See, save states aren't the problem, it's the way you use them. I use save states to, you know, save the game if I want to go do something else.Akytalusia said:snip
Quick saves, same thing.
See, save states aren't the problem, it's the way you use them. I use save states to, you know, save the game if I want to go do something else.Akytalusia said:snip
To me, that's not cheating. Because to me, cheating is something that gives you an unfair advantage over someone else. That doesn't happen in a singleplayer game. You're not getting an advantage over anyone. If THAT'S the way you enjoy playing a game (though I find it highly unlikely), don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Play it exactly as you feel you get the best experience out of it, whether that is playing on the highest difficulty or using a trainer to give yourself unlimited ammo and health.tippy2k2 said:To me, you're cheating if you're save scumming [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=savescumming] (reloading anytime anything ever goes wrong).
Who put you in charge of that decision? Maybe it's not about winning for you, but maybe it's about winning for someone else. You're trying to dictate how one should enjoy their game. Why?briankoontz said:Games should only be Save on Exit, and should be made as difficult as possible to cheat. This means players know going in that there's always going to be repercussions to one's actions.
Games should not really be about winning. This is a long-time prejudice which we should reexamine.
I'm encouraging game developers and players to think outside the box. The overwhelmingly standard game design is A, B, C, D, E, etc. easily-overcome obstacle, with plot progression based on each obstacle passed. The end of the plot is the win state.Magix said:Who put you in charge of that decision? Maybe it's not about winning for you, but maybe it's about winning for someone else. You're trying to dictate how one should enjoy their game. Why?briankoontz said:Games should only be Save on Exit, and should be made as difficult as possible to cheat. This means players know going in that there's always going to be repercussions to one's actions.
Games should not really be about winning. This is a long-time prejudice which we should reexamine.
And disabling convenient saving would help any of that how?briankoontz said:I'm encouraging game developers and players to think outside the box. The overwhelmingly standard game design is A, B, C, D, E, etc. easily-overcome obstacle, with plot progression based on each obstacle passed. The end of the plot is the win state.Magix said:Who put you in charge of that decision? Maybe it's not about winning for you, but maybe it's about winning for someone else. You're trying to dictate how one should enjoy their game. Why?briankoontz said:Games should only be Save on Exit, and should be made as difficult as possible to cheat. This means players know going in that there's always going to be repercussions to one's actions.
Games should not really be about winning. This is a long-time prejudice which we should reexamine.
There's nothing wrong with this game design, it's highly functional and it makes for good game experiences. But just as too many games feature killing, too many games have this design type.
Games which break out of this mode find amazing freedom in gameplay, like Minecraft for example, or The Sims. Consider a game about human relationships. Friends, enemies, changing allegiances, favors, betrayals, etc. Why reduce that to a series of obstacles in worship of whatever plot the developer decides is worthwhile?
Too many current gamers honor narrative - a strong narrative is what will show the world that games are art, these gamers and analysts tell us. But the problem is that narrative as it currently exists in games is scripted entirely by the developers (and ultimately approved or rejected by the capitalist publisher), unlike the more player-driven narrative in the games I mentioned. Emergent gameplay, what I and some others consider one of the holy grails of game design, is found to some extent in Minecraft and The Sims, and is absolutely not found in Call of Duty or Uncharted.
The AAA industry wants control over the medium. They don't want players to have control. They love Call of Duty not just because it makes a lot of money, but because players have very little freedom within the game.
Were people not busy 25 years ago when games needed to be completed in 1 sitting?tippy2k2 said:To me, you're cheating if you're save scumming [http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=savescumming] (reloading anytime anything ever goes wrong).
I am a huge fan of Save States, and more importantly, automatic save states so that I don't even have to think about it. Why you ask? Well I'm glad you asked imaginary person!
I'm a busy guy
That's what it boils down to. I'm 26 with a full time job (hell, I'm lucky too for I don't have any kids). I have shit to do people! I'm not going to go through a section of game-play for a half hour, get killed, and then do it again because that's how the 133t Hardcore crew wants it done. Frankly, after every encounter, I want my game to save and I have the self control to not just save scum because something bad has happened. I'll take my losses when needed (I play XCOM on Iron Man mode after all) but I'm not going to waste my time replaying the same section over and over and over and over and over again just because I'm five feet from the damn save point but can't get past this last bad guy.
There's a reason gaming went from being a young kid crowd back in the day to what it is today (with the average gamers age being 30 years old (according to the ESA). Kids have that kind of time; most adults do not. Hell, I've abandoned video games (namely Final Fantasy XIII and World of Warcraft) because I've been told "Hey wait! It's a great game, you just need to play 20 hours to get to the good part!". Dafuq? I'm not sinking 20 hours into a game to get to the good part when I can put in hundreds of other titles and get to the good part right now...krazykidd said:Were people not busy 25 years ago when games needed to be completed in 1 sitting?
Were people not busy 20 years ago , when you could only save at the end of a level?
Were people not busy 15 years ago, when you had designated spots to save ( and sometimes people would miss a few by accident)?
Were people not busy 10 years ago, when auto saves would save for you when you past a certain threashhold?
Were people not busy 5 years ago, when quick saves deleted themselves when you reload?
Now people are surprised that a game likr NSMBWIIU , will beat a level for you when you fail to much. We are busy people after all.
That is a horrible analogy. Books aren't interactive. You're not going to go back to your previous bookmark if you don't like the way you read that page.diligentscribbler said:there should never be any limit too when you can save.
if i couldn't put a book mark on any page in a book i would probably get pretty shitty.
same thing more or less.
Why do you assume that gamers 20 years ago were all children? I would argue that the target demographic (13-35)never changed over time . The people who actually bought the consoles had to be adults. Not all of them bought them for their kids . Just like now , gaming was enjoyed by adults and children a like . Hell i would even say that it was more geared towards adults because there were the ones with all the money . So being busy isn't an "excuse". Adults weren't less busy before . I feel like that's just a cop out answer.Now that isn't to say that you aren't busy , you're priority just isn't on completing games ( which is normal, a persons hobby should never be a priority).tippy2k2 said:There's a reason gaming went from being a young kid crowd back in the day to what it is today (with the average gamers age being 30 years old (according to the ESA). Kids have that kind of time; most adults do not. Hell, I've abandoned video games (namely Final Fantasy XIII and World of Warcraft) because I've been told "Hey wait! It's a great game, you just need to play 20 hours to get to the good part!". Dafuq? I'm not sinking 20 hours into a game to get to the good part when I can put in hundreds of other titles and get to the good part right now...krazykidd said:Were people not busy 25 years ago when games needed to be completed in 1 sitting?
Were people not busy 20 years ago , when you could only save at the end of a level?
Were people not busy 15 years ago, when you had designated spots to save ( and sometimes people would miss a few by accident)?
Were people not busy 10 years ago, when auto saves would save for you when you past a certain threashhold?
Were people not busy 5 years ago, when quick saves deleted themselves when you reload?
Now people are surprised that a game likr NSMBWIIU , will beat a level for you when you fail to much. We are busy people after all.
Along with that, technology has now caught up where this is possible. 20 years ago, I was using passwords to continue in Godzilla because you couldn't save (and it became real nice when I could just save to the cartridge in Final Fantasy). To not take advantage of the new technology would be wasteful; it would be like saying that the graphics of the NES were fine and therefore we shouldn't bother doing anything else.
Ultimately, what it comes down to is giving the players options. If it's not 133t hardcore enough for some people, they may choose to not use the options. Most games I've played with Save States will still have it's own natural checkpoints so if Save States are too scrub for someone, they usually will have the option to not use them.
Eh...fair enough. It's assumption on my part since games have always been seen as a "kid" thing and I figured that assumption had to have come from somewhere. Growing up, I never saw an adult play. However, I have nothing "official" to back that up (and Google was no help) so that's a good point.krazykidd said:Why do you assume that gamers 20 years ago were all children? I would argue that the target demographic (13-35)never changed over time . The people who actually bought the consoles had to be adults. Not all of them bought them for their kids . Just like now , gaming was enjoyed by adults and children a like . Hell i would even say that it was more geared towards adults because there were the ones with all the money . So being busy isn't an "excuse". Adults weren't less busy before . I feel like that's just a cop out answer.Now that isn't to say that you aren't busy , you're priority just isn't on completing games ( which is normal, a persons hobby should never be a priority).
i disagree, I think its a good analogy.Magix said:That is a horrible analogy. Books aren't interactive. You're not going to go back to your previous bookmark if you don't like the way you read that page.diligentscribbler said:there should never be any limit too when you can save.
if i couldn't put a book mark on any page in a book i would probably get pretty shitty.
same thing more or less.
Actually, save codes were used to overcome problems where it was not possible to write any save data. This was useful in the early NES era when there was no way for the console to write to the cartridge. I'm sure it existed before that as well on other platforms but as they predate my experience I can't speak with authority without research.Akytalusia said:Save Codes: real archaic stuff here, but honestly, these are pretty much the same as save spots, just unnecessarily complex.