Pay 2 Win Acceptance

[BrawlMan]

'Tis a noble endeavor indeed, but as long as the big titles that draw people in continue to use greedy practices AND be the big titles that draw people in, we'll always be the select few booing in a crowd of millions cheering. Maybe it's a defeatist attitude, but seeing as the things we rail against continue to propagate unfettered and supported throughout the industry, efforts like ours will continue to be Pyrrhic victories.

They're only pyrrhic victories, if you let it be that way. I didn't say save everyone. I said do as much as you can. Once again, if those refuse to listen, that's on them. They'll learn to regret it or screw up so badly that they have no one to blame but themselves for buying into it in the first place. Of course, most of that blame lies on the greedy fucks at the top, but those that blindly defend the practice and make excuses share just as much blame as well. Like I said before, I'm not giving up, Sterling's not giving up, and plenty of others aren't giving up. Plenty of those European countries you saw are definitely not giving up. My word on this is final. Do as you please.

 

[Xprimentyl]

My word on this is final. Do as you please.

Dude, I'm not arguing against you, just pointing out that the undertaking is extremely difficult to the point being impossible to affect any substantial change. The few minds you can change are but drops in the ocean; if that's enough for you to feel you've done something, more power to you. Next, go tell 10 racists not to be racist to end racism.

 

[BrawlMan]

Dude, I'm not arguing against you,

I never said you did. I was only making my point. You did nothing wrong and you're fine.

the undertaking is extremely difficult to the point being impossible to affect any substantial change. The few minds you can change are but drops in the ocean; if that's enough for you to feel you've done something, more power to you.

Like I said before, I'll do what I can. I don't care if it's difficult. I'm not going to be harping 24/7, but I will give the help that I can and move on.

Next, go tell 10 racists not to be racist to end racism.

You go have fun with that.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

It's not being nihilistic, fatalistic, or trying to come off depressingly profound, it's called being realistic. The fact is, gamers who actually give a crap about video games are a microscopic minority and thus stopped being the primary audience a LONG time ago. Video games or otherwise, if you're not in the primary audience nobody cares what you think in an industry, and even then it's only if you're going along with a good percentage of the people in it.

The reality of the situation is that the video game industry does what it does and gets away with it because legions of gamers who don't know or don't care how blatantly they're being screwed over will support it. This is the end result of video games going from a shameful thing "nobody except losers living in their parents basement does" so says the stereotype to the mainstream thing that nearly everybody on the planet is doing to some capacity.

If you want to fight to stop a tsunami with a cup of water go ahead. Don't give some hopelessly optimistic contrarian lecture trying to come off as some noble crusader. You're not, you're just unwilling to accept what's right in front of your eyes.

Welcome to ass appeal which everyone keeps saying would be so good for so much entertainment and "Don't you want more people playing and for [insert title here] to get mass appeal".

To quote Men in Black.

"A person is smart, people, people are dumb......."

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Because of my anti-mobile stance in general

The only games you would see me playing on my phone are Card games like Magic the Gathering Arena, Hearthstone, and Yu Gi Oh Dual Links

Sadly, my phone isn't good enough to run those games. They were made with Tablets in mind clearly.

I'm pretty anti-mobile.
I mean I do try and play mobile games and hunt through the market for ones not awful but each time I swear I come back with even less games that are even worth trying (Also I'm not counting mobile ports because most of those are inferior on mobile than on other platforms).

Also probably not actually tablet games as phone vs tablet wise my present phone which cost the same as my tablet and I bought then about 2 months apart is actually spec wise worse than the phone (Phone is 6gb ram tablet is 4 gb ram)

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Spread the word and teach them.

You cannot teach those who will not listen when you have no way to make them listen.

The people spending tons on Shark Cards or I won't say V Bucks as Fortnite isn't as bad as other games in the monetisation aspect ( and the be clear I hate Fortnite as a game) but say Madden / Fifa ultimate team and other games aren't the people reading gaming media. They don't care. They are in gaming because it's a popular hobby and they're playing the popular game of the moment as determined by the hype cycle and whatever company pays out for a lot of adverts.

 

[BrawlMan]

You cannot teach those who will not listen when you have no way to make them listen.

The people spending tons on Shark Cards or I won't say V Bucks as Fortnite isn't as bad as other games in the monetisation aspect ( and the be clear I hate Fortnite as a game) but say Madden / Fifa ultimate team and other games aren't the people reading gaming media. They don't care. They are in gaming because it's a popular hobby and they're playing the popular game of the moment as determined by the hype cycle and whatever company pays out for a lot of adverts.

Said by the goal poster who sits on his butt and does nothing, but goal post. If you want to quit, be my guest. It would not surprise me. You really didn't listen to my other posts. I'm aware of those that don't listen. If they don't listen, that consequences on it. I won't lose sleep over them. Sooner or later, it'll come back to bite them. That's why it's best to get them as soon you can.

My main concern are those with addiction or gambling tendencies. They are the ones that really need help. Or those are really young age and are peer pressured into doing something they shouldn't be doing.

 

[immortalfrieza]

You cannot teach those who will not listen when you have no way to make them listen.

The people spending tons on Shark Cards or I won't say V Bucks as Fortnite isn't as bad as other games in the monetisation aspect ( and the be clear I hate Fortnite as a game) but say Madden / Fifa ultimate team and other games aren't the people reading gaming media. They don't care. They are in gaming because it's a popular hobby and they're playing the popular game of the moment as determined by the hype cycle and whatever company pays out for a lot of adverts.

Exactly. I don't touch mobile games, exploitative DLC, and am anti all the exploitative business practices in the industry. I'm just not delusional enough to honestly think that me NOT buying into this garbage when there's 10,000 more people who will for every 1 person like me who doesn't is actually doing to do anything whatsoever. People have been saying "VOTE WITH YOUR WALLETS!!!" for decades and this exploitative garbage has only grown more and more popular. People who claim that there's something that can be done never actually do anything because they in truth don't actually care and are just acting like they do to look down on others and feel superior.

 

[Xprimentyl]

You go have fun with that.

Just pointing out the fallacy in your idea that not engaging with shitty practices and telling a scant few others to follow suit affects nothing in the grand scheme of things, that humans generally can't be easily swayed with clear logic, and often the simplest solution requires a very complex, nigh impossible, change at a fundamental level across the majority.

We learned that smoking causes cancer; the tobacco industry remains a multi-billion dollar industry. We know that fast food is mostly unhealthy and leads to crippling obesity and myriad other health issues; the fast food industry remains a multi-billion dollar industry. Game devs have learned they can whore their games out with recurring payments;... the video game industry remains a multi-billion dollar industry.

Until there is a coup from the majority of gamers against the industry and their practices, the $5 from me and my 5 friends who don't support sleazy monetization won't be noticed, least of all missed, and the industry's accountants will keep working overtime counting the cash from those that don't care or know better. Meanwhile, there are fewer and fewer games that I, a once avid gamer, can fully enjoy.

 

[BrawlMan]

Just pointing out the fallacy in your idea that not engaging with shitty practices and telling a scant few others to follow suit affects nothing in the grand scheme of things, that humans generally can't be easily swayed with clear logic, and often the simplest solution requires a very complex, nigh impossible, change at a fundamental level across the majority.

And I care because.....

I get your point, but that's not going to deter me or stop me. Once again, they don't want to listen, they'll see the consequences at some point. Either that or eternal self-suffering. Though sometimes it is best to see a fool, leave a fool. Depends on the situation.

We learned that smoking causes cancer; the tobacco industry remains a multi-billion dollar industry. We know that fast food is mostly unhealthy and leads to crippling obesity and myriad other health issues; the fast food industry remains a multi-billion dollar industry. Game devs have learned they can whore their games out with recurring payments;... the video game industry remains a multi-billion dollar industry.

Your point? You already telling me what I already know and understand.

Meanwhile, there are fewer and fewer games that I, a once avid gamer, can fully enjoy

So? It's not going to stop me from gaming. I've more than admitted that I rarely care for most AAA games anymore, but it doesn't mean I'm going to stop altogether. Like I said before, I got plenty of other options. Like anyone else, you just have to take the little extra effort to bother and find something. If you're not interested, then you're not interested. If you're interested, then you're interested. It's as simple as that. This part we've already discussed before at least twice at some point. My answer remains the same. For the record, I don't game as much as I used to either, but that's why I pick something that I know I'm going to play. Thankfully, this summer is looking really good for the smaller games. They give me exactly what I want and need, with no extra caveats, nor manipulative bullshit most of the time.

 

[Xprimentyl]

And I care because.....

I get your point, but that's not going to deter me or stop me. Once again, they don't want to listen, they'll see the consequences at some point. Either that or eternal self-suffering. Though sometimes it is best to see a fool, leave a fool. Depends on the situation.


Your point? You already telling me what I already know and understand.


So? It's not going to stop me from gaming. I've more than a minute that I rarely care for most triple a games anymore, but it doesn't mean I'm going to stop all together. Like I said before, I got plenty of other options. Like anyone else, you just have to take the little extra effort to bother and find something. If you're not interested, then you're not interested. If you're interested, then you're interested It's as simple as that. This part we've already discussed before at least twice at some point. My answer remains the same. For the record, I don't game as much as I used to either, but that's why I pick something that I know I'm going to play. Thankfully, this summer is looking really good for the smaller games. They give me exactly what I want and need, with no extra caveats, nor manipulative bullshit most of the time.

I guess I misconstrued your passion for your solution for individuals as a proposed and practical solution for the entire state of the industry. If you agree that every little bit counts, but a bunch of little bits won't matter, then we're in agreeance.

 

[BrawlMan]

If you agree that every little bit counts, but a bunch of little bits won't matter

They do matter to me. Maybe not to you, and others that are apathetic about it (not calling you apathetic), but it does to me. It's called spreading the memes. Not those stupid internet memes, but actual memes. Thanks Kojima!

​

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

Said by the goal poster who sits on his butt and does nothing, but goal post. If you want to quit, be my guest. It would not surprise me. You really didn't listen to my other posts. I'm aware of those that don't listen. If they don't listen, that consequences on it. I won't lose sleep over them. Sooner or later, it'll come back to bite them. That's why it's best to get them as soon you can.

My main concern are those with addiction or gambling tendencies. They are the ones that really need help. Or those are really young age and are peer pressured into doing something they shouldn't be doing.

Oh I'm sorry is the person who keeps saying how he doesn't care and won't listen to any-one else's posts now upset that I apparently didn't listen to yours?

I hate the bullshit going on but I know this is a losing fight. I'm here to lose but it is naïve to suggest the loss isn't already coming and anything going on so far is only a small victory delaying the loss. Companies innovate constantly in the worst way to actually make this microtransaction stuff and bullshit worse. We kill one strain and they will find something more virulent and worse to come back with.

 

[BrawlMan]

Oh I'm sorry is the person who keeps saying how he doesn't care and won't listen to any-one else's posts now upset that I apparently didn't listen to yours?

I hate the bullshit going on but I know this is a losing fight. I'm here to lose but it is naïve to suggest the loss isn't already coming and anything going on so far is only a small victory delaying the loss. Companies innovate constantly in the worst way to actually make this microtransaction stuff and bullshit worse. We kill one strain and they will find something more virulent and worse to come back with.

Your pathetic point?

And yet you're happy to make excuses or defend people who get upset at politics in video games they don't agree with. You're more than happy to make excuses or defend jackasses get upset just because the lead protagonist is not a white male, female, or is a person of color. You really have no legs to stand on. All you ever do is quit and make excuses. Your words fall on deaf ears.

 

[I can't enter my old name]

On the one hand yes, the P2W is put under a magnifier and you'd think afterwards it'll be easier to move on and let it be. On the other hand some people claim streaming just advertises it more and is roughly the equivalent of building casinos next to schools or whatever.

It's true though. Just like any game can be fun with friends, an entertaining streamer can make a game more entertaining. That's advertisement and it's why so many games got big through twitch.

90% of players will leave whether the game is pay-to-win or not, but the problem is that instead of having 10,000 whales sticking around, you now have 50,000 or 100,000 whales. Whales are not going to invest in a dead MMO, so a healthy population count keeps them spending. Plus, other companies will look at the huge initial playercount and become more emboldened.

 

[Silvanus]

"Giving up" implies that there's anything to actually be done. "Surrender" implies there was ever a battle that could've been won.

Upon occasion-- not often, but on occasion-- publishers have been compelled by public pressure to temper, reduce, or even remove elements of their outrageous monetisation. These outcomes are always welcome, are beneficial to the products and the art... and become less likely the more people adopt your approach.

 

[wings012]

I personally just stick to my principles of speaking out against such practices that I'm against, and try my best not to spend any money to support this sort of thing.

But I also do know full well that I'm pissing into the ocean. My actions as an individual probably mean fuck all. I can't even convince my normie friend to not play Diablo Immortal and it seems like he's enjoying himself anyway. He might even spend money on it. He literally gives no fucks about how the game industry works, what predatory practices are and what have you.

But y'know what, fuck him. I'm still going to talk shit about pay 2 win, mobile shit and bad AAA practices where applicable, though I'm also not expecting anything to come out of it. And there's nothing wrong with that. No need to harp on someone for just living by his principles, even if it does seem futile if you look at the big picture.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I'm pretty anti-mobile.
I mean I do try and play mobile games and hunt through the market for ones not awful but each time I swear I come back with even less games that are even worth trying (Also I'm not counting mobile ports because most of those are inferior on mobile than on other platforms).

Also probably not actually tablet games as phone vs tablet wise my present phone which cost the same as my tablet and I bought then about 2 months apart is actually spec wise worse than the phone (Phone is 6gb ram tablet is 4 gb ram)

Exactly. I don't touch mobile games, exploitative DLC, and am anti all the exploitative business practices in the industry. I'm just not delusional enough to honestly think that me NOT buying into this garbage when there's 10,000 more people who will for every 1 person like me who doesn't is actually doing to do anything whatsoever. People have been saying "VOTE WITH YOUR WALLETS!!!" for decades and this exploitative garbage has only grown more and more popular. People who claim that there's something that can be done never actually do anything because they in truth don't actually care and are just acting like they do to look down on others and feel superior.

The best "mobile" games are the digital board games. You pay the one time price and you have the game. Some of the games have expansions as their board game counterparts do as well that you can pay more for obviously, but there's no loot boxes or pay2win mechanics. I currently have on my phone 7 Wonders, Baseball Highlights 2045, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Slay the Spire (technically not a board game but basically a board game), Terraforming Mars, Ticket to Ride, Through the Ages, and D&D Lords of Waterdeep. And I'm not even sure if I spent a single dollar of my money on these games as I do the Google Opinion Rewards app that gives you money for doing surveys and I spend all that on digital board games because there's nothing else for me to even buy with Google Play money.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I just found this and had to laugh. 14 years ago. They were making webcomics about the very thing I talked about 14 FREAKING years ago.



If this doesn't prove to everyone that the battle was lost beyond all hope a LONG time ago you're just being unreasonable.

 

[Kyrian007]

I just found this and had to laugh. 14 years ago. They were making webcomics about the very thing I talked about 14 FREAKING years ago.

View attachment 6348

If this doesn't prove to everyone that the battle was lost beyond all hope a LONG time ago you're just being unreasonable.

Wow, VG Cats. I haven't thought about that comic in years. But I remember that one, AND the point they were making with it. All through this thread, you have been saying basically "might as well do nothing, nothing is going to change anything." And you have been basically accusing anyone who says we have to fight back of "virtue signaling." And then you pick this particular comic to make your point.

Potatamoto = Miyamoto... 2008, the Nintendo Wii. The peas represented "core Nintendo fans" Miyamoto abandoned when everybody's grandma discovered Wii bowling and the Wii "abandoned" that "gamer core" audience. But is someone forgetting what ACTUALLY happened next? The Wii U failed miserably and then Potatamoto decided to find a way to bridge the old audience with the new one (the Switch) and once again found himself back in the graces of many of the now well fed peas as well as swimming in money.

So, "voting with your wallet" doesn't work? Because I, and apparently a lot of other Nintendo fans, never did buy that Wii U. So all I can infer is that maybe you've never changed anything by voting with your wallet... but I have. Maybe it would happen more often if more people learned that lesson.