PBS Game/Show Talks Harmful Male Stereotypes in Games

[WindKnight]

Has anyone solved that little problem where women on XBL and PSN and even on the PC get random messages to get their tits out or propositions for bathroom sex?

I'm just saying, that seems to have been lost among this whole thing about unrealistic proportions.

checjk out the video linked in the article. Especially take note of how he says this isn't a 'p***ing contest about who has it worse.'

 

[Ichigo]

Can we also agree, that video games are a way to get out off your own reality and dive into a place to do things you can´t do in real life. That means also playing a moving muscle mountain or giant titts on legs. Killing stuff or do crazy shit like katamari. I understand if people say i want more games where i play normal people doing normal things, like maybe sims or farming simulations. And i would also encourage people to do more different games so everyone can like something. But it sounds more and more like: we need to get rid of super ridicules manly protagonists or sex objects because of reasons. People should be able to play whatever they like. If others don´t like it they should be able to play their games instead.

 

[saltyanon]

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

First of all, why do you spell women like that? *puzzled* Second, you must have had some really bad experience with people labeling themselves as feminists because there's a lot of animosity going on there.

I have to agree with you though; it's total fucking bullshit saying that a man can't get raped by a woman. Of course he fucking can! But saying that it's post-modern feminisms fault is just wrong. It almost sounds like you think that just because someone supports equallity and labels themself a feminist in the process they are out to get men. Granted, some women really are 'out to get men', but they are in the vocal minority. Most of us really believe in equality, not in men gatting shafted so we can have more rights.

On a side note - please please please give me more female enemies. Not women in skimpy outfits limberly kicking me in the face above their own head as if they don't have a spine but women soldiers, mercenaries, etc. It seem implausible that I only have male enemies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn

Sounds much better/less sillier than woperdaughter if you ask me. Besides, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by using the utterly misogynistic word "woman".

 

[Deshin]

But the difference is that they CAN achieve that if they're willing to get off their lazy behinds and hit the gym. It's not like females thinking "oh no I'll never be pretty and I'll never have those curvy breasts/hips" because they can't really help being born with a certain body shape and they can't really help their beauty (crazy make-up fanatics come to mind).

Males can actually DO something about it, and believe me more guys definitely need to start hitting the gym (looking at your severe obesity issues America). Steroids are obviously retarded and muscle dysmorphia is pretty rare, but in most scenarios I would say idealized male heroes have done more good than harm for males.

You don't have to bulk-up like a tank, I would say ladies are more attracted to lean/toned bodies these days.

So on the one hand you give women a pass due to not being born with the right body shape but tell men to get off their asses and there's no excuse? Ok.

Thing is though for most healthy men masculine attractiveness is easily obtainable, a man just needs to eat well, exercise a bit and put a bit of thought into grooming and appearance. A man doesn't need to be Adonian or built like Marcus Fenix, in fact thats not all that appealing to a lot of men and women. Athletic looking is enough, clean and tidy clothes is enough and being clean and well groomed is enough (obviously social circles and lifestyle decide what well dressed and well groomed actually are).

Women unfortunately have a much harder time of it and the expectations are often not even natural, a man can take care of what he is given but a women might have to do something drastic like ridiculous diets or surgery to confirm to some expectations.

Easily obtainable? Yeah ok sure.

Lemme tell ya both why you're just contributing to the problem here, and I'm going to use myself as an example. (oh fun)

Now I don't think by any means I'm an ugly person but no way in hell do I categorise in the typical definitions of "male attractiveness" that games push and you both seem to think is something that's easily obtainable. First off I'm short, I'm 5'4. That's something I can't help; my father's short, my grandfather was short, my uncles are short, it's simple genetics. It's a family in-joke that whenever there's a wedding if we take a group shot with the bride we'd be mistaken for the cover of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. It's not a big deal because I live on Malta which has been officially classified as having the shortest men in Europe. No problem when everyone around you is the same, right? Oh wait, no, because it's 2013 and we aren't all just sitting around in our individual tribes unable to cross land and sea. So whenever I see movies or games depicting the pinacle of masculinity to be physical height that's already making me feel slightly inferior and no amount of "getting off my ass" will fix that.

Second point, my teeth are crooked. I take good care of them and they're white and healthy, but it still falls into the "this is not beautiful" department. Could I have fixed it when I was younger? Probably, if we had the money at the time, but we didn't so here I am. Could I fix them now? I don't want a dentist yanking out perfectly strong and healthy teeth just to conform to some universal, media-induced stigma of what is passable for a pretty smile. When I was younger it was harder to deal with, to the point of for a good few years I actually stopped smiling out of embarassment. It really hurt one day when a friend of my then girlfriend said "*redacted* was right, you never smile", hearing that a person who I was the happiest around said that really hit me hard.

Now third point, my actual body. I'm not fat but at the same time I know I'm not going to be a hunk. I'm not built for it vertically, it's as simple as that. If I were proportionally equivalent to some stereotypical 6'2 brick shithouse I'd still have smaller muscles and people equate smaller with "not as good as" because equivalency goes right out the window in such matters. I go to the gym, I stay active, I eat right, I try out new sports periodically (martial arts and gymnastics being the two I stuck with the longest) so I have been lean/toned quite often throughout my life but it's still a lean/toned physique draped over a small frame so it's not as noticable.

So one long wall of text later? My point is for some men no matter WHAT they do they won't fit into the conventional male stereotype of attractiveness. I overcame a lot of personal obstacles when I just sat down and accepted the fact I am who I am and I have to work within those limitations. That there is such a thing as an unrealistic expectation and that certain figures are out of my reach. Have a video to go along with it if you have half an hour spare to show how brainwashed people are when it comes to matters like this. Yeah I know Penn & Teller aren't a legit, viable source but they still do a good job of pointint out certain views that are without merit.

 

[Yopaz]

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

That's a common misconception. By UK law and possibly some other countries too a woman can't rape another woman nor can a woman rape a man. That's just how the law is written, not the actual meaning of rape. By the definition of rape a female teacher having sex with a male student is considered rape because she's got authority over the student. Heck, even a girl surprising her boyfriend with a morning blowjob while he's asleep can be considered rape because he's not able to consent to it because he's asleep. The law isn't the definition.

First of all, why do you spell women like that?

It's a feminism thing. Females shouldn't be defined partially through the masculine word man such as they are with the "man" ending in woman, thus they should name themselves womyn. The same goes for human, why should man define humans?

 

[Varrdy]

I think Skyrim nailed it pretty well by barely paying attention to gender at all. There are powerful men and weak women but there are also powerful women and weak men. I don't recall an instance in the game where any character made any kind of comment about someone's gender in a positive or negative way. Women have power here, men have power there; some women swing bloody great warhammers whilst some men use daggers and magic.

While the armour sets are different depending on gender, at least the female versions are actually sensible and, unlike a lot of games, are not just chainmail and leather lingerie! I'm no prude but there's a time and a place, you know?

The only place it falls down is the body-type - male warriors are all huge-great brick shit-houses where even characters like Mjoll the Lioness are all svelte and sexy.

I suppose you can't have it all...

 

[Varrdy]

But the difference is that they CAN achieve that if they're willing to get off their lazy behinds and hit the gym. It's not like females thinking "oh no I'll never be pretty and I'll never have those curvy breasts/hips" because they can't really help being born with a certain body shape and they can't really help their beauty (crazy make-up fanatics come to mind).

Males can actually DO something about it, and believe me more guys definitely need to start hitting the gym (looking at your severe obesity issues America). Steroids are obviously retarded and muscle dysmorphia is pretty rare, but in most scenarios I would say idealized male heroes have done more good than harm for males.

You don't have to bulk-up like a tank, I would say ladies are more attracted to lean/toned bodies these days.

Sooo...men have to put in the effort whereas women don't because they're just born that way? Way to skewer feminism and women in general, there! If that's the case, why does the gym I go to have as many women as men in it? Are they just there to make up the numbers? Would their time be better spent in the nail bar next door?

Stating that men have to lose the fat and shape-up is fine but asserting that women don't because they shouldn't have to confirm to some kind of ideal or deny what nature gave them is as hypocritical as is flat-out wrong. It could also be classed as a sexist attitude, by the way.

Anyway, moving-on...

Ten weeks ago I got off my "lazy" behind and started using a gym. Was I fat? Not really - I am quite the opposite. I'm tall and have arms like twigs but a diet of beer and whatever I felt like eating was starting to add a bit of padding around the midriff and chest. So, motivated by vanity and several jibes from a certain woman about my weight / lack of muscle, I started to hit the weights and cross-trainer. I improved my diet (although I still drink beer!) and started to drink protein shakes that were recommended by a gym-going colleague of mine.

If it's so easy for men to shape-up, I should be ripped to the tits by now, right?

Nope! While I cannot deny that it's working, all I have to show after ten weeks of effort (and I am going 3-4 times a week and each session is at least an hour and a half so I'm not skiving!) is a slightly reduced stomach / love-handles and the beginnings of muscle definition around my arms and shoulders. I can see it but to everyone else, I'm just the same as I always was.

I will not give up and I will press on but the point I am trying to make is that it's just as hard work for men as it is for women to get in shape, regardless of what body shape they were born with!

 

[Varrdy]

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on that one. If a woman uses a strap-on to reduce a man's arse to burger-meat without his consent, it's rape.

 

[CHUD]

And a womens expectations are might be raised when admiring those hunks too.

Doubt it. Male protagonists are designed so that men will want to be them, NOT so women will want them. If they were designed for the "female gaze" - they would look like the man-candy from FREE (the anime).

 

[Psychobabble]

Damn right mate! I'm so sick of having to be the manly man in games all the time! What about my softer side and my FEEWINGS!?

Okay I'm off to light some candles, have a hot bubble bath and a good cry. .... or not.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

This is starting to annoy me. How is this any different from the argument that violent video game makes violent people? I know the difference between fantasy and reality and I always have (except maybe when I was like, five). It's pretty hateful and judgmental to assume that while it may not affect me, it's "wrong" because the rest of the world isn't as advanced as I am. I noticed this attitude most recently with professional game journalists asking "what message does this send?" regarding the female characters in GTA 5. It's just so damn smug.

 

[J Tyran]

Easily obtainable? Yeah ok sure...(snipped for size)

I have not got time to watch a 30min video at the moment but I will get around it later, but regarding your post. Without trying to be an armchair psychologist I would suggest your perceptions about height are making you more sensitive than you need to be about it, sure 5,4 is far from a titanic height but its not to bad. The way you dress and carry yourself can help, I would say your height is more along the lines of being "compact" rather than short. There is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise I know, its not that easy for people to just pick themselves up by the scruff of their neck and change their perceptions about themselves but you should really try and think it over and realise your height is fine.

If you want an example of that look at Richard Hammond (the guy from Top Gear), he is about 5,6 or so yet he is considered highly attractive by men and women. Tom Cruise and Robert Downey Jr are not that tall either, well turned out compact guys can be as attractive as someone thats 6ft tall.

The teeth situation is a but more complicated, there is no easy or inexpensive fix for that. As you point out the biggest problem there isn't the actual teeth its the way your sensitive about it and do not smile, this obviously gives the impression you are not the happiest person in the world. Attitude and perceived attitude is one of the main things about what makes a person attractive or not, unfortunately the only thing that could be done about it is either have them straightened or try and make the most of it. You dont need to have them taken out as adults can wear dental braces but it takes a long time, there are some faster methods of bracing but they are more expensive. Attractiveness aside though it might be worth thinking about as crooked teeth can cause problems in some cases, its harder to keep them clean and carries the risk of decay and cavities and it can make you more likely to loose teeth accidently. As you do martial arts thats definitely something to think about.

Anyway I admire your honesty and ability to admit the way the way you feel about things and I do get your point, saying it was "easy" for men to fit into perceptions and expectations about attractiveness is a bit inaccurate. I guess what I should have said that its not as challenging as some people think and often easier for men than it is women.

 

[Baresark]

It can be very damaging to anyone with self image problems. That has sprouted up a lot more in recent years than it did in previous generations. Just like unrealistic expectations of beauty can negatively effect the self image of a girl, the same can be said for boys. Most men are depicted in such a way that it's unattainable. The only reason it's a subject that is never breached is simply because even though body image problems are becoming more common for males, it's still far far less common compared to women.

I wonder if a case of it being actually less than women or just less admitted to. To an extent I mean.

It's a two fold problem. One, males aren't necessarily taught stoicism, but a lot of guys look up to men with this particular feature. So, even if they are having severe problems they most likely will not admit to it. The other part is that it's not looked for as much as it is in the female population. There are warning signs for it just like there are for women. So, even if a male is having self image problems, even if he is seeking help in some situations, it's simply not taken as seriously as it is with the female population with this issue.

Come back and tell me feminism encompasses equality when the word rape can apply to men as well.

Er, the word can apply to men as well.

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

I find the user of the statement, "men are the ones holding power", as a quick go to in a debate very annoying. I'm not attacking you at all, but I think you would have to agree that it's so completely vague as to be useless. Who is "holding power" is very subjective and changes from hand to hand regularly in any situation. The reality is that it's a lousy point because it sounds like men explicitly hold power all the time and this never changes. This is wrong. It's also commonly used in reference to white men, which means that all white men are holding power over everyone else, and this is an outright lie. It's a generalization that has no place in a modern educated world. Sure, lots of white men have held lots of power since the beginning of mankind, also some not so white men, and I'm sure in small numbers, women have also held power over people. I'm not even arguing that statistically in history, this "holding of power" has not fallen mostly on white men, at least in the civilized world. But this is not accurate because I am a white guy who has never held any sway over anyone else. More importantly, I have never known a another Caucasian male that has had opportunities over anyone else based on the fact that they are either white or male.

I'm ranting, sorry. I just can't stand such generalization. It's taken as "common knowledge" but I cannot in good conscience conceded that point. The majority of Caucasian male's have been in the exact same position as most other people. The media leads to a popular opinion that the we have all the power, but we don't. Some of us do, but we are not more powerful simply because we share a few common physical features, and the people who are holding power at any given point in time are not sharing it with me just because of those common physical features.

Also, just for fun, I can think of a way a man can be raped by a woman. Tied down naked flat on their back forced to ingest Viagra. It's convoluted and contrived, but not impossible. Or, they can be sedated, tied down and sodomized by a woman. Still contrived, but still possible. I mean, the truth is, I don't know why anyone would ever rape anyone else, but then I'm not mentally disturbed. Someone who is not mentally disturbed cannot in fact understand what it's like to have that ailment. It's impossible. I know rape is about power over another person, still vague and annoying, but at least it is more pronounced in its use that way. But that need for power isn't always overt. It's often times subconscious.... and there I go raving like a mad man again. I digress. Like I said, I'm not attacking so much as I'm interested in open debate without the use of ultra vague statements like I have been raving about for the last few minutes.

 

[saltyanon]

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

Sorry but I am calling bullshit on that one. If a woman uses a strap-on to reduce a man's arse to burger-meat without his consent, it's rape.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/frequently-asked-questions/ucr_faqs

But then again, that's just a reporting system so let's give them the benefit of the doubt. So instead, google about Mary P. Koss.

Did you also know that a male partner withholding sex can be considered domestic violence?

 

[Varrdy]

Did you also know that a male partner withholding sex can be considered domestic violence?

Wait, what?!? Are you serious? Actually, considering some of the crap I've heard lately, I can believe it, even if I still think it's bonkers!

Can't men just cry "headache" too?

 

[gargantual]

I think the muscular male hero stereotype is equally damaging. I already have a low self esteem, always have, but I can see how some guys might get a little depressed thinking about how they'll never achieve what their favourite characters do every couple of minutes.

And a womens expectations are might be raised when admiring those hunks too.

I hate to see the games medium follow what the TV and films medium did and glorify to extremes the perfect male and female specimens, giving the consumer unrealistic expectations of what we should be like.

Hah. Look how hard it was for Stan Lee to pitch Spiderman years ago. Even back then NOOOBODY wanted a young man who was humble and had to figure things out, or whose responsibilities grounded him. A male protagonist who was still driven by a crush, but yet a less counterproductive one. (legacy wise)

Even the 1st Die Hard, the director wanted a dirty harry and got a more effective John McClane out of someone who wasn't poker faced had to admit he didn't have all the answers.

Karate Kid too, look I know these are all flicks rather than games, but it also asks the question in fictional culture As much as we love playing and being around synthetic idealized folks. because the real world counterparts wouldn't give a crap or are too dangerous to be around.

How often do we celebrate struggling grounded heroes that make accomplishments in action adventure more visceral and thought provoking? We put people on too high a pedestal in our celeb culture.

 

[Petromir]

If you want an example of that look at Richard Hammond (the guy from Top Gear), he is about 5,6 or so yet he is considered highly attractive by men and women. Tom Cruise and Robert Downey Jr are not that tall either, well turned out compact guys can be as attractive as someone thats 6ft tall.

Ahh Cherry picking from one side only to make a point.

The same can be said for a number of women who fall outside what would normally be considered the perfect physical example of a woman.

And to a point the problem isnt the pressure to look like Tom Cruise its the pressure to look like the oversized gorrilas that some parts of the gaming and other media push as the peak of male phisical perfection. Thta level of muscle many of us would require setroid abuse to the extent that our balls however sized beforehand would shirnk so small as to become miniture black holes.

On the main topic I'd be interested to know if the figures have been adjusted for reportage bias (i.e women are more likely to admit to such things than men even on anomious surveys).

On the feminism discussion side track I'm not a fan of the term as I beleive it risks bringing in a subtle bias, however unitentional.

 

[gargantual]

It can be very damaging to anyone with self image problems. That has sprouted up a lot more in recent years than it did in previous generations. Just like unrealistic expectations of beauty can negatively effect the self image of a girl, the same can be said for boys. Most men are depicted in such a way that it's unattainable. The only reason it's a subject that is never breached is simply because even though body image problems are becoming more common for males, it's still far far less common compared to women.

I wonder if a case of it being actually less than women or just less admitted to. To an extent I mean.

It's a two fold problem. One, males aren't necessarily taught stoicism, but a lot of guys look up to men with this particular feature. So, even if they are having severe problems they most likely will not admit to it. The other part is that it's not looked for as much as it is in the female population. There are warning signs for it just like there are for women. So, even if a male is having self image problems, even if he is seeking help in some situations, it's simply not taken as seriously as it is with the female population with this issue.

Come back and tell me feminism encompasses equality when the word rape can apply to men as well.

Er, the word can apply to men as well.

Now, pardon me for I wasn't being clear. Men can only get sexually assaulted, never raped by womyn, according to court, and according to post-modern feminism, the brand of feminism SJW and people like the guy in the vid are supporting, men can never be raped because men are the ones holding power etc.

A man can get anally raped by another man i.e. sodomized, but a man can never ever be raped by womyn.

I find the user of the statement, "men are the ones holding power", as a quick go to in a debate very annoying. I'm not attacking you at all, but I think you would have to agree that it's so completely vague as to be useless. Who is "holding power" is very subjective and changes from hand to hand regularly in any situation. The reality is that it's a lousy point because it sounds like men explicitly hold power all the time and this never changes. This is wrong. It's also commonly used in reference to white men, which means that all white men are holding power over everyone else, and this is an outright lie. It's a generalization that has no place in a modern educated world. Sure, lots of white men have held lots of power since the beginning of mankind, also some not so white men, and I'm sure in small numbers, women have also held power over people. I'm not even arguing that statistically in history, this "holding of power" has not fallen mostly on white men, at least in the civilized world. But this is not accurate because I am a white guy who has never held any sway over anyone else. More importantly, I have never known a another Caucasian male that has had opportunities over anyone else based on the fact that they are either white or male.

I'm ranting, sorry. I just can't stand such generalization. It's taken as "common knowledge" but I cannot in good conscience conceded that point. The majority of Caucasian male's have been in the exact same position as most other people. The media leads to a popular opinion that the we have all the power, but we don't. Some of us do, but we are not more powerful simply because we share a few common physical features, and the people who are holding power at any given point in time are not sharing it with me just because of those common physical features.

Also, just for fun, I can think of a way a man can be raped by a woman. Tied down naked flat on their back forced to ingest Viagra. It's convoluted and contrived, but not impossible. Or, they can be sedated, tied down and sodomized by a woman. Still contrived, but still possible. I mean, the truth is, I don't know why anyone would ever rape anyone else, but then I'm not mentally disturbed. Someone who is not mentally disturbed cannot in fact understand what it's like to have that ailment. It's impossible. I know rape is about power over another person, still vague and annoying, but at least it is more pronounced in its use that way. But that need for power isn't always overt. It's often times subconscious.... and there I go raving like a mad man again. I digress. Like I said, I'm not attacking so much as I'm interested in open debate without the use of ultra vague statements like I have been raving about for the last few minutes.

True true, but its not so much the everyday white man such as yourself. but the cultural favoritism and limits on social access that those in power do perpetuate. No ones mad at you. Those under social pressure just don't like when on the ground level it's brushed off as not existing "oh if only you strived harder."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=derzWWYf3-w I like how louie said it.