Pachter: On-Disc DLC Is "Just Plain Greed"

[rembrandtqeinstein]

IMO Day 1 DLC on disk or not and even pre-order bonuses are pretty scummy. Basically is denies game content to legitimate purchasers for the purpose of market segmentation which has always been a crappy practice.

All sorts of stores have offered promotions along the lines of "buy X, and we'll throw in a free Y!" Are they all scummy?

Apples and oranges. The scummy market segmentation I'm referring to is making different versions of basically the same product at different price points. Then using advertising and other psychological pressures to make the people who can't or won't purchase the more expensive version feel bad in order to increase the perceived value of the higher cost version.

In the case of pre-orders the publisher is shifting the risk that the game is bad from themselves to the customer.

 

[4173]

IMO Day 1 DLC on disk or not and even pre-order bonuses are pretty scummy. Basically is denies game content to legitimate purchasers for the purpose of market segmentation which has always been a crappy practice.

All sorts of stores have offered promotions along the lines of "buy X, and we'll throw in a free Y!" Are they all scummy?

Apples and oranges. The scummy market segmentation I'm referring to is making different versions of basically the same product at different price points. Then using advertising and other psychological pressures to make the people who can't or won't purchase the more expensive version feel bad in order to increase the perceived value of the higher cost version.

In the case of pre-orders the publisher is shifting the risk that the game is bad from themselves to the customer.

I disagree that they are making different versions. The game is one product, the bonuses, incentives etc. are their own product(s). I will admit however, if one has a less compartmentalized view than my own, then those psychological pressures may well exist. I won't even claim to be immune, it just doesn't bother me to any significant extent.

That is a fair point about pre-orders. In many cases it may not make sense [for the consumer] to assume the risk of a crappy product to receive a second product worth $5. Even if the consumer knows [assuming the game is okay] they absolutely will eventually buy the bonus when offered as DLC. That said, I don't see the practice as objectionable behavior by the publishers.

 

[Callate]

I'll bet you gave away the rights to your TV when you turned it on. LOL @ ridiculous ideas.

I envy you if you still believe ridiculous ideas have no overlap with "law".

You probably think every EULA is legally binding too don't you?

No; some EULAs are sufficiently broad as to be unenforcable, and others ask users to sign away rights that they can't be legally asked to forego. Whether one can be bound to a contract one "agrees to" simply by purchasing the product remains something of an open question.

But given that one is unlikely to know if the conditions they have violated are legally binding or not until they're before a court and the odds are stacked against them, the point becomes somewhat moot.

If someone chose to break the protection on media in their possession to access "on-disk DLC", chances are very good that they wouldn't be caught by the copyright holder. If the company were to become aware of the breaking, there's also a better than even chance that they wouldn't act on that knowledge, barring the breaker also being the person distributing the tools to make that act possible.

But were the matter to come down to the judgement of the law, the odds would be against them, and I've seen nothing in any matter of precedent to suggest otherwise. Violations to "trialware" agreements, wherein the software was similarly already in the user's possession, have suggested quite the opposite. If you have specific offerings to make a different case, feel free to share. If, on the other hand, all you have is unfounded incredulity...

 

[Woodsey]

If I may grumpily editorialize for a moment: I don't see that as particularly likely. Based on my experience with the industry, the gaming public will accept any hilariously anti-consumer practice provided it's spearheaded by a popular title.

Well, he did say eventually, after all.

If I may grumpily editorialize for a moment: I don't see that as particularly likely. Based on my experience with the industry, the gaming public will accept any hilariously anti-consumer practice provided it's spearheaded by a popular title.

Now come on guys, remember when we all fought Always-Online DRM and it went away forever and 6 million dip-shits DIDN'T just buy straight into it as soon as a popular game came around? And what we most certainly didn't see was people actually defending such anti-consumerist bullshit?

You silly, silly pair.

OT: If it's on the disc I buy, or amongst the files I download, I'm accessing it. If they don't like that they can speak to my solicitor, Vincent van Gogh-Fuck-Yourself.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, getting DLC on the GOTY Edition makes it's what?

I'm pretty sure you were TRYING to say something interesting and insightful there. However, I can't recall a GOTY edition that has actually claimed it was DLC unless you had to actually download it.

So...Uh...nice try or something?

 

[Epona]

Well, getting DLC on the GOTY Edition makes it's what?

I'm pretty sure you were TRYING to say something interesting and insightful there. However, I can't recall a GOTY edition that has actually claimed it was DLC unless you had to actually download it.

So...Uh...nice try or something?

Take a look at this.


http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Age-Origins-Ultimate-Xbox-360/dp/B0045ZIENQ

 

[manaman]

I think we should waste taxpayer dollars and subpoena the main offenders to stand before a congressional hearing to explain why they feel they can sell us a physical game with pre-loaded DLC, but hold it for ransom until the consumer pays an additional fee.

Hey, if Congress has the time to look into baseball players using steroids, they have time to look at publishers/developers ripping off consumers...

I know I am coming into this thread late, but sorry that fight was fought long ago. You don't own software in the same way you own a copy of a book. Your use of that software has little protection through the government. The company can even require you to surrender the disk to them if they ask.

There are no limits on how much or little time you can use the software (it is a license they can revoke at any time for any reason).

It is illegal for you to use any means in anyway to bypass or disable copy protection, including protection that renders the game unpalatable or consumes resources while the game is not running. There has been some dispute about DRM that is basically spyware, but so far the government is not on your side.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Well, getting DLC on the GOTY Edition makes it's what?

I'm pretty sure you were TRYING to say something interesting and insightful there. However, I can't recall a GOTY edition that has actually claimed it was DLC unless you had to actually download it.

So...Uh...nice try or something?

Take a look at this.


http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Age-Origins-Ultimate-Xbox-360/dp/B0045ZIENQ

Says Additional content packs, not Downloadable content packs.
Just thought I should mentions this.

 

[Epona]

Well, getting DLC on the GOTY Edition makes it's what?

I'm pretty sure you were TRYING to say something interesting and insightful there. However, I can't recall a GOTY edition that has actually claimed it was DLC unless you had to actually download it.

So...Uh...nice try or something?

Take a look at this.


http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Age-Origins-Ultimate-Xbox-360/dp/B0045ZIENQ

Says Additional content packs, not Downloadable content packs.
Just thought I should mentions this.

Look at the box itself. Blow up the picture. It says:

"Also includes all 7 Downloadable Content Packs"

 

[Cyrus Hanley]

If Pachter is saying it you know it must be blantantly obvious.

If someone farted in a crowded elevator he'd be the first to point it out.

 

[Ushiromiya Battler]

Well, getting DLC on the GOTY Edition makes it's what?

I'm pretty sure you were TRYING to say something interesting and insightful there. However, I can't recall a GOTY edition that has actually claimed it was DLC unless you had to actually download it.

So...Uh...nice try or something?

Take a look at this.


http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Age-Origins-Ultimate-Xbox-360/dp/B0045ZIENQ

Says Additional content packs, not Downloadable content packs.
Just thought I should mentions this.

Look at the box itself. Blow up the picture. It says:

"Also includes all 7 Downloadable Content Packs"

Well, a mistake from me then, sorry.

 

[Strazdas]

The main problem to this theory is that you dont own the game. whne you buy a game, you buy the right to install and play it unlimited amount of times (in some cases like far cry 2 - limited amount of installs). you dont actually buy the game, you buy the right to play it and the means (physical disc). this is very similar to how steam works really, you buy the ability to play the game unlimited amount of time, but you dont actually own it (yes i know it donwloads the files, but you cant run it without steam).

Partial ninja, I was going to say that next publishers are going to claim that you didn't buy the disc according to some weasel-wording bullcrap the slime devils in Legal Manipulation thought up.

Some already claim that. for example you no longer can legaly use no-cd cracks because the game no longer belongs to you and therefore you cannot modify it. After the Hot Coffe mod even San Andreas made it illegal to mod because "the game isnt yours to mod", but really that was because via some fluke (i hope so) they managed to loose a lawsuit because somone made a sex mod in a 18+ game.

 

[lotanerve]

I think we should waste taxpayer dollars and subpoena the main offenders to stand before a congressional hearing to explain why they feel they can sell us a physical game with pre-loaded DLC, but hold it for ransom until the consumer pays an additional fee.

Hey, if Congress has the time to look into baseball players using steroids, they have time to look at publishers/developers ripping off consumers...

I know I am coming into this thread late, but sorry that fight was fought long ago. You don't own software in the same way you own a copy of a book. Your use of that software has little protection through the government. The company can even require you to surrender the disk to them if they ask.

There are no limits on how much or little time you can use the software (it is a license they can revoke at any time for any reason).

It is illegal for you to use any means in anyway to bypass or disable copy protection, including protection that renders the game unpalatable or consumes resources while the game is not running. There has been some dispute about DRM that is basically spyware, but so far the government is not on your side.

I respectfully disagree. Microsoft doesn't sell Windows 7 Home Premium, with Windows 7 Professional features "locked away" on the disc. If you want to upgrade to professional, you have register your licensed copy, and then pay the upgrade cost, then have the extra features downloaded. It a line that even Microsoft knows not to cross. Funny how you don't hear this practice being used on business software, but since when does Quicken come out with DLC? Anyway I'm sure one understands the point I'm trying to make.

 

[manaman]

I think we should waste taxpayer dollars and subpoena the main offenders to stand before a congressional hearing to explain why they feel they can sell us a physical game with pre-loaded DLC, but hold it for ransom until the consumer pays an additional fee.

Hey, if Congress has the time to look into baseball players using steroids, they have time to look at publishers/developers ripping off consumers...

I know I am coming into this thread late, but sorry that fight was fought long ago. You don't own software in the same way you own a copy of a book. Your use of that software has little protection through the government. The company can even require you to surrender the disk to them if they ask.

There are no limits on how much or little time you can use the software (it is a license they can revoke at any time for any reason).

It is illegal for you to use any means in anyway to bypass or disable copy protection, including protection that renders the game unpalatable or consumes resources while the game is not running. There has been some dispute about DRM that is basically spyware, but so far the government is not on your side.

I respectfully disagree. Microsoft doesn't sell Windows 7 Home Premium, with Windows 7 Professional features "locked away" on the disc. If you want to upgrade to professional, you have register your licensed copy, and then pay the upgrade cost, then have the extra features downloaded. It a line that even Microsoft knows not to cross. Funny how you don't hear this practice being used on business software, but since when does Quicken come out with DLC? Anyway I'm sure one understands the point I'm trying to make.

Actually I don't see the point you are trying to make. I mean I think I do, but I don't see how it is relevant.

Microsoft does something differently with a different class of software, so that means the government is on your side concerning software rights? Or does that mean it is legal for you to bypass copyright protections? Or does it mean you don't have a license that the company that owns the software has end control over? Does that make it illegal for companies to place code on a disc even through the license agreement you agreed to states you can only use specific parts? Nope, nope, and big nope.

I noticed you mentioned business software. Let me tell you about a little company called National Instruments. They produce a nifty little bit of software called Lookout Run-Time Server. Lookout Server is very useful, to a very specific group of people. The software versions are IDENTICAL, the only difference is how much I/O you are allowed to use. You pay on a tier basis for 50, 100, 200, 500, or Unlimited I/O. The only thing you need to upgrade (Having done this several times before I speak from experience) is the information they email to you. They also mail you a little packet with instructions, but as you do not need to download anything new, or install anything off a disc you don't even need the packet.

Does the fact that Microsoft doesn't do things this way mean it is legal for me to upgrade to unlimited I/O because the software is there, already installed on my computer? By your logic it shouldn't matter that I payed for 50 I/O, because Microsoft doesn't make me pay different rates depending on how many programs I install on the computer.

Does it mean I can keep using the software after my license has expired because obviously the software is still on the computer? Again by your logic I shouldn't have to renew the software because Microsoft doesn't make me renew the license.

It just doesn't work that way. Sorry.

 

[Something Amyss]

Take a look at this.


http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Age-Origins-Ultimate-Xbox-360/dp/B0045ZIENQ

You mean where it's listed as expansion packs and not marked as DLC?

Huh. Your point being?

 

[Epona]

Take a look at this.


http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Age-Origins-Ultimate-Xbox-360/dp/B0045ZIENQ

You mean where it's listed as expansion packs and not marked as DLC?

Huh. Your point being?

I repeat:

Look at the box itself. Blow up the picture. It says:

"Also includes all 7 Downloadable Content Packs"

 

[Something Amyss]

"Also includes all 7 Downloadable Content Packs"

And it does.

Be more specific next time, too.