One Last look at Mass Effect 3.

DioWallachia

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Suncatcher said:
ME3 functions, albeit not in the way you might have expected. If you got a defective disc or your download from origin wasn't actually a game? Yeah, that'd entitle you to a refund or replacement. But if that had happened, you wouldn't have gotten to the ending to complain about it. The fact that you bought a game with a shitty ending does not change the fact that it was a functional game, and you bought it. You aren't entitled to a refund any more than I would be if I bought a book and didn't like one of the characters, or bought a car without test driving it and discovered that the seats were uncomfortable, or bought a steak at a five-star restaurant and then decided I hated steak.

As for day one DLC? The current console market dictates that every game be exactly $60, and every DLC be exactly 10$, with very few exceptions. So if a publisher wants to sell a 70$ game that isn't PC exclusive, their only option is to cut a segment. They aren't robbing you, they're setting the price higher and giving you the option to play without certain elements to save money. You're the one who decides whether you want to buy a $70 game, or 86% of a $70 game, or save your money (and honestly the prothean asshole was a lot less that 14% of the game). Continuing to complain about being given that choice makes you sound more spoiled and entitled than any complaint about the ending could.

Finally, saying something happened once does not in any way qualify as proof that it should happen. I can prove people have punched police officers in the past, but that doesn't mean I'm entitled to a free swing.

Where you do have a case is if you claim false advertising. They said from the beginning that the choices you made over the whole series determine what happens in the ending, and that was simply false. But good luck getting anywhere with that.
But that DLC was SUPPOSED to be important to the plot:


So they say that all the essencials are in the game........except it isnt, and that was on the day before RELEASE. This people cant keep track of their own lies.

If they had say that they are indeed in a rush and that EA wanted the release to be on Chrismas (because as you know, all the GOOD games are released on Chrismas, right? just ask the makers of Pacman and ET for Atari 2600 and Sonic 2006) then do the episodic thing that even Half Life did (or Walking Dead). After all, they "promised" that only the 3rd game would you see the repercutions and branching of the storyline of all the series (because it would be a coding nightmare if they did it since the first game) they could have realeased the game in a functional state (from beggining to end, and not just what Asura's Wrath and FF XII-2 did with their endings cut to DLC) and then add expansion packs to fill the missing choices that werent taken into account.

But their constant delucion of "we believe we did nothing wrong. I dont see what are you talking about" only makes things worse.
 

DioWallachia

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Machine Man 1992 said:
So basically a company can fuck us however they want. Good, glad we cleared that up.

Because god forbid I-....

You know what? No, I'm not justifying this shit with an a counter argument. You are basically saying I should just lie down and accept video game corporations fucking me and everyone else up the ass. I refuse to accept that. There are certain lines you do NOT cross, and these companies have been hopscotching over that line like schoolchildren on summer break. If I have to be whiny and entitled to get the bloated piles of cartilage running this business to realize that I'm not taking anymore of their shit, FINE! I don't care what "horrible precedent" is being set, I don't care what "damage to the medium" it'll do, and I really don't care how "anti-art" it is. If I have to go through THIS to see their art, then that art ain't worth the trouble. The only damage this could do to the medium it the same kind of damage a wrecking ball does to a decaying, cockroach infested condemned building.
ITS TOO DANGEROUS TO GO ALONE!! TAKE THIS!!:

AT 10:55

NOW GO AND COUNTER-ARGUMENT! FOR GREAT JUSTICE!!
 

viranimus

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My final thoughts on it? Single greatest ending of any video game in all of existence as mass effect is the greatest story ever told to this generation. Its message succinctly clear though when the dust settled and the truth was revealed to the masses they chose rage and sought to crucify it. The people demanded it be recanted and when bioware gave a second look they reinforced the story by beating the people over the head with the message to which was still missed and left forever into history to be interpreted and deciphered. On multiple levels Bioware wrote and allowed themselves to be martyred for the sake of conveying a message that simply cannot be comprehended today. From very humble beginnings its idea was nurtured and shepherded across the acts of a message so subtle in its simplicity that its complexity was too blinding to see. It delivered its promises not on the level that the mob with stones demanded, but in a way that put the storys salvation ahead of the individual and in the process opened a new world for which the value of brotherhood can be paramount to the sins of such greed. It truly was a beautiful thing, like the warm fleeting afterglow of a candle that since has been blown out, leaving the yearning in darkness struggling to rekindle its light.
 

AD-Stu

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Y'know what's bothered me - the fact that the game has been out all this time, they've released multiplayer expansions and the extended cut and other patches and stuff, but at no point have they bothered to go back and fix some of the original bugs and issues. Things like the quest log, which is still horrible. Or the cut scene bugs where characters talk to empty camera shots, or try to twist their own heads off Exorcist-style to look in the right direction. The fact that the Omega DLC still had those issues is just poor form.
 

Machine Man 1992

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DioWallachia said:
http://kotaku.com/5968683/mob-blames-mass-effect-for-school-shooting-is-embarrassingly-wrong

And lets not forget that Bioware ISNT the only one manipulating the fans into thinking that they can deliver joy to their fans:
Remember when the Overthinker was good and useful? it didnt take long to fall from grace
My god... Th-that can't be the same Bob Chipman, can it?

Bob... I know we don't get along but, WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO YOU!?
 

DioWallachia

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viranimus said:
My final thoughts on it? Single greatest ending of any video game in all of existence as mass effect is the greatest story ever told to this generation. Its message succinctly clear though when the dust settled and the truth was revealed to the masses they chose rage and sought to crucify it. The people demanded it be recanted and when bioware gave a second look they reinforced the story by beating the people over the head with the message to which was still missed and left forever into history to be interpreted and deciphered. On multiple levels Bioware wrote and allowed themselves to be martyred for the sake of conveying a message that simply cannot be comprehended today. From very humble beginnings its idea was nurtured and shepherded across the acts of a message so subtle in its simplicity that its complexity was too blinding to see. It delivered its promises not on the level that the mob with stones demanded, but in a way that put the storys salvation ahead of the individual and in the process opened a new world for which the value of brotherhood can be paramount to the sins of such greed. It truly was a beautiful thing, like the warm fleeting afterglow of a candle that since has been blown out, leaving the yearning in darkness struggling to rekindle its light.
As someone that observed the ordeal without any emotion whatsoever and made the research to understand all the fiasco, i fail to see what messege could be better than "Unity Despite Difference" that was ALREADY on the games.

If there is a message that cant be comprehended (i doubt it, the kid was very clear and we understood what he wanted after following his logic chain...........and is for that very reason that we cant comprehend how he even managed to REACH that conclusion that uses Appeal to Probability, even when its supposed to be a perfect logical machine) then you must tell us. Otherwise you are just making shit up.

The writers didnt even bother to show up to explain it (even when they say they WANTED to talk with the fans after the EC) and as far as i know, there is no law in art that doesnt allow your art to be explained. So there is no reason to NOT know.

EDIT1: This is the second time you brought up art in this post:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.392512-I-liked-the-Mass-Effect-3-ending?page=5
Post 165
And you have to yet provide a decent answer.
 

DioWallachia

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AD-Stu said:
Y'know what's bothered me - the fact that the game has been out all this time, they've released multiplayer expansions and the extended cut and other patches and stuff, but at no point have they bothered to go back and fix some of the original bugs and issues. Things like the quest log, which is still horrible. Or the cut scene bugs where characters talk to empty camera shots, or try to twist their own heads off Exorcist-style to look in the right direction. The fact that the Omega DLC still had those issues is just poor form.
Its not a bug, its a feature!! Its clearly an homage to the Exorcist. I am sorry that its TOO DEEP 4 YOU BRO.

NO WAIT!! its a social commentary on Fatalism, and how videogame bugs are inevitable!!

BIOWARE!! YOU MAGNIFICIENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOOOOOOOK!!

....... and it sucked.
 

DioWallachia

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Machine Man 1992 said:
My god... Th-that can't be the same Bob Chipman, can it?

Bob... I know we don't get along but, WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO YOU!?
Heavens to Metroid happened. Controversial opinions = add revenue + a fanbase that will protect him from ALL criticism because he was sooooooooooo good in the past, he couldnt possibly have fallen.......has he? NO IT ISNT!! clearly everyone else is wrong. That is the only logical conclusion.

Sounds like the argument that fans of BW use "Bioware ALWAYS make good games with good stories from a long time ago. So logically, Dragon Age 2 and ME3 ALSO had good writing and we just dont get it. Clearly, we are in the wrong here"
 

DioWallachia

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Machine Man 1992 said:
DioWallachia

I like you man.
Dude, make the comment bigger or you are going to get banned or suspended. They dont like short things here...apparently.
 

Suncatcher

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Machine Man 1992 said:
So basically a company can fuck us however they want. Good, glad we cleared that up.

Because god forbid I-....

You know what? No, I'm not justifying this shit with an a counter argument. You are basically saying I should just lie down and accept video game corporations fucking me and everyone else up the ass. I refuse to accept that. There are certain lines you do NOT cross, and these companies have been hopscotching over that line like schoolchildren on summer break. If I have to be whiny and entitled to get the bloated piles of cartilage running this business to realize that I'm not taking anymore of their shit, FINE! I don't care what "horrible precedent" is being set, I don't care what "damage to the medium" it'll do, and I really don't care how "anti-art" it is. If I have to go through THIS to see their art, then that art ain't worth the trouble. The only damage this could do to the medium it the same kind of damage a wrecking ball does to a decaying, cockroach infested condemned building.
Legally, they did nothing wrong outside of possibly the advertisements, so you have no legal claim to the money you gave them. What you can do is never give EA money again, as I plan to, and maybe try to sell your copy of the game for whatever fraction of its original price you can get. I wish that they would fix the game, "artistic integrity" be damned (as if they didn't throw that out already), but I have no way to force them to do so, and the money that has been spent is gone. When a company acts like assholes and sells shitty product, but don't break any laws to do it, all you can do is cease to be their customer and warn off others, until they stop making money and die naturally.


DioWallachia said:
But that DLC was SUPPOSED to be important to the plot:

So they say that all the essencials are in the game........except it isnt, and that was on the day before RELEASE. This people cant keep track of their own lies.

If they had say that they are indeed in a rush and that EA wanted the release to be on Chrismas (because as you know, all the GOOD games are released on Chrismas, right? just ask the makers of Pacman and ET for Atari 2600 and Sonic 2006) then do the episodic thing that even Half Life did (or Walking Dead). After all, they "promised" that only the 3rd game would you see the repercutions and branching of the storyline of all the series (because it would be a coding nightmare if they did it since the first game) they could have realeased the game in a functional state (from beggining to end, and not just what Asura's Wrath and FF XII-2 did with their endings cut to DLC) and then add expansion packs to fill the missing choices that werent taken into account.

But their constant delucion of "we believe we did nothing wrong. I dont see what are you talking about" only makes things worse.
I'll level with you: I never bought the DLC. I planned to play through the vanilla game once, then get the add-ons for further playthroughs. And after the ending, I had no desire to play through again or give EA any money ever. But I saw nothing missing. So the prothean asshole dlc wasn't an integral part of the game, it was just an add-on that I would have paid for if I had been willing remain a customer of EA or continue paying Mass Effect releases. The fact that it came out the same day as the main game does not make it worth more or less than the same add-on would be a month or a year later, and the advertisements claiming it was a vital part of the experience are pretty much equivalent to the ads saying that a plasma tv is a vital part of the football experience, or that tv football is a vital part of the life experience.

Other than that I agree with everything you said.
 

DioWallachia

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Machine Man 1992 said:
DioWallachia

I like you man.
Also, like i said before, thanks to such pathetic attempts at reasoning on the Heavens To Metroid video, we had the Tv Tropes Liveblog of Korval:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/lb_i.php?lb_id=13373815860B43920100&i_id=13373815860I43921400&p=1

And several more videos discusing the subject in detail:

 

SomebodyNowhere

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I think the whole fiasco was overblown and not really necessary. For me the game was a great experience with a less than great ending(the extended endings improved things). Bioware didn't need to adjust the endings, but I'm happy they did.
I still play the multiplayer during the weekend operations and will continue to do so.
 

Maze1125

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Politeia said:
Maze1125 said:
Maybe not in America.
Other counties, on the other hand, have a little thing called "Consumer Rights".
You're telling me that there are nations out there who have legislated that you can return an opened, used product at any time, for any reason and expect a full-refund? Who? What law? When was it passed? Have the courts ruled on it? Have retailers gone out of business? I cannot imagine such a system where you can return a used product after a period of several weeks for a full-refund. The economics of it are so staggeringly stupid.
You're adding extra clauses there that were not included before.

Anyway, yes, there are countries that guarantee the right to return a product with-in a specified time-frame for a full refund provided it is still in a "like-new" condition.
And, no, no-one undeserving has gone out of business due to that because, shock horror, when most people buy a product, they buy it with the intent to keep it.
 

Madkipz

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Machine Man 1992 said:
What did you think of this whole fiasco? If you could go back and change something, what would it be? Were Bioware right to compromise and just extend the endings, or are they scum who don't really care about their fans? Did EA have anything to do with it? Do you have your own problems with the game? I want to know..
I was there. The day the veneer of improved consumer friendliness fell and EA got promoted to the most evil company of video gaming to the point of making good old Activision seem like a lesser evil.

If I could go back and change something, I`d probably just go back and not buy any of Bioware`s "choose your own adventure" games. Even if it is hard to find a competitor that has any sort of class / taste regarding having a female protagonist option.

A personal nitpick of mine is that this was supposedly Shepards story, rather than simply using Shepard as a tool to show off the world. As for EA, well, they probably set a deadline, but the fault lies with Bioware. You cannot blame EA for wanting to see a game published at a date. It is always up to the project lead to determine whether it is feasible, and whatnot.

I brought it on faith basically, and never again. Me3 was "Gullible consumer" me finished, and I`m thankful for the lessons the debacle taught me. 1) Don`t buy into hype/ interviews/marketing. 2) Find reviewers you can "trust", and 3) Never preorder a game. Instead wait for a sale down the line when the game is relatively more stable (fixed bugs), and has more content (DLC`s and expansions) while savouring the variety of games you already have.
 

Tomeran

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I am in disagreement. I wouldnt name ME3 GOTY, it had a fair few flaws, but I wouldnt dream of calling it terrible.
I guess its an "each to their own"-scenario, like so much is. I almost disagree with everything the OP lists in the first post.

- The crucible - granted, shoehorned into the ending and its execution was terrible, I'll agree to that this much.

- Cerberus was always evil, their methods were always questionable, I hated having to be FORCED to work for/with them in ME2 and it was fairly easy to determine then that Cerberus was going down the path it was going, especielly at ME2's ending. Hell anyone even remotely familiar with indoctrination should probably have seen TIM's fate coming. And that's my big problem with the Cerberus situation: It was too predictable. So probably the direct opposite of what the OP thinks.

- Im not sure what you mean TIM is detrimental to the plot, he acts as a "variation enemy" in addition to the reapers and imo keep things interesting. At worst to me it may seem "small potatoes" to battle some rogue human organisation when the fleets of galactic annihilation squid synths are roaming around, but I suppose indotrination is the real enemy there.

- Liara actually has a fairly well-described transition from the innocent scientist to the cold shadow broker. There's a fair few conversations and material covering this, mostly because she's the "writers pet" and everything. I wouldnt call her transition sudden or ill-described, she's not Anakin.

- I'll agree to a certain extent of the "secondary" squad mates given less importance. And with "secondary" I mean everyone not part of your crew in ME3. The fact that very few except the "good oldies" of the ME2 crew came back is something I never really had much of a personal problem with because I like Garrus, Liara, Tali and Kaidan/Ashley more then any of the other crew members, perhaps as a result of ME1 nostalgia. Still I can completly understand that people's attachments to these ME2 crewmembers being ignored and them being sidelined to the extent they were was upsetting. I for example really liked Zaeed, and he was given like 10 lines of dialouge in entire ME3.

- There are few things I could disagree more on however then the gameplay in ME3 being shitty. ME1's gameplay was, imo, very flawed, ME2's was refined but oh so VERY far from perfection. ME3's gameplay to me was outright bloody excellent. Every fight was entertaining, the mechanics are well done and well balanced, there IS variation(especielly if you, you know, take your own initiatives to try different methods, skills and weapons rather then run around with that certain rifle nonstop) and the action was intense. The combination of abilities and weapons was flawlessly done.
Thank GOD for no vehicles, because that was imo the friggin' achilles heel nightmare of the ME series, Thank GOD for no hacking minigames as that was imo just bloody annoying and -absolutly- eliminated the pacing of the game. Like they said in the LOTSB DLC in ME2: "Remember when you could just slap omnigel on everything? Man those security upgrades made a lot of people unhappy."

- As for the sidequests: I loved the progress from "Absolutly useless bloody sidequests about finding information for some Krogan if there are fish in the presidium lakes" to the standard "find various object of importance that somehow ends up ending the crucible project or aid your fleet strength". In ME3, almost every sidequest is relevant to the war effort and the crucible project, and that is a massive improvement imo. Most of these quests are streamlined and I dont mind that. The "big" side quests(Examples: Rachni Queen, Tuchanka Bomb, Grissom Academy, Cerberus Scientists etc etc) are also made MUCH better and are far more fun to play then the crap side missions of ME2. Yes im especielly thinking about such missions as "keep feeding that energy battery to the broken heavy mech for 5000 minerals" or "Lets run around and fight mercs because hey, mercs are bad! Screw our primary mission."
In ME2 almost every sidemission felt like taking a massive detour from what Shep's actually suppose to do. In ME3, it doesnt.


In almost every way but the ending and the treatment of "secondary" crew members, I found ME3 an improvement to ME2 and ME1. The question on my mind has more been "Was ME3 the best in the series?" rather then "Was ME3 shit?" Because imo ME3 was -definetly- not shit.

I agreed and even joined in on some of the outrage of ME3 when it was fresh off the shelves. I too was fairly upset at the complete crap of an ending, but it balanced out because the extended ending was released FOR FREE. It didnt solve all of the ME3 ending issues, but it solved enough for me to get the "terribad" stamp rubbed off it. Seeing that this 1% of the game was the big stain on an otherwise almost flawless masterpiece, I was content.

Add to this ME3s excellent and VERY entertaining multiplayer. Only bad thing about is that it used to(but not anymore) be required to get the best ending possible for ME3 SP campaign(even if you only needed to play like...3-5 games to get it). ME3's multiplayer added hours upon hours of entertaining gameplay that is absolutly awesome with friends, and ontop of this, there are constant big FREE dlc released for the ME3 multiplayer. Singleplayer may be ME3's soul, but I'll be damned if the multiplayer hasnt raised ME3s bar a bit higher because of being able to experience its highly entertaining gameplay with friends.

In the end, despite all its shortcomings, I'll say ME3 was one of the better game experiences I've had in 2012. Perhaps not a massive achievement seeing as there's been a lot of dissapointing titles this year, but I found Bioware redeemed and improved their title enough for me to continue loving the franchise.


With all this being said, I wont question or hate or argue over why some people dislike ME3 so much, because its the ENDING to one of the most personal and interesting game series there has ever been(And im not counting ME4 into this equation until more information is released on that). I dont think it would've mattered if the game was near perfect, because it has that nature about it, that personal nature, that makes everyone have a different experience with a different set of expectations and how they thought things would/should end up. ME3 lined up well enough for me, it didnt for a fair few others.
I found 99% of the experience perfect and as they say: You cant please everyone.

I cant help but wonder however, if we'd still be having these countless ME3 debates about how the entire game sucked etc if they hadnt botched the ending.
 

DioWallachia

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Madkipz said:
As for EA, well, they probably set a deadline, but the fault lies with Bioware. You cannot blame EA for wanting to see a game published at a date. It is always up to the project lead to determine whether it is feasible, and whatnot.
Lets suppose for a moment that you had the obligation of making that game in a span of 2 years. Remember, ME1 was released in 2007, then at 2010 ME2 came out (3 years later), but ME3 was set to be released at 2012 (2 years). AND this is the 3rd and final part of the trilogy that it was SUPPOSED to be the ONLY game that had a branching storyline from this point (because if done since day 1 on ME1, it would be a coding nightmare) up to 16 possible endings.

All that in 2 YEARS when not even in 3 they managed to do that on ME2.

You still think that BW is at fault for the short release date?
 

Uszi

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So I'm still working on reading the 10 pages, but I wanted to float my thoughts after the initial read through.

I was one of the people who were pissed off initially, who participated in the various Hold The Line protests and activities on the Bioware Social Network. Donated to the Child's Play Charity, donated to send Bioware the three colored cupcakes, participated in discussions, etc.

Then, the Extended Cut DLC came out. And it mollified enough people that there was no longer an organized resistance, and the issue died. Even before it came out. The announcement of the Extended Cut satisfied enough people that the issue was settled.

Now I'm just done with Mass Effect.

What I mean is, I was one of those hard core Mass Effect fans who bought every single last piece of DLC, who had played each of the classes all the way through, who went into Mass Effect 3 with a pantheon of save files with subtle differences in choices just to see what would happen in Mass Effect 3, I mean hundreds of hours of characters who did the whole trip Mass Effect 1 through Mass Effect 2... And now I haven't played it since April.

I haven't been back. I haven't downloaded any ME3 DLC, or anything. It's just dead. I feel nothing for that game that I used to feel before. I'm not like, saying that I refuse to buy DLC as a protest or anything---there's nothing to protest. I just don't want to buy it. It's a product I no longer have interest in. It's like I could buy the Omega DLC, and I could also learn to play the accordion, but I have no interest in doing either thing.

It's just, like, I don't play NHL games. And now I no longer play Mass Effect Games.