the specifics of the effect of the presence of people you find attractive on the amount you enjoy something which is what this is in responce to.

Don't believe anything something tells you as "fact" when they can't provide a source.

e.g.

Source [http://yetizen.com/2013/03/30/official-statement-by-the-yetizen-ceo-on-the-yetizen-igda-gdc-party/2/]
"Fact 5: YetiZen did not hire dancers. We hired avid gamers, who happened to be models, to discuss gaming with the invited guests."

I don't neccesarily believe things even when someone can provide me a source. It depends on the quality of the source and the nature of the claim.
However you may notice I did ask for a source and I thank you for providing one.

Although, a little bit of irony telling me not to believe anything presented as a fact unsourced, then linking me to a list of things stated as facts some of which unsourced don't you think?

YetiZen state that they hired no dancers. When I look up a youtube event promo video, there appear to be stage dancers, stilt walkers, and women in YetiZen t-shirts which I would presume are there as some sort of event functionaries. Press releases from Kate Edwards, indicate there were 'performers'. Which isn't to say these statements are neccecarily in contradiction.

To be frank, I find myself losing interest in this topic. Especially since I cannot even be sure as to what actually occured in the first place. Were there hired dancers or not, it looks like there were. However its' certainly not like the comic strip.

 

[wulf3n]

Well actually we look like we're discussing a bunch of things at once. A conference and two distinct parties, one a rave run by wargaming, and one a party run by YetiZen. I am going to go to pains to make a distinction because its going to be nightmarish to follow our conversation for anyone else if we don't.

that having been said I don't see how that is relevant to the specifics of the effect of the presence of people you find attractive on the amount you enjoy something which is what this is in responce to.

For point of reference I'm only really talking about the YetiZen party, not the wargaming party.

What I'm trying to discern is the points/goals of an "after-party" organised by Industry Professionals for Industry Professionals that is associated with a Conference [YetiZen acquiring the approval of the IGDA to proceed indicates this party is a part of the conference], and whether or not the issue being discussed is necessary to those goals, to idnetify if we can remove said issue without detracting from the overall point of the party, as such making it more inclusive.

Although, a little bit of irony telling me not to believe anything presented as a fact unsourced, then linking me to a list of things stated as facts some of which unsourced don't you think?

Haha, yeah. It's not a "fact" by any stretch of the imagination, but short of actually being there, we have to take some things at face value, for the discussion to move forward. It's really up to personal preference as to what you accept.

To be frank, I find myself losing interest in this topic. Especially since I cannot even be sure as to what actually occured in the first place. Were there hired dancers or not, it looks like there were. However its' certainly not like the comic strip.

That's fair enough. The comic strip did cause a lot of issue to begin with, as it had everyone lumping Strippers, Dancers, Attendees, the YetiZen Party, the Wargaming party, all in the one bag.

 

[wulf3n]

@wulf3n: Mate i gave you time to relax & unclench, but i'm not addressing any further replies to you. You've been given abundant chances to be civil, but instead you've just degenrated into childishness & derailing tactics. As such I'm not planning on further enabling your negative behaviour.

Civility goes both ways. It's hard to be civil to a person who attacks you from the get go with a cherry picked statement taken out of context, and makes grand assumptions about ones[my] position.

If you're willing to start fresh, I'd be happy to undertake a civil discussion.

 

[SacremPyrobolum]

As for that little incident I think that women was way out of line with reporting it. She got a guy fired because he was telling a in no way misogynist but sexually charge joke to his friend and coworker beside him.

She wasn't out of line, I mean she's hypocritical and an attention seeker for doing it when she makes the same kind of jokes, but all she did was ***** about it on twitter. The guys bosses were way the fuck out of line for firing him, and the people who attacked her work because of it were way out of line. (I'm not sure about her company, I haven't quite figured out the protocol for how to handle an employee that pisses off Anonymous).

How is publicly shaming people in front of their peers for something they did not do (make a sexist joke) not out of line? Why does she get to feel like an offended party and attack two random people who she never met over what amounts to a little joke said in a private conversation between friends?