Paul Dini: Superhero Cartoon Execs Don't Want Female Viewers

[Grabehn]

Yikes, that's disheartening. I would have thought the response to getting a demographic you didn't expect would be to capitalize on it (look at what's happening with My Little Pony) instead of shrieking in horror and pulling the plug.

There's a pretty big difference between MLP and the people behind it and CN though, I've heard lots about how "smart" the people behind MLP are, CN on the other hand is a bunch of pretty thick minded "them girls don't like the actions stuffs", and it's been like that for a while. it was pretty clear when they decided to change Teen Titans for that baby version of it.

Get ALL OF THEM TOYS FOR THEM BOYS OUT THERE, cuz girls... they obviously just like them Barbies and them pink thingys, OBVIOUSLY.

 

[RJ Dalton]

I already commented on the other thread that brought this up, but I'll say again, it's total bullshit. I knew plenty of girls who had boy-toys when I was a kid. In fact, the reason I got into the Aliens toys as a kid was because there was this girl who had the entire first line of the original figures and she brought them to school. I thought they were cool, so I wanted to get them, too. That's right, a girl introduced me to the Alien franchise. A GIRL. And a girl I know still, as an adult, still owns a sizable collection of the original TMNT toys from the first series that aired in 85.
Do not tell me that girls don't buy these. I know for a fact that they do.

Also, note how the original article makes a point of mentioning how none of the studies on toy sales that these companies are basing their decisions on has ever looked at gender as a factor. The whole "boys buy action figures, girls buy barbies" is nothing more than an assumption on their part. They have no evidence to back it up.

 

[mattttherman3]

So young justice and green lantern were cancelled because girls watched the show?! ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?! THAT IS THE BIGGEST HORSE LOAD OF SHIT! Fuck cartoon network. That's such a piss poor excuse. You should have marketed it towards teenagers. That's clearly what the story was fucking aiming for.

 

[weirdee]

the dumb thing is that they even managed to pick shows that were pretty good, but then later we find out it's for the wrong reasons (goofy jokes that are "oriented towards boys") instead of what the show is actually good for

for a moment, you wonder why steven universe even made it in, and then you realize that the title character is there because cartoon network asked a male lead, but the writer pulls a reversal on that and makes him the joke character next to three stronger female characters who have their own fleshed out personalities, but he's also a pivotal figure in the series for reasons other than being the typical male lead that has to look better than the other characters

we're sure a long way from the powerpuff girls

 

[Gilhelmi]

Someone pass the booze.

I am a strait 30yr old male (odd, and a bit sad, that I have to say that) and I like shows that appeal to young women. I like the different sensibilities, and I find that many have better story telling.

Ya know what the best animated show of the last 10 years was? Avatar: the Last Airbender. Good humor, good story telling, well thought out plot (you can have a good story, but crappy plot). It appealed to everybody. I also like (but not as much) MLP:FM.

I really want to start my own family oriented, animated network (online, TV is a dying medium). I can even picture my dream line-up (not possible because of network conflicts, but a dream).

What I am saying is, MORE YOUNG JUSTICE AND TOWER PREP. (only saw a couple episodes of each, but they were really good)

 

[Grahav]

Well, I won't even pretend to be surprised that this was coming out of a Cartoon Network talking head, because they developed a real taste for dumbing down some of their more successful shows and flat-out screwing over others, and generally became a pale caricature of themselves later on.

Quite frankly, I'd advocate for boys to be as offended by all of this as anyone else. "This is all they think you care about," I'd tell them. "They don't think you're smart enough to keep up with anything besides 'goofy boy humor', and they think you're so easy to lead on that you'll just want their crap without even caring."

True. As a guy I feel insulted that the parameter they think I will consume is "shit".

 

[Jandau]

So, shows aren't made for girls because they don't buy the toys, they don't buy the toys because they don't like the shows, they don't like the shows because the shows aren't made for them. Am I getting this right?

Aside from how stupid that is, it gets even worse when someone tries to attract a new demographic and gets shot down because of such circular logic. The irony is, the girls might START buying the toys if they start liking the show, which might result in more money.

Also, being cancelled to make room for Level Up! is like tossing out cake and replacing it with cow diarrhea. Yes, Level Up is the equivalent of liquified bovine feces. No, that is not an exaggeration. But then again, Cartoon Network has been doing its very best to drive itself into the ground, preferably with such force so as to reach the core of the planet...

 

[Ace Morologist]

It's weird how one-directional the cries for gender equality have been in this thread thus far. ("Girls should totally be into 'boy-oriented' toys!") Hasn't been nearly as much, "Boys should totally play with Bratz and bejewelers and Barbies and whatnot!" (I dunno... whatever girls play with.)

When Level Up had the main characters just in a room talking to each other, it was pretty funny. Or when the REALLY goofy one was on screen with his mom. The general conceit of the show and the main plots were usually weak, though. I think it needed a second season to grow into a real show.

Steven Universe is subversively brilliant. It might even be better than Adventure Time.

Making TV shows in order to sell products is putting the cart before the horse and it makes for weaker overall TV shows, but that doesn't mean it's ever going to stop.

Buffy was a good show, started off strong and reached a moment of resounding triumph at the end of the third season, but what hurt my enjoyment of it was that it kept putting its characters through hell over and over again each season. There's only so much of that I could take.

I don't know Paul Dini personally. Am I just supposed to take his word that this is the way things work at the executive level, or am I just meant to accept it because of my general distrust for people who make lots and lots of money? Is it possible he's exaggerating for the sake of the podcast? Is he misinterpreting things he heard out of context? Is he speculating? He doesn't even name any names. For all we know, he's making stuff up based on what he assumes.

I think that about covers it.

--Morology!

 

[Eric the Orange]

Reading through this thread it seems like a bunch of manchildren and womanchildren are finding out for the first time that their Saturday morning cartoons are just advertisements for toys. Further, they are becoming angry that the cartoons are advertisements for boys' toys!

Of course, everyone else knows that and is unsurprised. It's not sexism or misogyny, it's just business. And I say this as a lover of comics, cartoons, and women!

there's a big difference between understanding why something is done, and approving or supporting what is done.

For example look at the famous robot maid logic. Robot is told to keep house clean. Robot come to conclusion that all mess is caused by the master. Robot kills the master to prevent any further mess.

Looking at that I can see the logic and understand how it works but I do not agree with the methodology to achieve the result.

 

[Fanghawk]

I don't know Paul Dini personally. Am I just supposed to take his word that this is the way things work at the executive level, or am I just meant to accept it because of my general distrust for people who make lots and lots of money? Is it possible he's exaggerating for the sake of the podcast? Is he misinterpreting things he heard out of context? Is he speculating? He doesn't even name any names. For all we know, he's making stuff up based on what he assumes.

Gail Simone made a similar comment actually [https://twitter.com/GailSimone/status/412486440753197056], in response to Dini's interview.

[tweet t=https://twitter.com/GailSimone/status/412486440753197056]

It's weird how one-directional the cries for gender equality have been in this thread thus far. ("Girls should totally be into 'boy-oriented' toys!") Hasn't been nearly as much, "Boys should totally play with Bratz and bejewelers and Barbies and whatnot!" (I dunno... whatever girls play with.)

I suspect there are a lot more cases of girls being told "This is for boys only" than the other way around, but otherwise that's fair. I think a couple of posts touched on "boys playing with girls toys" a little though (ie MLP and Swedish advertising).

 

[Yozozo]

Some people keep mentioning it's working with MLP, and Hasbro hasn't shut MLP down... it's due to a simple reason...

Unlike the superheroes shows, MLP's outlier demographic DOES spend money on the toys. LOTS of money actually. In between the 2nd season run and 3rd season Hasbro experienced an explosion in their sales figures... MLP sales up 150%. That is a crazy increase in sales. Little girls just do NOT have the kind of spending power 16-35 year old males do. (Hasbro did suffer a small loss in Transformers and other related boy properties, however with the MLP increase it still puts them way ahead).

THAT is why Hasbro doesn't mind so much the strange fringe demographic watching the show, because surprise... it DOES sell to the fringe demo.

 

[Steve the Pocket]

Some people keep mentioning it's working with MLP, and Hasbro hasn't shut MLP down... it's due to a simple reason...

Unlike the superheroes shows, MLP's outlier demographic DOES spend money on the toys. LOTS of money actually. In between the 2nd season run and 3rd season Hasbro experienced an explosion in their sales figures... MLP sales up 150%. That is a crazy increase in sales. Little girls just do NOT have the kind of spending power 16-35 year old males do. (Hasbro did suffer a small loss in Transformers and other related boy properties, however with the MLP increase it still puts them way ahead).

THAT is why Hasbro doesn't mind so much the strange fringe demographic watching the show, because surprise... it DOES sell to the fringe demo.

Well, that and because it's the most popular show on a network they sunk a buttload of money into launching. They couldn't justify pulling the plug on it even if they wanted to. They had to make it work somehow. I bet you almost anything there was a lot of hair-pulling and arguing going on in the back room about it.

 

[chinangel]

this made me physically mad. As a female nerd, gamer and casual observer of comics. This pissed me off. There are tonnes of girls out there who love cartoons about action heroes, about super heroes, about bad guys getting beaten up.

We exist, we want to be recognized.

 

[Norix596]

Conventional wisdom is a very hard thing to fight, especially before "the suits" wherever it is but especially in business. What seems utterly bizarre in terms of this case's example (if Paul Dini is to be believed) is that there's this assumption that there's this kind of immutable zero-sum scale between male and female viewers. As if to say, "Ok we've got a 60% male 40% female viewership - we want more male viewership for merchandizing reasons so we need to take steps to swap out that female fan-base so that male fans will fill up that 40%." If you intentionally take steps to make your produce less appealing to a portion of your fan-base that doesn't automatically mean that other people in the same demographic as the "desired" one (especially when your demographic is something as broad and blunt as gender) will start being fans now that... there's more "space" available?

 

[Mortuorum]

What I am saying is, MORE YOUNG JUSTICE AND TOWER PREP. (only saw a couple episodes of each, but they were really good)

Tower Prep was very good. I'm not sure if it's available on demand anywhere, but it's worth watching if you can find it. Reminded me a lot of early Buffy. Maybe even better. Shame nobody else picked it up.

 

[tossitshakeit]

It is interesting to me to see how many people are trying to make this into an advertising issue rather than a sexist issue.

This is the same problem that Hollywood has with movies - there were similar comments made by execs in early 2011, I believe, that talked about wanting to get men into theaters, considering women to be their "+1", because women don't buy popcorn. So the only time they actively consider women audiences in movies is when they're making a Chick Flick, or when they're on a date with a guy. That might not seem like much, but every action, every comedy, every drama, every historical - THOSE are for men, and are adjusted for a male audience (where the camera lands on for reaction shots, where it goes for eye candy, etc). Women get the romance and Sex in the City.

This is sexism, plain and simple.

The NFL managed to figure out that women will buy merchandise if it's advertised for them, and so did Nascar. In Japan they release trailers meant to appeal to men, and then meant to appeal for women, because they realize women are 50% of their revenue. Guess what, it WORKS.

This backward thinking in the industry capital of the world is SOLELY a product of sexism, it's wrong, it's biting them in the butt, it's pathetic, it's sad, it's a trend you see over and over and over and over and over and over again and the fact that anyone would cite Hasbro catering to Bronies as evidence that this is just a marketing deal is ridiculous.

White Males are the "golden" audience. Young White Males (of course defaulted as straight) are considered the best audience to seek out, so any company would celebrate to get them. Maybe it's because they've spent so long perfecting advertising methods that appeal to white men? I mean, consider, if you're a doctor, and 90% of the casework you've seen and studied is about working on men, you'd rather have a male patient than a weirdo, offlier female patient. You just know how to fix a male patient better! (That's also an example of an area that's white male-focused. Did you know women typically DON'T experience a numb arm when having a heart attack? too bad all the studies and research were primarily focused on men! Good thing women don't suffer from heart attacks haha! Oh wait!!!)

 

[Yuuki]

Man check out these statistics...

http://www.toyassociation.org/TIA/Industry_Facts/salesdata/IndustryFacts/Sales_Data/Sales_Data.aspx?hkey=6381a73a-ce46-4caf-8bc1-72b99567df1e#.UrgAffQW1rV

Action Figure/Acc/Role Play:
2011: $1.44B
2012: $1.39B

Dolls
2011: $2.66B
2012: $2.69B

That's incredible. The number girls purchasing dolls is basically double the number of boys purchasing action figures.

 

[Yuuki]

The NFL managed to figure out that women will buy merchandise if it's advertised for them, and so did Nascar. In Japan they release trailers meant to appeal to men, and then meant to appeal for women, because they realize women are 50% of their revenue. Guess what, it WORKS.

But does it work just as WELL? That's the question that stakeholders want answered. This is about maximizing profits, so if something works even *slightly* better than something else, people will put it on a pedestal.

Calling it "sexism" seems completely pointless because you can't blame any one person/aspect for this, it's a completely unintentional trend that has cropped up over decades and countless people who have played a role (unknowingly). That trend just happens to lean more towards one gender than another, thanks to how marketing works.
So it may "define" sexism, but it's utterly pointless labeling it that because it doesn't bring around any SOLUTIONS. You're just calling it sexism for the sake of calling it sexism, reminds me of how Anita labels everything "misogynistic" (hatred of women) even though there is nobody in particular doing things out of a hatred of women, it's merely one of the indirect outcomes of a very big thing.
It's like a big war happens, some rabbits get killed in the process, then one faction labels the other faction "rabbit haters, discrimination against rabbits!!" and the other faction can only think "...WTF?".

It doesn't get us any closer to the solution at all.

 

[RolandOfGilead]

So this is why I can't have nice things (I'm male btw)