people and "Rebellion"

[an annoyed writer]

Okay. Vault, you need to look up the name Howard Bloom. He explains this brilliantly: it's the need to topple the hierarchy and usurp it that is the driving force behind rebellion. the next generation will always want to differentiate itself from its parent, and rebellion is usually the stage it goes through to achieve such means. That's a gross oversimplification of his thesis, but that's the basic point.

 

[Vegosiux]

You know, there are rebels with a cause (who are genuinely upset, displeased and have had enough), and rebels without a cause (who go stick it to the man for no particular reason other than sticking it to the man).

I can respect the former. The latter, I only hope they grow out of it.

 

[Vault101]

Tribalsim? Tribal Sim?

But yeah, it's silly to say we're not made for modern society, we're the ones who made it after all. All parts of it were developed by us. How is it not for us?

I get the impression people who say those things arnt taking into consideration certain things

like feminism..and our chiny tehcnology

 

[darlarosa]

Well I guess it depends on your philosophy.

I think there would be benefits to a reorganization of society (I think the US is too large and too complacent for its own good). I think the confines of our age old systems and traditions make new developement difficult.
Yet I also think a complete social break down could be interesting. Fear and panic....the adrenaline would be amazing. Then there is the death, death in every corner as we rip out the very core of our "humanity" only to become far more human than we ever were before. The Social constructs fall, but they will always be replaced. Most likely worse, and perhaps better. It is nature's way for old things to die to make way for renewal. Hehe I suppose I like the idea of a global Life Day (renew! renew!).

 

[Imthatguy]

Individuals can still be victimized even if it isn't something as harsh as say a concentration camp or being starved. For example when you work for someone they'll typically make large amounts of money off your labor when you only get a very small part of it in your check.

Yes but I believe you where using it in the same context as I.

well depending on context why would I be entitled to any of that money?

if I work in an office am I enetitled to the same paycheck as the CEO? I don;t think so

only if my working conditions and pay are not up to standard

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

No says the man in the White House, it belongs to the poor
No says the man in the Vatican, it belongs to God
No says the man in Moscow, it belongs to everyone

>_> sorry but if we're doing this, we're doing this RIGHT.

No says the man on Wall Street it belongs to the investor.

I'm not sure what I find worse, those that rebel against anything and everything or those that follow blindly while screaming at others to stay in line.

But seriously, Humans aren't made for modern society, so saying that things are inherently wrong in our society is actually pretty accurate.

what are we made for then?....tribalsim?

I think Id rather have all my nice things and not get married off to pump out children

Creating a perfect system made for humans is like trying to fit a hypercube in a round hole.

 

[Imthatguy]

srry double post

 

[BanZeus]

Individuals can still be victimized even if it isn't something as harsh as say a concentration camp or being starved. For example when you work for someone they'll typically make large amounts of money off your labor when you only get a very small part of it in your check.

Yes but I believe you where using it in the same context as I.

well depending on context why would I be entitled to any of that money?

if I work in an office am I enetitled to the same paycheck as the CEO? I don;t think so

only if my working conditions and pay are not up to standard

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

No says the man in the White House, it belongs to the poor
No says the man in the Vatican, it belongs to God
No says the man in Moscow, it belongs to everyone

>_> sorry but if we're doing this, we're doing this RIGHT.

No says the man on Wall Street it belongs to the investor.

I'm not sure what I find worse, those that rebel against anything and everything or those that follow blindly while screaming at others to stay in line.

But seriously, Humans aren't made for modern society, so saying that things are inherently wrong in our society is actually pretty accurate.

what are we made for then?....tribalsim?

I think Id rather have all my nice things and not get married off to pump out children

Creating a perfect system made for humans is like trying to fit a hypercube in a round hole.

In other words: like all of life's problems it can be solved by looking at it from a different perspective and/or applying a lot of lube.

 

[zehydra]

Any rational mysanthrope would be pro-government, not anti-government, because its the government that keeps them in check, and something like rebellion would be quite scary to him/her.

I'm a believer in the idea that every person is born free. Your sovereignty is taken away from you the moment you are born in most countries. They are taught to swear their allegiance to a system, which these days are usually designed to protect some sort of ideal and supposedly the protection of its members.

Nations are not like people. They do not have memories, they do not have a "will", they do not have lives. These are all illusions. Every year, the United States is comprised of different members than of the last. Every year the culture changes slightly. Every year new laws are passed.

The reason I hate it when people say "In the 1940s, we entered World War II" or "We lost in Vietnam", is because most of the time that I hear this, it is not being said by people who were alive for either events. If people are what makes up a country, then how could we say that this is the same country that fought in World War II?

The reason we keep calling them "us" and the reason we keep pushing the United States, regardless of whether or not it is actually good for the citizens involved, is because of legacy and tradition. Both are not what I would consider rational or reasonable reasons to keep any government alive.

Since the politicians are so insistent upon keeping the train running, and most politically active citizens have been indoctrinated since birth, nothing changes.

So every year, children are born, taught to praise the flag and forget that they had any human sovereignty at all, or anything we would call "human rights".

"Human rights" of course will be tossed out the window the second anyone actually gets anything like a secession underway.

So, rebel.

 

[Mr. F]

you know what I don't get?...some peoples absolute fixation on the Idea that any or all Authority figure or part of the "systm" is there for the sole purpose of "keeping them down" or making their lives miserable

the obsession with "rebellion"

or part of the the whole "oh I hate humanity/the government/my country" really the kind of people who "joke" about wishing for the apocolypse because [strike/]their stupid twats[/S] because they have some bizare Idea that theres somthign inherintly wrong with how things are now and atruggling for your survival int he most terrifying situation ever would be somhow better

like challenging your freinds to a one on one death match in the arena!

[spoiler/][/spoiler]

the fact is thanks to all the "evils" of modern life we can actually have things likevideo games and online spaces (like forums) to complain about them! rather than scrawling messaged on safe house walls in blood

ok yes, on the other hand I'm not saying governemtn systms or modern life is god and you should not question anything.....I genally think people can be too apathetic (including me)...especially when to comes to stuff like voting

its jsut when somone starts talking about anarchy or how they hate the "guv-mint" I can't help but think they are probably some teenage twat who doesnt understand what the fuck Anarchy actually is

also because peep show is awsome

One: Spellcheck is your friend. I demand you download googlechrome now. Also, protip, you want people to take your thread even partially serious? Do not brutalize the english language in the opening post.

Two: What are you angry about? Teenage angst? General rage at the way things are? Domestic Terrorists? People who protest?

Using the word "Rebellion" covers all of the above. Try and be a bit more specific.

Personally, I am obsessed with "Rebellion" or "Resistance" because I firmly believe that this current government is going to run this country, which I love in some strange way, into the ground. I firmly believe that we need more social freedoms, from the smoking of green to same sex marriage, I firmly believe that we should once more nationalise our rail services, prevent the privitization of the NHS, keep G4S from taking over our police force... The list goes on.

I don't rebel with guns or violence, bringing about social change through violence is almost impossible. Plus I do not think that the current system warrants wholesale slaughter and civil war, unlike many other socialists of my age. I rebel by pounding the pavements, talking to people, drumming up support, selling socialists papers. Recently I stopped my "Rebellion" to a degree to focus on my studies, through education I will be able to do far more, hopefully one day founding a true socialist coalition party.

So, although I went off on a tangent, I will answer you with this.

People are obsessed with rebellion because people are angry. When I graduate the chances of me having a job will be minimal. I watch my old friends join the army for want of work and get sent off to fight pointless wars, I watch 14 year olds drink themselves to death and the working class get driven down into the dirt. Watching our social systems get torn to pieces, without consultation, makes us angry.

We who watch the world burn because of greed get angry.

EDIT: Oh, and the whole I hate humanity thing? Two points on that.
One: Its a trend to say it and a common way of showing your general distaste towards how things are.
Two: Hundreds die in syria, nobody cares. 400 women and children get raped in the DRC everyday, nobody cares. Famine in the horn of africa, nobody cares. A child dies every 4 seconds due to diseases caught from unhealthy water sources, nobody cares. Its the fact that nobody cares, that there is so little you, personally, can do that causes people to "hate" humanity.

So much of the time humanity seems to be devoid of humanity.

 

[LetalisK]

We need to rebel more.

Make me.

This is probably the single funniest thing I've seen on here in quite some time. XD

 

[Vault101]

I assume you mean tribalism? In which case, yeah, kinda. Atleast it's a part of it. We aren't very good at living in gigantic groups like Cities, our brains can't really deal with such masses of people. We aren't made for our common diets. We aren't made for repetitive tasks commonly found in the work force. Those things lead to psychological and medical problems.

Just because you can do something does not mean that it is good for you. I can smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day, doesn't mean it's good for me.

I think Id rather have all my nice things and not get married off to pump out children

And who exactly told you that I disagree with that? I also like having nice things but I'm not a moron, so the less crap I have to tolerate for those nice things the better. I assume that you'd agree with that. Somehow you seem to have gotten it in your head that I want to return to living in fucking tribes just because I told you that it's accurate when people say that some things are inherently wrong in our society. Maybe, just maybe, you should have taken my post as simply what it was and not whatever the hell you would like to interpret into it.

more suited to living in small community then?

mabye I jumped the gun in talking about Tribalism

its just when people start talking about "alternative" ways of living I get suspicious...like all those possible implications

in tribalism/small comunities its not like I'd have a wide range of choice over a potential mate...or that "not having kids" would be accepted...not to mention career options or ownership of personal property

I cant help but think of how comunism turned out

 

[Vault101]

Basically, yes. I'll give you a example that I hope you can work with.

Imagine your Garbage Man. You don't really know him, he doesn't really know you. So, as far as you are concerned, he is little more then a thing that does a thing. You don't care about his emotions, his wishes or dreams, in short, you don't really acknowledge him as a human being on anything more then the most basic level. Ofcourse you aren't stupid, you KNOW that he is, but you won't acknowledge it the same way you would with for instance a actual friend.

For you the Garbage Man, while you know he is a human, is little more then a robot that is supposed to simply function.

soo........wheres the problem?

of coarse I'm not concerned with Gary the Garbage man...I don't know the guy and its not my obligation to know the guy, he (hopwfully) has freinds and a familiy...so why does he need to know me?

I mean if he wants to say high and make small talk I'd oblige because its polite and aside from what cynical twats might say its nice when we are polite to each other

also if he;s in some kind of trouble (like being harrased by thugs) then yeah Id try and help

unless mabye you built some familiary with the guy...like if I saw him every day, like the guy at the comicbook store or the even the guy I buy my soft drinks from we do actually have some familiarity even on a small level


[quote/]The question is, would you really need a wide range or is that just a result of the society we already live in? I honestly don't know what the answer to that would be, but I can tell you that in a small community you would also be inherently closer to the people around you, I guess that could account for alot.[/quote]

I grew up in a small cominty with a quite a close nit group of friends..I know what its like.....mabye I could imagine myself shacking up with one of those guys.....it wouldnt be awful but I don't see why being limited in that way is such a great thing, and to be honest there arent any "like minded" people in that group

not sure I can answer that one eather..to many "what ifs"


Assuming you would even want that option. The thing is that your fears are based on losing things that you know, you however can't know if you would miss such things if they weren't necessary to a life you have always known. Choice is only really important because we live in a society that allows for it. It would be reasonable to be pissed if having the choice would absolutely be a viable option and you aren't being given that choice for no reason. But that wouldn't be the case. I also don't believe that was ever the problem in what our current society once was, but thats a different story.

Like I said, you are assuming you would miss it. Let's be honest here, baring some huge catastrophe, you aren't going to find yourself going from urban to tribal unless it's of your own free will. We aren't just going to all say fuck it and start over in tribes.

Actually, going on the countless documentaries I've watched, I can't say I recall a single tribe that didn't have concepts of personal property.
[/quote]

for me it just seems going backwards for the sake of going backwards, because apparently you think people would be happier like that

like saying people would be happier if we hadn't discovered evoltuion/science and instead everyone belived they were going to go to heaven when they died

its just out modern society and structure is what gives us the things we like....I can't imagine them making computers out in small tribal communities

I dont know if its because I had the Ideas taught to me but I'm not sure Id fit in a society where "feminines traits and staying in the kitchen" is the way I''m expected to be

 

[Vault101]

Since Gary is only a example to illustrate the general way of thinking, he won't necessarily ever be a problem...you know, even if he were real. The problem in and of itself however is pretty simple. If you are incapable of seeing someone as human as you and friends and family are, it's going to be alot easier for you to treat them as less then human when you do have to have meaningful interaction. Basically, we only have a limited capactiy for empathy.

but he is human, I'm not a sociopath, I know I'd be causing suffering to him if I did something bad

its really not hard, I'm pleasant to to people when I need to interact with them, some people aren't....but generally that's what society requires of us

we have a limited capacity for empathy in that..if I see somonone die on the news I'll think "thats pretty bad" and then continue on with my life..thats not because Im a bad person or because of our modern society..thats because of the way our brians are wired...

I cant cry for the suffering of the millions in the world like I would for somone close to me

and those hundred or more peopel in my "circle" are the same regardless of if Im living with them directly or if they are part of the millions in my city (well kind of anyway)

and its the same in a tribal setting...."foregners" or unknowns from a rivial or unknown tribe I'm certainly not going to see as "human" like my own tribsmen..racism and distrust of others is a natural thing



[quote/]I'm not thinking along the lines of "that would be great", more along the lines of "it would be different if that's all you ever knew".[/quote]

yeah it would....but I dont think its a 100% garuntee that everyones happy


[quote/]I'm really not sure where you are getting the notion that I think that way. For the record, I'm an atheist and it wouldn't surprise me if I actually know more about evolution then you do, in my experience I tend to know more then average about that stuff.[/quate]

wha?...well gee...congrats that you know more than me...don;t see what that has to do with- oh wait

I dont think you think that way..I was using it as an example of "ignorance is bliss" which may not be the basic Idea you were getting at but it came across to me a little like that if youre saying "well you woouldnt know if you were born like that"



[quote/]
Like I already implied, I think differently about the whole feminism thing. Maybe we can talk about that per PM? I don't really want to derail your Thread anymore then it already has been.[/quote]

think differently

is that another way of saying...."women are natually inclined to be "in the kitchen?"" not saying you are thats just a guess

 

[AnarchistFish]

You're gonna hate my ideals then.

Don't believe the governments here are inherently evil, but the system they've been built around, politically and economically, is extremely flawed. Which has led onto a shitload of the problems we now have. Rebellion is really just change outside of the accepted (but not necessarily right) way of doing things.

Unsure if the world is ready for it yet though. Especially with so many parts of the world at completely different stages of development. I think it suffers from apathy too. People accept there are issues, but they're too scared to accept that it means a complete overhaul in how we do things. Maybe people are scared of change, or maybe they refuse to see it.

Oh and don't even get me started on the media. And that's not just newspapers, Rupert Murdoch blah blah. But you say "Communism" to someone and immediately they think Stalin, control, poverty, genocide. And whose fault is that? All throughout their lives people are influenced by these beliefs, and because they've been told them from the beginning they don't question them. And because they don't question them they carry them on.

 

[RedLister]

The government simply do not care for anyone that it's not "profitable" to care about. That's how to run a business, when you're talking about goods and services.

But we are not talking about goods and services. We are talking about people. Human lives.

I'll accept they make tough decisions, but after a while, you see the pattern emerging that they always screw over the little guys. That's how it is in britain, these days.

Besides that, I feel personally wronged by every one of the leaders in my memory. Tony blair was the first prime minister I remember. He opened the scheme of schools that led to me suffering for the majority of my childhood. He even came to our one in particular, one of the first and biggest, saying right there and then that it was a safe place to learn. He's a fucking liar, and a fucking murderer. It'll catch up to him eventually. I've no doubt of that.

Gordon Brown was next. He sold our futures to the banks. Simple as. Never mind the fact that we never voted for him, that he simply came in when blair went out. He showed particular disrespect for young people's needs. He ignored the youth unemployment problem for ages before the recession, ages before older people were added to the dole queues.

Then there's nick clegg and David Cameron. Clegg sold us out. He betrayed us all. He promised a lot, and ended up letting in the complete opposite, just for a bit of power. He's not got any real power, though, so he isn't a threat. Cameron however...Cameron's an eton brat. He's for the rich, by the rich. Worst still, he's completely prepared to sacrifice the future of britain's youth rather than pursue stricter banking laws and actions against tax dodgers.

All of them are morally bankrupt, none of them listened to the public. I've got every right to be angry.

Beat me too it! I am one of the betrayed British youth. The forgotten Generation. Pretty much i just want an actual future without being trampled on by the greed and corruption of the rich and being forced to work for just over £1 on there so called work experience for big fat cat corperations which can easily afford to pay me a living wage but are too tight fisted and greedy to do so. Big corperations are the true "something for nothing" culture. They arn't paying for these work experience people. The taxpayer is and when that individuals placement is over. Just replace him/her with another one instead of giving the person on the work placement a paid job at the end (which i stress again they can easily afford if you go by yearly profit gains from such exploiters like Tesco)

Our government even endorces this taxpayer funded slave labour instead of giving the people real jobs with a real proper wage. Government and the DWP on a regular basis massage the figures to keep the public in the dark about this exploitation Success rate of the work program is like 3.5% at the momment or at least roughly around that. Thats alot of wasted taxpayer money and alot of jobs being filled by workfare placements.

 

[Meatspinner]

I just want to put this here since these kind of threads always end up debating some narrow view of what anarchism is

Anarchism: A political theory holding all forms of governmental authority to be unnecessary and undesirable and advocating a society based on voluntary cooperation and free association of individuals and groups

OTid this train of thought start after you saw The Dark Knight Rises?

 

[Twilight_guy]

Teenagers have a rebellious streak because they have grown up with parents defining them for a long time and wish to become independent and free since they will have to leave the house soon. I think a large amount of the stupid talk with regards to 'the man' comes from them. There are also people who never outgrown this line of thinking and come to hate every form of largish organization on principle since any large group must inherently be evil. I don't like these kinds of people since there prejudice (yes that word is valid here) can blind them to the truth. I have a brother that thinks all cops, every single one of them, is corrupt and dirty. No exceptions. I hate that. I hope one day he sees what a stupid thing that is to say. The way I deal with it is by ignoring it though since trying to argue would inevitably not get me or him anywhere. I think sometimes, when people make snap arguments, you just have to let them sit and cool because often times they are mad and arguing just makes them madder.

 

[Shadeovblack]

The government tells people what to do. + People do not like being told what to do. = Rebellion.

 

[Moth_Monk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactance_(psychology)

Reactance is a motivational reaction to offers, persons, rules, or regulations that threaten or eliminate specific behavioral freedoms. Reactance occurs when a person feels that someone or something is taking away his or her choices or limiting the range of alternatives.
Reactance can occur when someone is heavily pressured to accept a certain view or attitude. Reactance can cause the person to adopt or strengthen a view or attitude that is contrary to what was intended, and also increases resistance to persuasion. People using reverse psychology are playing on at least an informal awareness of reactance, attempting to influence someone to choose the opposite of what they request.

 

[Chased]

Not everyone who wishes for the apocalypse expects to be a survivor. Just saying.

This quote is packed with win.

I have nothing to contribute that hasn't already been said, just wanted to give an interwebz cookie to Aris.