PBS Game/Show Talks Harmful Male Stereotypes in Games

[Thaluikhain]

Though he say it's not what he wants towards the end, he's verging into false equivalency territory there.

Having said that, there are serious issues with how masculinity is portrayed. I do not accept the "disposable gender" idea, men get killed off because men are seen as being warriors. Now, if games were predominately about female characters killing male mooks, that'd be a problem.

But, like he says, men are seen as leaders. The soldiers have to be men because men are seen as soldiers. Now, he says that men "have to be" leaders, which is missing the point a little. Men are seen as automatically being best qualified, it's that they always can be leaders, or anything else seem as important, really.

Anyhoo, OtT male characters are wish-fulfillment for male gamers. I don't see how you can have a wish fulfillment character without it being rather awful in many ways, though perhaps it could be balanced better.

 

[DrunkenElfMage]

Women can do something to about looking more attractive. Aside from the gym, it's called plastic surgery. Both men and women can decide to enhance themselves through medical procedures. But there's no reason to discount someone's low self-esteem because they're not utterly ripped like Chris Redfield or Kratos. However, it seems to me that the average gamer (male or female) can mostly realize that video games show a highly sexualized and over-idealized versions of both genders and just go with it. I think most of the complaining comes from people with an agenda to push, and video games are just there newest access route.

Plastic surgery is extremely painful, expensive, sometimes life threatening and seems a little more extreme than having to go to the gym more often.

The female figures and male figures are often both over-idealized versions in video games, correct. Both sexualized? REALLY debatable. Both are technically sexy, correct, but how many games recently have you played where the camera in a cutscene trails up the body of a naked woman, like in the first cutscene of the new Hitman game. Now how many times does that happen with a guy? Hardly ever. Or the way Catwoman and Harley Quinn walk in the Arkham City, with the camera taking every chance it can to zoom in to their ass to show it shake back and forth.

Both forms are over idealized to be sure. But just because a character is sexy doesn't mean they are sexualized.

 

[saltyanon]

Games need feminism

No. We need equality.

 

[DrunkenElfMage]

Games need feminism

No. We need equality.

Feminism refers to approaching politics and social behavior from a female perspective, as opposed to the traditionally male perspective that society started from.

Since most games have been made by men leading the creative process, saying that games need equality would also mean that games need feminism. Feminism is a subset of equality.

 

[Therumancer]

I've brought this up beforehand on a number of occasions, I find it amusing that we're just now seeing web personalities seriously approach the issue in regards to gaming.

All told though it's an argument that has been around since people started bickering about fantasy artwork and things like He-Man action figures.

At the end of the day though fantasy is just that, fantasy, and characters tend to represent an idea, whether it's in books, movies, video games, or sculpted plastic. In general no real guy or girl is going to look as good as something people dream up as a paragon of sorts. Complaining about how this creates real world problems is kind of stupid since anyone who has trouble differentiating fantasy from reality to the extent of it becoming a problem has issues well beyond video games, comics, or whatever else. Physical ideals have been around since the ancient artwork, and I doubt many people stopped to say "you know, that statue of Hercules needs to go, because it encourages an unhealthy ideal..." to say nothing of some of the statues done of actual kings who still might be around when they were made, which makes me wonder how many people got fed to lions for commenting that the king didn't really have arms bigger around than his head (though this is neither here nor there, just me trying to be funny).

To be honest with health I have less concern with TV, movies, games, and such presenting a physical ideal in fantasy than I do with certain athletes and the like who have done dangerous things to get to that point, and then presented themselves as an achievable goal as they pimp products at GNC or whatever. In general those athletes tend to be motivated by money in real world competition, not by trying to match their favorite comic character. Of course we are doing some things to crack down on this nowadays with all the tests for athletes and the like.


I consider things like this a lot more dangerous than anything presented in fantasy:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMXi-uwNGc0

To be fair when Arnie looked like that the rules about 'roids were a lot different, and people didn't know as much about the risks. Him coming clean about it and his health issues as a result have helped a lot. The thing is pretending that someone could look like Arnie does in those videos is cool, but saying that you can look like that for real without hurting yourself... well, that's different. Arnie still did a ton of work, no denying that, he outperformed people at a time when everyone else was on the same stuff, but the actual results were not something that can be done safely.

On some levels I admit I find that disappointing, Arnie used to be one of my heroes when I was younger because I thought it was possible to look like an action figure IRL largely because of him... but well... decades later we've seen the reality.

 

[Lieju]

Having said that, there are serious issues with how masculinity is portrayed. I do not accept the "disposable gender" idea, men get killed off because men are seen as being warriors.

Also it's not that men are seen as disposable, it's that certain kinds of men are seen as disposable. We don't see well-developed and characterised female characters sending all these canon-fodder-men to battle; we still have men being in control and having other options.

I'd love to see more female enemies and villains, but I don't buy into the 'disposable gender'-idea.
This idea of disposability is more of a class-issue than gender.

 

[Lieju]

-Double post due to connection issues-

 

[Baldr]

Games need feminism

No. We need equality.

Feminism refers to approaching politics and social behavior from a female perspective, as opposed to the traditionally male perspective that society started from.

Since most games have been made by men leading the creative process, saying that games need equality would also mean that games need feminism. Feminism is a subset of equality.

Unless it is Third Wave/Post Feminism, traditional feminism is not about pure equality and very much anti-male.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Unless it is Third Wave/Post Feminism, traditional feminism is not about pure equality and very much anti-male.

Er...define "traditional feminism" there, cause that's very much not true for most mainstream feminism.

 

[sweetylnumb]

PBS Game/Show Talks Harmful Male Stereotypes in Games


Not everyone can be a tasty stack of man-muscle like Marcus Fenix, and that might hurt your self-esteem.

A real man bulges out of his orange tank top, glistening with sweat and chewing on a cigar. Maybe he wears heavy, futuristic armor that barely contains his biceps, his face craggy with scars from brutal fights. Even better, he is stoically silent, instantly adapting from life as a theoretical physicist to defeat aliens and military alike with his trusty crowbar. PBS Game/Show suggests that these hyper-masculine ideals are not just unattainable fantasy, but also possibly harmful.

The latest video from PBS Game/Show tackles the question of how videogame stereotypes can be harmful to men. Stereotypes for videogame protagonists include an exaggerated physique, stoic silence, and a complete mental imperviousness to trauma or guilt. Emotion, vulnerability, and stress are all removed from these heroes, lest they seem less masculine. The video notes that distorted body image can contribute to eating disorders like anorexia and bulimia, and that an estimated 10-15% of eating disorder sufferers are men. Rates of eating disorders among men are on the rise, and so is muscle dysmorphia, the unhealthy use of steroids and exercise in the pursuit of an unattainable ideal.

Stock videogame enemies are also largely men. Faceless wave after wave of men are regularly thrown against our Killbot hero to be dispatched. The video introduces the idea of the expendable or disposable male, applying concepts from sociology and anthropology to explain how society reinforces the idea that men should sacrifice themselves for the protection of children and women.

The episode continues the dialogue started in a previous video which asked whether Tropes vs Women in Video Games [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UrazpEFb9w] Kickstarter and web series.

PBS Game/Show is a production of Mr. Rogers' autotune video [http://pbsdigitalstudios.tumblr.com/]. At the 2013 Webby Awards, PBS Digital Studios received four Webby Awards and three Webby People's Voice Awards.

Source: YouTube [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrActT_7X6U]

Permalink

Wait, so mens problems matter, even when their problem is being TEN WHOLE PERCENT of eating disorder sufferers? But its a minority! (I'm sarcastically referring to people saying women in gaming don't matter becuase they arn't at least half of the intended audience)

In all seriousness though, this can only be a good thing. Maybe if we start talking about EVERYONES problems (even those white male first world problems), people might be more inclined to be more understanding when people bring up sexism or racism.



But probably not. They'll probably just be like SEE SEE WE HAVE PROBLEMS LOOK AT OUR PROBLEMS

Nevermind.

 

[saltyanon]

Games need feminism

No. We need equality.

Feminism refers to approaching politics and social behavior from a female perspective, as opposed to the traditionally male perspective that society started from.

Since most games have been made by men leading the creative process, saying that games need equality would also mean that games need feminism. Feminism is a subset of equality.

I like how SJW want to stop the use of "gendered" words yet, label their "cause" with one.

Come back and tell me feminism encompasses equality when the word rape can apply to men as well.

 

[The_Echo]

Has anyone solved that little problem where women on XBL and PSN and even on the PC get random messages to get their tits out or propositions for bathroom sex?

I'm just saying, that seems to have been lost among this whole thing about unrealistic proportions.

Frankly that's not a problem with games, but rather their communities. It's a problem with people, and merits entirely different conversations.

 

[Seventh Actuality]

The key thing to remember when looking at male stereotypes is that they exist because they appeal to men - or to the shitty ideas about masculinity that a lot of men aspire to - unlike female stereotypes, which appeal to men and alienate women. It doesn't make it okay, but it's important to know that even when both genders get shafted, it's not because things are 'equal', it's because of the same shitty patriarchal attitudes in both cases.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Come back and tell me feminism encompasses equality when the word rape can apply to men as well.

Er, the word can apply to men as well.

 

[saltyanon]

Come back and tell me feminism encompasses equality when the word rape can apply to men as well.

Er, the word can apply to men as well.

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

 

[james.sponge]

Why is what this jackass says newsworthy? No, seriously. Why should I give a damn what this person has to say about video games. I'm sick of seeing this kind of bullshit. If there's a bunch of ladies out there with a severe persecution complex, that's bad enough. Last thing we need is a bunch of men crying about how the muscles in a game triggered their inferiority complex.
It's about time we all grew up, developed some maturity and learned to distinguish between fiction and reality. When did humanity become such a big group of whiners?

Ever since complaining and whining about such things brings profit and recognition?

 

[Andy of Comix Inc]

This is the worst thing. Men may suffer from self-esteem issues, and that's just terrible, yes. But sexism is a social institution and there is no socially instituted sexism against men. The men in games may be what men want (and can't) be, but the women in games are what those men want. "Male gaze," right? The men here aren't objectified in the same way because they're designed so the player can be them.

It's not a harmful fantasy in the same way oversexualized women is; the men aren't goals, the men aren't objects, they're the avatar for you. And maybe that is offensive a concept in the same way it's offensive to think that, say... I mean, I'm the target audience for Michael Bay's Transformers and apparently Shia LaBeouf is who I'm meant to identify with. That is "offensive," in a way, yes. But it's not damaging in quite the same way.

...also, let's get this out of the way. Yes, men can get raped. No, rape culture does not apply to men. Again, it's all social institutions and beliefs and what have you that drives this stuff. In the same way you can be "racist" towards white people, but there is not racism against white people, you can be "sexist" towards men, but there is no sexism towards men. Misandry is not a societal disease in the same way misogyny is. Not even close. (And I know a lot of people will disagree, but I'm assuming those who do spend most of their time shielded from it.)

 

[Anja Bech]

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

First of all, why do you spell women like that? *puzzled* Second, you must have had some really bad experience with people labeling themselves as feminists because there's a lot of animosity going on there.

I have to agree with you though; it's total fucking bullshit saying that a man can't get raped by a woman. Of course he fucking can! But saying that it's post-modern feminisms fault is just wrong. It almost sounds like you think that just because someone supports equallity and labels themself a feminist in the process they are out to get men. Granted, some women really are 'out to get men', but they are in the vocal minority. Most of us really believe in equality, not in men gatting shafted so we can have more rights.

On a side note - please please please give me more female enemies. Not women in skimpy outfits limberly kicking me in the face above their own head as if they don't have a spine but women soldiers, mercenaries, etc. It seem implausible that I only have male enemies.

 

[bjj hero]

It can be very damaging to anyone with self image problems. That has sprouted up a lot more in recent years than it did in previous generations. Just like unrealistic expectations of beauty can negatively effect the self image of a girl, the same can be said for boys. Most men are depicted in such a way that it's unattainable. The only reason it's a subject that is never breached is simply because even though body image problems are becoming more common for males, it's still far far less common compared to women.

I wonder if a case of it being actually less than women or just less admitted to. To an extent I mean.

I'd say you're absolutely right- I don't see why men as a whole would be happier with their bodies than women as a whole. We're aiming for different end goals, but they're both equally unattainable.

Got to disagree there. The giant tits/tiny waist/gravity defying ass held up for women is unattainable for most. Being a guy with a good physique is within most mens grasp. I have a good physique because I eat right and exercise regularly. It takes work, although it doesnt feel like work because its enjoyable and rewarding.

It drives me mad when some overweight guy who lives on cheetos and xbox tells me im lucky because i can eat without putting on weight. No I just use the calories I take on with exercise. If you use more calories than you consume you will lose weight. Simple math. If you exercise you become stronger and fitter and your physique will improve.

Its a very different issue than womens unrealistic proportions. One requires work. The other surgery and probably starvation.