Over 1,800 Gaming Professionals Condemn Hate Speech in Open Letter

[anthony87]

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That you Boudica?

How do you always spot this? XD


Do you have Boudica radar or something? Do your Boudica senses get all tingly whenever you see a suspect alt-account?

I'm always really oblivious to this kind of thing. She could come back with the name Boudico or Boudica2 and I probably still wouldn't cop that it's the same person.

It's the posting style. Not talking about the topic at hand, cherry picking like some obsessive compulsive harvester, constantly referencing things (In this case dictionaries). It all just kinda stands out to me.

Either that or I'm actually just a massive creep ^_^

 

[Eve Charm]

Deep down, we all know no guy would get to raise $160,000+ to make a series of Youtube videos about one cultural aspect of games or another.

The only reason she got all that money and attention was because of the huge amount of misogyny she received merely for being a woman, talking about feminism in videogames. The hatred happened before 'the bar was lowered'. You've got cause and effect the wrong way round.

The way I see it, this is what happens the vast majority of the time with these things. The 'bar being lowered' is a response to misogyny, not the other way round.

merely for being a woman, Nope! You don't have to be a Woman, or even a Feminist to be hated by the internet when you start contending and insulting people's hobbies on the internet. Being a woman merely meant people could use insults about her being a woman in the ways of bashing and attacking her character. Jack Thompson, a male, Received the same hatred and threats ((Even the sexual ones)) For talking out about GTA and gaming violence. It doesn't matter what gender, sexuality or race you are when you kick the hornets nest, your going to get the same reaction.

 

[Six Ways]

Deep down, we all know no guy would get to raise $160,000+ to make a series of Youtube videos about one cultural aspect of games or another.

The only reason she got all that money and attention was because of the huge amount of misogyny she received merely for being a woman, talking about feminism in videogames. The hatred happened before 'the bar was lowered'. You've got cause and effect the wrong way round.

The way I see it, this is what happens the vast majority of the time with these things. The 'bar being lowered' is a response to misogyny, not the other way round.

merely for being a woman, Nope! You don't have to be a Woman, or even a Feminist to be hated by the internet when you start contending and insulting people's hobbies on the internet. Being a woman merely meant people could use insults about her being a woman in the ways of bashing and attacking her character. Jack Thompson, a male, Received the same hatred and threats ((Even the sexual ones)) For talking out about GTA and gaming violence. It doesn't matter what gender, sexuality or race you are when you kick the hornets nest, your going to get the same reaction.

I really wish people would stop comparing Anita Sarkeesian to Jack Thompson. There should be a videogames version of Godwin's Law for that guy.

The reason Jack Thompson got so much hate was because he was literally trying to destroy videogames. He was openly calling for actual censorship. He cannot be used as an example of 'haters gonna hate any old thing', because he was not 'any old thing'.

If a white male had run the same kickstarter as Sarkeesian, he would not have been treated like Sarkeesian was treated.

 

[Darkmantle]

Deep down, we all know no guy would get to raise $160,000+ to make a series of Youtube videos about one cultural aspect of games or another.

The only reason she got all that money and attention was because of the huge amount of misogyny she received merely for being a woman, talking about feminism in videogames. The hatred happened before 'the bar was lowered'. You've got cause and effect the wrong way round.

The way I see it, this is what happens the vast majority of the time with these things. The 'bar being lowered' is a response to misogyny, not the other way round.

merely for being a woman, Nope! You don't have to be a Woman, or even a Feminist to be hated by the internet when you start contending and insulting people's hobbies on the internet. Being a woman merely meant people could use insults about her being a woman in the ways of bashing and attacking her character. Jack Thompson, a male, Received the same hatred and threats ((Even the sexual ones)) For talking out about GTA and gaming violence. It doesn't matter what gender, sexuality or race you are when you kick the hornets nest, your going to get the same reaction.

I really wish people would stop comparing Anita Sarkeesian to Jack Thompson. There should be a videogames version of Godwin's Law for that guy.

The reason Jack Thompson got so much hate was because he was literally trying to destroy videogames. He was openly calling for actual censorship. He cannot be used as an example of 'haters gonna hate any old thing', because he was not 'any old thing'.

If a white male had run the same kickstarter as Sarkeesian, he would not have been treated like Sarkeesian was treated.

Yes he can be used as an example. All the things that Anita says proves how misogynistic the gamer community is for doing to her, were done to Jack Thompson. Put in a video game to get beat up, check. Harassed, check. Threatened, sexual and death variety, check.

So when it happens to Jack it's because he's a Dbag, but when it happens to Anita it's proof of sexism, yeah, that's some double standards right there.


But more on the substance, how is Anita not Similar to Jack? Her contention is that broad swaths of story-telling devices are inherently evil and sexist, and should never be used, and anyone who uses them hates women (that's what misogynist means after all). Can you tell me that in her perfect world, games would be made that have those "tropes"? It may not be government censorship, but she wants the community and developers to censer themselves, it's shaming censorship.

And more to the point, her whole argument is based on her belief that what you do in a video game, affects what you do in real life. How is that at all different from what Jack believes? He thinks video game violence causes real violence, she thinks video game "sexism" causes real sexism.

In my view, either she is wrong and video games dont affect you that way, or she is right and Jack Thompson is unfairly maligned.

 

[Something Amyss]

But more on the substance, how is Anita not Similar to Jack? Her contention is that broad swaths of story-telling devices are inherently evil1 and sexist, and should never be used2, and anyone who uses them hates women2 (that's what misogynist means after all).

That's three tings wrong in a single sentence. None of these are claims by Anita. Also, you may want to look up the concept of misogyny again, because it doesn't mandate hating women.

If you insert these things that Anita didn't said into the argument and ignore that misogyny covers a broad range of things, yes, she's just like Jack Thompson. But we're not really talking about Anita Sarkeesian anymore.

 

[Darkmantle]

But more on the substance, how is Anita not Similar to Jack? Her contention is that broad swaths of story-telling devices are inherently evil1 and sexist, and should never be used2, and anyone who uses them hates women2 (that's what misogynist means after all).

That's three tings wrong in a single sentence. None of these are claims by Anita. Also, you may want to look up the concept of misogyny again, because it doesn't mandate hating women.

If you insert these things that Anita didn't said into the argument and ignore that misogyny covers a broad range of things, yes, she's just like Jack Thompson. But we're not really talking about Anita Sarkeesian anymore.

"Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

"Misogyny definition, hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. "
dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny

"Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women"
www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/misogyny

oh and the oxford dictionary link has the origin of the word too.
"mid 17th century: from Greek misos 'hatred' + gunē 'woman'."

Misogyny is the hatred of women, plan and simple. Many times in her own videos she defines these tropes as deeply misogynistic. She is very nearly explicit in saying that the people who use those tropes are misogynists themselves, I believe the way she phrases it is something like "steeped in the culture of misogyny".

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

PS: as I said to another user earlier in the thread, I love how internet activism loves to change the definitions of words like racism and misogyny, then blame everyone else for not knowing the new made up definitions. Little pet peeve of mine

 

[Six Ways]

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

Except, you know, for her repeated and explicit statements to the exact contrary.

 

[Darkmantle]

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

Except, you know, for her repeated and explicit statements to the exact contrary.

She has no trouble calling all manner of people misogynists. I fail to see where she has said the exact opposite.

 

[ScorpionWasp]

Bottom line, if someone offered me $160,000, fame, influence, to endure the impotent online rage of anonymous people making puerile remarks about my genitals and shit like that, and to make a relatively inexpensive (for reference, look at the quality and volume of content someone like James Rolfe (A.K.A Angry Videogame Nerd) produces entirely *for free*) videos, I'd need approximately 0.2 seconds to say "yes, oh yes, please oppress me like that!"

 

[Six Ways]

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

Except, you know, for her repeated and explicit statements to the exact contrary.

She has no trouble calling all manner of people misogynists. I fail to see where she has said the exact opposite.

In, like, every video.

 

[Something Amyss]

"Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

"Misogyny definition, hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. "
dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny

"Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women"
www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/misogyny

oh and the oxford dictionary link has the origin of the word too.
"mid 17th century: from Greek misos 'hatred' + gunē 'woman'."

Point of interest: when your own sources explain how you're wrong, it's probably a good time to abandon the argument. Your own definitions mention things other than hatred. Sorry, that's all I need to say.

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

Only if you force the meaning of the word. Since that's dishonest, there's not much more to add here, either.

PS: as I said to another user earlier in the thread, I love how internet activism loves to change the definitions of words like racism and misogyny, then blame everyone else for not knowing the new made up definitions. Little pet peeve of mine

Except these uses predate the internet, so that's another false narrative.

Are you praytell annoyed by anything true?

 

[Eve Charm]

So 1800+ devs sign an open letter to stand up against harassment and hatred in the gaming community and not one of them come out to speak on either side about the Ton of speech coming on both sides. 1 week ago and no one says a thing, steps up on either side to stop the obvious harassment and hatred out there.

 

[Darkmantle]

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

Except, you know, for her repeated and explicit statements to the exact contrary.

She has no trouble calling all manner of people misogynists. I fail to see where she has said the exact opposite.

In, like, every video.

If that is true tell me where. You are not contributing to the discussion by being obtuse and smug about it.

 

[Darkmantle]

"Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

"Misogyny definition, hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. "
dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny

"Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women"
www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/misogyny

oh and the oxford dictionary link has the origin of the word too.
"mid 17th century: from Greek misos 'hatred' + gunē 'woman'."

Point of interest: when your own sources explain how you're wrong, it's probably a good time to abandon the argument. Your own definitions mention things other than hatred. Sorry, that's all I need to say.

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

Only if you force the meaning of the word. Since that's dishonest, there's not much more to add here, either.

PS: as I said to another user earlier in the thread, I love how internet activism loves to change the definitions of words like racism and misogyny, then blame everyone else for not knowing the new made up definitions. Little pet peeve of mine

Except these uses predate the internet, so that's another false narrative.

Are you praytell annoyed by anything true?

I think you are getting to hung up on synonyms. If you are really going to split hairs between hatred and extreme dislike, it shows me that you have already chosen a side and will do whatever mental gymnastics necessary to support it.

And not changing definitions? I've had lots of internet activists tell me that you can't be racist against white people. well here is the definition of Racism:

"the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

tell me how that precludes white people, without changing the definition?

 

[Six Ways]

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

Except, you know, for her repeated and explicit statements to the exact contrary.

She has no trouble calling all manner of people misogynists. I fail to see where she has said the exact opposite.

In, like, every video.

If that is true tell me where. You are not contributing to the discussion by being obtuse and smug about it.

Pretty much every video. If you haven't heard her say it, then you haven't actually listened to her points. And if you haven't properly watched her videos, it's not my job to explain every detail to you of the videos you are arguing about.

Example. If you say "I have seen every Monet painting, and I dislike that he only ever uses cubism", all I'm going to bother saying to you is "Monet is not a cubist painter, he is an impressionist painter". I'm not going to bother proving to you that all his paintings are impressionist.

I think you are getting to hung up on synonyms. If you are really going to split hairs between hatred and extreme dislike...

Or, as those definitions say, 'mistrust', 'contempt', 'ingrained prejudice against' and 'dislike' (note the lack of 'extreme'). The point remains - your own sources show you up.

And arguably, you could be said to be getting hung up on it yourself, since that was not the thrust of Zachary's initial post - just an addendum. You haven't really answered the main points - that you said three factually incorrect things to support your position. Regardless of the definition of misogyny, Sarkeesian never says that using these tropes makes one a misogynist.

 

[A-D.]

Her claim is clearly that the people making games hate women, and that playing the games makes you hate women too.

Except, you know, for her repeated and explicit statements to the exact contrary.

She has no trouble calling all manner of people misogynists. I fail to see where she has said the exact opposite.

In, like, every video.

If that is true tell me where. You are not contributing to the discussion by being obtuse and smug about it.

Pretty much every video. If you haven't heard her say it, then you haven't actually listened to her points. And if you haven't properly watched her videos, it's not my job to explain every detail to you of the videos you are arguing about.

Example. If you say "I have seen every Monet painting, and I dislike that he only ever uses cubism", all I'm going to bother saying to you is "Monet is not a cubist painter, he is an impressionist painter". I'm not going to bother proving to you that all his paintings are impressionist.

I think you are getting to hung up on synonyms. If you are really going to split hairs between hatred and extreme dislike...

Or, as those definitions say, 'mistrust', 'contempt', 'ingrained prejudice against' and 'dislike' (note the lack of 'extreme'). The point remains - your own sources show you up.

And arguably, you could be said to be getting hung up on it yourself, since that was not the thrust of Zachary's initial post - just an addendum. You haven't really answered the main points - that you said three factually incorrect things to support your position. Regardless of the definition of misogyny, Sarkeesian never says that using these tropes makes one a misogynist.

Two points of contention there. First she uses the "Of course" argument to avoid the reality of the argument she is making. "These tropes are bad and anyone employing them, for whatever reason, does it because they believe women are inferior, >OF COURSE< not all games or developers are bad for using them". Yes its not the actual quote from her but i cant be bothered to mine everything she says for quotes because the point of the matter is still the same. She argues that tropes are bad and shouldnt be used, she does not give alternatives as which trope to use instead or how these offending tropes could be used in a good way. Then she turns around and claims that using these tropes does not make the people using them bad people, even though she implies this exact thing to begin with by claiming the only use for them is to devalue women, therefore to specifically use a trope that devalues women, you must first devalue them yourself or you would not use the bad trope. Her entire video series lives on the pure fact that thanks to long-winded monotone speeches using as many "big words" as she can come up with, you will have forgotten part of her entire argument when she finishes it.

And for your definition of Misoginy, you are aware that except for the oxford dictionary, which has recently adopted the word literally to stand for figurative and literal implication (Literally now means both actual literally and figuratively because people kept using the wrong word and language changes to adapt), is the only dictionary that he cited specifically that uses the concept of "ingrained prejudice"? Misoginy means hatred, disdain and contempt for the entire female gender, not a specific type of the female gender, ALL OF IT. To be a misogynist, you must disdain or hate (contempt is pretty much the same anyway) all women simply because they are women.

Hating one woman, regardless of reason, does not make you a Misogynist. Hating a woman for a specific reason also does not make you a Misogynist. If you keep shifting the goal post and the definition around, the word misoginy will lose all meaning. The same way harassment has lost all meaning because people have started to adopt the idea that insulting someone is the same as harassment. Hell i have seen instances where harassment is then linked to be exactly the same thing as rape.

 

[Six Ways]

She argues that tropes are bad and shouldnt be used

That's an oversimplification. She argues that given the societal context of these games, the use of these tropes is generally sexist. She does not say 'This trope is bad'. She does not say 'This trope should not be used'.

she does not give alternatives as which trope to use instead or how these offending tropes could be used in a good way.

That's not the job of a critic, in any medium. Of course, they can suggest changes, but not doing so does not render their criticism invalid.

Then she turns around and claims that using these tropes does not make the people using them bad people, even though she implies this exact thing to begin with by claiming the only use for them is to devalue women, therefore to specifically use a trope that devalues women, you must first devalue them yourself or you would not use the bad trope. Her entire video series lives on the pure fact that thanks to long-winded monotone speeches using as many "big words" as she can come up with, you will have forgotten part of her entire argument when she finishes it.

I disagree. She doesn't imply this - she says that sexist tropes in video games are an example of, and contribute towards, the state of sexism in society. The fact that society has an undercurrent of sexism is not because of 'bad people'. It's due to the fact that people are brought up in the very same society so don't see it. And in not seeing it, help to perpetuate it. So people generally use these tropes innocently.

Put simply - good people can do bad things.

[Definition of misogyny]

When all the sources give alternatives to 'hatred', that does mean something. Ingrained prejudice was not one I was hanging onto, just another example of the alternatives given.

Regardless, again, this is irrelevant - the larger point is that Sarkeesian does not, in general, claim that people who use these tropes are inherently misogynists.