Over seventy dead in vehicular attack in Nice, France

[Cowabungaa]

because it feels like your not arguing against that, your just arguing my numbers.

That's what I addressed in your posts from the get-go, yes. That was my intention.

As for the integration, I don't argue against that in your post because I do somewhat agree to it. Yes there's an issue with that. My arguments against you boiled down to pointing out that those issues with integration don't stem from an issue with the UK's immigration numbers because that makes absolutely no sense when you look a little closer at said numbers. And that means your solution also makes little sense for the problem at hand.

As for schools, hospitals and housing being in trouble, well if you want to blame that on immigration I'd ask you to support that with data. And when looking at your NHS experiences in particular, I'm no expert but I'd suggest you rather look at austerity measures, liberalization, the issues that come with an ageing population and all that juicy stuff.

And as a little sidenote, the UK being one of Europe's smallest countries is a bold-faced lie. Have you looked at a map recently? It's 11th out of 48 total in terms of physical size, and 5th in terms of population (though that Wikipedia list includes Turkey). If anything it's one of Europe's biggest countries. Looking at people per square km is also difficult to use because it doesn't say how much room is left.

I read that, yes, but regardless of the nature of the two religions, Christianity has important political power in the West. It is because of religious reasons that evolution is controversial, much of the hostility towards abortions and LGBT people comes from Christian doctrine. If either Clinton or Trump were to say that they weren't Christian, we'd see the other in the White House.

Whether or not they are supposed to be, Christianity is intertwined with secular power in the west.

It does hold power, definitely, but that power is of a vastly different nature. And that different nature makes dealing with Christianity vastly different from dealing with Islam. And that has important implications in how we must attempt to solve the issues that we're seeing with the integration of Muslim minorities in Western countries.

That's why that different nature matters. We can't look at Islam like we look at Christianity, that won't help us. If we want to correctly judge and address integration issues we have to face that the Islam comes with important differences in its relations with politics than what we're used to. So far all we, in the West, have really been doing is walking around with our heads in our asses going "That's their religion, we have nothing to do with that because we're secular and that's private" instead of honestly looking at their cultural identity, how it would relate to ours and what that means for integration.

 

[Namehere]

People doing bad stuff...I don't like the ambivalent numbness that comes with this type of news. Did anyone give a shit about this attack when it occurred?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/02/middleeast/baghdad-car-bombs/

I noticed hardly anybody mentioned it anywhere at the time. I guess not important enough, right? Why? The numbers are higher, you like numbers, don't you? Well they're higher there.

You know this discussion's been had before right? "But what about Yemen!!!" What do you suppose the population of a country like... Canada is in terms of Yemen ancestry? Small? Almost... microscopic? You know what Canada does have, this group called French Canadians, with ties this place... France! That's right, France. Along with more trade and more travel between Canada and France then Canada and Yemen. So if people care more about somewhere more closely related to them? Are they monsters or simply more aware of things that are MORE related to them?

 

[Leg End]

That's not an issue, that's how humans work. We're not solitary animals. It's a ridiculous thing to say.

Yes. We're naturally hardwired to bug other people and often have to fight off urges to assault people that disagree with us, kind of like what happened in this instance.

I'd think wanting to go against the urge to poke people with a stick is a good thing.

People doing bad stuff...I don't like the ambivalent numbness that comes with this type of news. Did anyone give a shit about this attack when it occurred?

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/02/middleeast/baghdad-car-bombs/

I noticed hardly anybody mentioned it anywhere at the time. I guess not important enough, right? Why? The numbers are higher, you like numbers, don't you? Well they're higher there.

People caring about people closer to them is not a new thing. Arguably, it's a core trait of mankind.

 

[Cowabungaa]

That's not an issue, that's how humans work. We're not solitary animals. It's a ridiculous thing to say.

Yes. We're naturally hardwired to bug other people and often have to fight off urges to assault people that disagree with us, kind of like what happened in this instance.

I'd think wanting to go against the urge to poke people with a stick is a good thing.

Yeah, not what I was referring to. It's silly to say because on a fundamental level we're up in each other's business. From a nation providing safe havens for rape victims to a family having to do the dishes. We live together on one shared planet, we're all up in each other's business whether we want to or not. So commenting on that isn't going to help us deal with terrorism, neither is reducing this attack to what you're describing it as.

 

[Gali]

snip

I agree that Islam has a political component to it and that it is much more difficult to integrate into Western society than other religions. But such drastic means shouldn't be necessary imo. Freedom of religion does not mean you can't criticize it. I know that reality says otherwise at the moment when it comes to the Religion of Peace thanks to regressive attitudes of some people that make me feel ashamed of calling myself a liberal. But there is still the possibility that all this tension and conflict may lead to a more liberal, apolitical or secular (?) version of Islam that people living in Western countries can ascribe to. There are Muslims I personally know that already practice that and I bet there are many more. But I think they should be more open about it.

I also agree that it is very hard to define what a moderate Muslim is. That's why I think we need more debates (without insults from either sides), criticism and maybe even a real organized effort of those Muslims who want to live in Western countries while accepting their values and basic human rights. Like a new, clear defined branch of Islam. But yeah, that is easier said than done. Especially with the current political landscape. As one poster said before, 2016 is a mess. Let's hope for the best I guess.

 

[Erttheking]

The way I see it, Islam should be treated as a political movement across the spectrum and lose the privileges of freedom of religion in western countries.

So the plan for a religion prone to radicalization and that in many ways actively hates the west...is to actively try and piss them off.

I don't follow your logic here. That solution wouldn't actually solve any problems. It would just be an ego boost to people who hate Islam. And those people already have way too much influence in this country. The Republican presidential candidate has already on record in thinking that we should kill the families of terrorists. Something that, like denying Muslims religious freedoms, would solve bugger all and would probably create more problems.

 

[Madmatty]

This is going to be a lovely thread.

...Could someone give me a nudge when the world wants to be civilized again? I think I want to hole up in a corner with a blanket.

By your definition, the world has never been civilized. There has not been a single minute on this Earth with humans inhabiting it where someone wasn't murdering someone else because they didn't like them.

The best solution would be to close the borders and deport anyone openly supporting sharia law. Otherwise there's gonna be civil war and eventually WW3. This world is getting gradually worse as time goes by

How would you deport a native, born and raised?

Take away their passports and ship them off to Syria Just do what it takes

 

[Madmatty]

The way I see it, Islam should be treated as a political movement across the spectrum and lose the privileges of freedom of religion in western countries.

So the plan for a religion prone to radicalization and that in many ways actively hates the west...is to actively try and piss them off.

I don't follow your logic here. That solution wouldn't actually solve any problems. It would just be an ego boost to people who hate Islam. And those people already have way too much influence in this country. The Republican presidential candidate has already on record in thinking that we should kill the families of terrorists. Something that, like denying Muslims religious freedoms, would solve bugger all and would probably create more problems.

They cannot hate us anymore then they already do. I say the only solution is to deport the Islamists even if they were born in Europe and we may have to take extreme action. Sometimes I think the only solution is a war against Islam itself.

 

[Madmatty]

The way I see it, Islam should be treated as a political movement across the spectrum and lose the privileges of freedom of religion in western countries.

You seriously think that would help?

"Hey, see that group who have an issue with radicalized youth committing terrorist acts? Yeah, I say we massively piss them off! Actively persecute them! That'll calm them right down."

Brilliance, sheer brilliance. I'm dazzled.

What else would you have us do? I say kill or deport anyone who supports sharia law and close the borders to them. Do whatever it takes

 

[Leg End]

Take away their passports and ship them off to Syria Just do what it takes

So you're going to deport natural born citizens?
I think I prefer the idea of just shooting anyone that does something fucktarded.

It wasn't a car though. Pretty sure it was a 5 ton truck.

Harder to get but still possible.

And the guy also had a gun.

Which he seemingly opted not to use. I'm going with a theory stated earlier in this thread and saying he found just running people over to be far more effective, which it honestly is.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

They can't hate us any more? What? Compared to the other conflicts in world history, we're getting off LIGHT right now, and you want to keep pushing them? There's plenty of potential recruits in Islam, and for some reason everyone seems to want to push them in the direction of extremists. Oh. A war against Islam. Islam isn't a nation, so we can't really declare war one it. If killing Muslims was the answer to the problem, we wouldn't be in this mess right now, because we've been doing quite a lot of killing Muslims.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Kill anyone who supports a religion you don't agree with.

Yeah I can't see that backfiring in anyway shape or form.

Spoiler

https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/58/129958-004-C9B8B89D.jpg

 

[Madmatty]

Take away their passports and ship them off to Syria Just do what it takes

So you're going to deport natural born citizens?
I think I prefer the idea of just shooting anyone that does something fucktarded

If they support sharia law then absolutely yes they don't deserve to live in a secular society if they do. if we don't do that then there's the inevitable civil war. We may need to take extreme actions.

 

[Parasondox]

Take away their passports and ship them off to Syria Just do what it takes

They cannot hate us anymore then they already do. I say the only solution is to deport the Islamists even if they were born in Europe and we may have to take extreme action. Sometimes I think the only solution is a war against Islam itself.

What else would you have us do? I say kill or deport anyone who supports sharia law and close the borders to them. Do whatever it takes

Are you going to put "/sarcasm" at the end of those or... oh, you are being generally serious?

Such a poisonous and dangerous mindset. More innocent people treated like criminals for being a part of a different religion. Sickening.

 

[Leg End]

Kill anyone who supports a religion you don't agree with.

Yeah I can't see that backfiring in anyway shape or form.

You can actually just post an image of various terror groups and it's the exact same thing.

Spoiler

https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/58/129958-004-C9B8B89D.jpg

Bastard ruined an entire mustache.

 

[Madmatty]

Kill anyone who supports a religion you don't agree with.

Yeah I can't see that backfiring in anyway shape or form.

You can actually just post an image of various terror groups and it's the exact same thing.

Spoiler

https://media1.britannica.com/eb-media/58/129958-004-C9B8B89D.jpg

Bastard ruined an entire mustache.

I said deport or kill anyone who supports sharia law not all Muslims if there are Muslims who hate sharia law they can stay

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

All the more reason for US to not freaking do it.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

...........Not sure if serious....

On the off chance that you are, lets be frank. This wouldn't actually solve anything. It would just make things worse.

It would only make you FEEL good.

Also I hope you realize that you're advocating for the worst genocide in human history. You do get that right?

 

[Leg End]

If they support sharia law then absolutely yes they don't deserve to live in a secular society if they do. if we don't do that then there's the inevitable civil war. We may need to take extreme actions.

That's not Deportation then. That's Exile. A very different thing with very different connotations.

It's civil war versus plain old regular war. Not much of aZero difference. Unless we're wanting to go all Deus Vult up in here.

...Are we?