I've got mixed feelings on the whole tokenism debate. On the one hand, I would like to see more fleshing out of a character dealing with their sexuality. On the other hand...do they always need to? I mean there are black characters in fighting games and they don't exactly flesh out their race and any experiences related to their race. Why not just let them have a gay character who just happens to be gay, end of story? We have plenty of characters who just happen to be heterosexual, end of story, why not the other way around?
That's the thing about tokenism though, people have started to equate it with things that are pretty plainly not tokenism. In this case, if Jin was just a "gay" re-skin of another character who got none of the same backstory treatment and the like, that would be tokenism. Take Balrog from Street Fighter. He's a unique character with his own moveset, his own story and his own character design. Now imagine if Balrog was a black re-skin of Ryu with maybe a tiny adjustment to his moveset, no backstory or given motivation of his own. That would be tokensim. Jin is given the same treatment as the other characters, so even if his sexual orientation is only a blurb that hardly comes up, he isn't a "token-gay" he's just another character who happens to be gay.
I've got mixed feelings on the whole tokenism debate. On the one hand, I would like to see more fleshing out of a character dealing with their sexuality. On the other hand...do they always need to? I mean there are black characters in fighting games and they don't exactly flesh out their race and any experiences related to their race. Why not just let them have a gay character who just happens to be gay, end of story? We have plenty of characters who just happen to be heterosexual, end of story, why not the other way around?
That's the thing about tokenism though, people have started to equate it with things that are pretty plainly not tokenism. In this case, if Jin was just a "gay" re-skin of another character who got none of the same backstory treatment and the like, that would be tokenism. Take Balrog from Street Fighter. He's a unique character with his own moveset, his own story and his own character design. Now imagine if Balrog was a black re-skin of Ryu with maybe a tiny adjustment to his moveset, no backstory or given motivation of his own. That would be tokensim. Jin is given the same treatment as the other characters, so even if his sexual orientation is only a blurb that hardly comes up, he isn't a "token-gay" he's just another character who happens to be gay.
I'm a little hesitant to say this but I feel like I lot of the pushback against him that I'm seeing on the web is the result of something I like to call "Diet-homophobia". People who don't say that they're homophobic, but they don't want it "shoved down their throats". Reminds me of when there was a Borderlands 2 thread way back when and people said that they were getting homosexuality shoved down their throats because Sir Hammerlock off handily mentioned that he had an ex-boyfriend. Either that or it was just tokenism.
I've got mixed feelings on the whole tokenism debate. On the one hand, I would like to see more fleshing out of a character dealing with their sexuality. On the other hand...do they always need to? I mean there are black characters in fighting games and they don't exactly flesh out their race and any experiences related to their race. Why not just let them have a gay character who just happens to be gay, end of story? We have plenty of characters who just happen to be heterosexual, end of story, why not the other way around?
That's the thing about tokenism though, people have started to equate it with things that are pretty plainly not tokenism. In this case, if Jin was just a "gay" re-skin of another character who got none of the same backstory treatment and the like, that would be tokenism. Take Balrog from Street Fighter. He's a unique character with his own moveset, his own story and his own character design. Now imagine if Balrog was a black re-skin of Ryu with maybe a tiny adjustment to his moveset, no backstory or given motivation of his own. That would be tokensim. Jin is given the same treatment as the other characters, so even if his sexual orientation is only a blurb that hardly comes up, he isn't a "token-gay" he's just another character who happens to be gay.
I'm a little hesitant to say this but I feel like I lot of the pushback against him that I'm seeing on the web is the result of something I like to call "Diet-homophobia". People who don't say that they're homophobic, but they don't want it "shoved down their throats". Reminds me of when there was a Borderlands 2 thread way back when and people said that they were getting homosexuality shoved down their throats because Sir Hammerlock off handily mentioned that he had an ex-boyfriend. Either that or it was just tokenism.
Well I'm not huge on the term "homophobia" in most senses anyway, but that's a semantic quibble. I agree with the heart of what you're saying here. The notion of, "Gay people are fine, I just don't ever want to have to see them represented in anything!" smacks of bigotry in the same way, "Black people are fine, I just don't want one of them living next to me. " does. What galls me are those that use that, "shoved down our throats" line in the case of homosexual imagery/ story but then go on to defend the right of artists to sexy up female characters.
I for one stand on the, "Let the artist do what they want side." Sexy female character? Awesome, love me some sexy female characters! Character who bangs on about being gay every ten seconds? Awesome, bet someone's really into that too! Character who's sexuality is totally unimportant and isn't even mentioned? Awesome, get to make up whatever I want to in my head! I support these and every shade in between.
Wait wait wait, a gay character in a game about you pummeling someone's face in? Unless it's going to have A. a romance sub plot, B. a sex scene or C. the ability to use my dick as a weapon this is nonsensical. Wait, Mortal Kombat had a story? Colour me surprised.
I was under the impression that the whole "having gay characters" in a game was meant to be a minor thing, easter egg levels even. How often does sexuality come up in most video games anyway? This really does feel like shoe-horning racially diverse characters in at the last second to sell more copies, fucking failing industry.
Guilty gear. venom. Comon guys. Gay people have been in videogames a long time. This isn't news. I'm not say anymore about the subject because i know how quote happy people are.
Maybe because we already know Guilty Gear is from Japan, the most people said "ehhh, whatever, I saw worst from Japan". Also Vemon isn't only gay, but also a children lover [if I remember right].
What would happen if you had this kind of character in MK? CHAOS!!!!!! RAGEEEEE!!!!!! CCCOOOMMEENTSSSSS!!!!! TTHHHRREEEAAADDSSSS!!!!!!
Pssst. Every time a character's main motivation is "MY WIFE IS DEAD" that's their sexuality coming up as a central character trait. That literally happens several times in the series we're talking about right now.
Lufia Erim said:
SweetShark said:
Lufia Erim said:
Guilty gear. venom. Comon guys. Gay people have been in videogames a long time. This isn't news. I'm not say anymore about the subject because i know how quote happy people are.
Maybe because we already know Guilty Gear is from Japan, the most people said "ehhh, whatever, I saw worst from Japan". Also Vemon isn't only gay, but also a children lover [if I remember right].
What would happen if you had this kind of character in MK? CHAOS!!!!!! RAGEEEEE!!!!!! CCCOOOMMEENTSSSSS!!!!! TTHHHRREEEAAADDSSSS!!!!!!
Japan is WAY ahead of us on this shit, even if some of their portrayals can be a bit insensitive. One of the benefits of more diverse casts is that your minority casts aren't put under the same level of scrutiny. You avoid the Smurfette problem.
Pssst. Every time a character's main motivation is "MY WIFE IS DEAD" that's their sexuality coming up as a central character trait. That literally happens several times in the series we're talking about right now.
"My wife is dead" isn't a sexuality. I've even known gay guys to assume the term of wife and proudly so (albeit I've heard others that I don't personally know quite definitely against the maintaining of the term and I get why).
I also seem to remember a game I played where a character's "wife" that was kidnapped ended up being some sort of sheep.
EDIT: By sexuality are we talking primarily orientation or just issues pertaining to "sex partners" in general?
Suprised theres less focus on the Vastly improved female character designs. Sonya actually looks like special forces now rather than army costumed hooker.
Don't be silly, female character designs is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO last year. Though I could've done without carapace boobs D'Vorah, a bit unnecessary. But I will say I sorta liked the older Sonya design if only because nearly everyone else in the game that wasn't a ninja was in varying degrees of undress and how over-the-top the series is in general.
Honestly I'm not sure I can buy the confrim myself. Not because he's gay, no, just that it took a dev outside of the game to confirm it, because I figured he was
Cassie since they have a bit of a moment near the end of the story mode at the temple, though that could have been confused because of the Jacqui/Takeda pairing built up most of it.
It just seems a bit like a cop-out. Like they can take it back and say it was never in the game to begin with if it got bad press and that all the hints were just you projecting your own wants onto the character. I mean, I actually have emotions towards Kung Jin, mostly because of how abominably STUPID and impulsive he is most of the story mode, so he's already better than most other gays Western devs have done, but it's not really confirmed in-universe. Just a dropped hint that be taken to mean a couple of things.
But, if we're talking about characters in this thread now, I've got to say that Cassie has got to be the blandest character. She's got nothing going for her other than being Sonya and Johnny's kid, who both have better scenes and lines than her, despite the story being pretty centered around her team. Her lines are...bad(and not in a so bad it's Cage way). And her moveset and animations are so boring, though she does have one of the best Fatalities in the game.
Edit: Also, I'm surprised people play the game for the story mode, the only thing that makes them somewhat interesting is the killing off of characters, everything else is honestly just par for the course, Outworld's got silly shit going down, Raiden brings everyone in, crap happens, boom, everything's good again.
Though I will admit the after-credits scene is pretty good in that it opens up alot of opportunities.
... SERIOUSLY!??, people are getting worked up for this incredibly subtle moment!??, it's not like he's doing a Blowjobtality or something, it's just heavily implied!, even Raiden himself aknowdeleges that that really doesn't define who he is!
In addition to resembling a blonde version of Mercury, some of Eagle's voice clips are remniscent of him (such as "the show must go on" and "no time for losers"). This has lead to speculation that since Mercury was homosexual, Eagle is as well. This is backed up by several of his Japanese winquotes, which seem to indicate that he is homosexual.
While it was recton'd into his back story only in CvS2 back in 2000, it still means that Street Fighter had a homosexual character in it before either Mortal Kombat even existed! (Hell, even before Zangief!)
I really fail to see what the big deal is about MK having a gay guy, they bleed the same as straight people
I have similar viewpoints. Artists should be allowed to do what they want. Fans have the right to criticize them, but unless the artist agrees that the criticism is right, they shouldn't be under any obligation to change it. I respect artists that stand by their work. Even if I don't like the work. I don't play Mortal Kombat because I don't like the borderline fetishistic approach to violence mixed with skimpy clothing, it makes me feel uncomfortable (That and I suck at fighting games and don't have the patience to memorize combos. Plus a lack of people to play them with.) but hey I respect the people who make Mortal Kombat (for the most part. Paying for fatalities, the fuck?) because they do make some damn cool designs. Heck, maybe I'll get over my uncomfortableness just so I can play the game as the badass that is Scorpion.
Guilty gear. venom. Comon guys. Gay people have been in videogames a long time. This isn't news. I'm not say anymore about the subject because i know how quote happy people are.
Maybe because we already know Guilty Gear is from Japan, the most people said "ehhh, whatever, I saw worst from Japan". Also Vemon isn't only gay, but also a children lover [if I remember right].
What would happen if you had this kind of character in MK? CHAOS!!!!!! RAGEEEEE!!!!!! CCCOOOMMEENTSSSSS!!!!! TTHHHRREEEAAADDSSSS!!!!!!
In addition to resembling a blonde version of Mercury, some of Eagle's voice clips are remniscent of him (such as "the show must go on" and "no time for losers"). This has lead to speculation that since Mercury was homosexual, Eagle is as well. This is backed up by several of his Japanese winquotes, which seem to indicate that he is homosexual.
While it was recton'd into his back story only in CvS2 back in 2000, it still means that Street Fighter had a homosexual character in it before either Mortal Kombat even existed! (Hell, even before Zangief!)
I really fail to see what the big deal is about MK having a gay guy, they bleed the same as straight people
Again, in Japan they react differently. Also their whole culture in deep inside the taboos already, so no a shocking factor for them if they see a gay character.
Not sure if you really care, but Eagle [http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Eagle] was actually the first homosexual in Street Fighter, seeing how he appeared in Street Fighter 1, before Zangief was even created!.
Just a pointless factoid I had
I've got mixed feelings on the whole tokenism debate. On the one hand, I would like to see more fleshing out of a character dealing with their sexuality. On the other hand...do they always need to? I mean there are black characters in fighting games and they don't exactly flesh out their race and any experiences related to their race. Why not just let them have a gay character who just happens to be gay, end of story? We have plenty of characters who just happen to be heterosexual, end of story, why not the other way around?
This is a thing now? Trumpeting a trait of a character that doesn't really apply to gameplay in the grand scheme of things? Well, La-de-FREAKING-DA! So he's gay; I don't see how that's relevant in a game of bare-handed dismemberment. Did they throw a big hissy fit when Jax was introduced in MK II as the series' first black guy? I don't remember, so no. It's like making a new friend, who happens to be gay. It's who they are as a person that should matter, not JUST because they're gay. Like that time on Community where Britta thought she made a lesbian friend, who was actually straight and she thought Britta was gay.
I have similar viewpoints. Artists should be allowed to do what they want. Fans have the right to criticize them, but unless the artist agrees that the criticism is right, they shouldn't be under any obligation to change it. I respect artists that stand by their work. Even if I don't like the work. I don't play Mortal Kombat because I don't like the borderline fetishistic approach to violence mixed with skimpy clothing, it makes me feel uncomfortable (That and I suck at fighting games and don't have the patience to memorize combos. Plus a lack of people to play them with.) but hey I respect the people who make Mortal Kombat (for the most part. Paying for fatalities, the fuck?) because they do make some damn cool designs. Heck, maybe I'll get over my uncomfortableness just so I can play the game as the badass that is Scorpion.
I like that viewpoint because I think it's better for everyone. I honestly believe that if games are more inclusive, it's not just good for women or people of color or homosexuals, it's good for straight white men who like breasts too. If games are inclusive for everyone, then everyone gets something they enjoy. I don't think we'd hear as much about the "problematic" nature of Kitana's outfit if you've got a nice attractive guy for straight women to enjoy, or a nice looking gay guy for homosexual men to enjoy. The more everyone's tastes are met, the less reason anyone has to complain that the industry needs to change. Whether you ever get to enjoy Mortal Kombat, I for one hope there's a game for you, me and everyone to enjoy, and I can't see why everyone doesn't want that too.
Again, in Japan they react differently. Also their whole culture in deep inside the taboos already, so no a shocking factor for them if they see a gay character.
Well, point I was making was: This isn't really the earth shattering news everyone things it is. Fighting games are a lot more diverse then people would think.
"ERMUHGADDD! MK HAS TEH GAY!"
"Yeah, and Street Fighter technically had it since the '80s, get over it."
Everyone just screaming from the hilltops about how much of a big deal it is, I mean, sure, you could make the case that it's because NRS is a western studio, but hell, even SNK's King of Fighters has 2 Bi-sexual fighters (Mature and Seth) on the roster since at least 1999, even going so far as to flirt with their rivals before a fight.
Here, they just imply that he's gay and suddenly the whole world is on fire.
Just really irks me how differently some people react to something that's actually been common in this type of games :/
Not mad, just confused as to why it was in a fighting game, where most players don't give a toss about "story" as long as they get to kick the crap out of each other. My attitude isn't "HOW DARE THEY?! ITS RIUNED FOREVER BWAAAAAHHHHHH", but "yeah, and? If he has some special moves that let me whoop ass, I'm cool."
Not mad, just confused as to why it was in a fighting game, where most players don't give a toss about "story" as long as they get to kick the crap out of each other. My attitude isn't "HOW DARE THEY?! ITS RIUNED FOREVER BWAAAAAHHHHHH", but "yeah, and? If he has some special moves that let me whoop ass, I'm cool."
MK9 and X actually have pretty in-depth story modes that were obviously a big focus for the developers. A lot like Injustice. The games aren't really "competitive" due to a fuck ton of balance issues, so a lot of players play them purely for the story.
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