People's distaste for Science/Maths

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zelda2fanboy

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Oct 6, 2009
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Crap education and crummy teachers. I sucked hard at math almost every single year I was in school up until my second semester of high school when I got the greatest math teacher on the planet. From that point on, everything else was a variation on what the guy had laid out and I made sure to take as many classes with him as possible. Without him, I never would have gotten through college because I never would have gotten basic shit down.

Science and math teachers really don't know what they're doing most of the time and try to get by on their enthusiasm for the subject. I had math and science teachers in 6th and 7th grade who had the attitude that homework should dominate a kid's life, so they'd load us down with packet after packet after packet of the most random pointless bullshit they could think of, not even considering that we had six other classes in a day.

I think math and science teachers come from a place of intellectual superiority a lot of the time and sadistically put down their students as much as possible. My algebra teacher (before the godlike one of second semester) gleefully made it impossible for the average person to keep up, cursed at us regularly, and put kids on the spot to try and belittle them. All to get a small elite of students who knew what they were doing, so he could go home and feel like he was "making a difference" for the four or five kids he favored.
 

Sinclair Solutions

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I'm more of an English and History guy myself. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing how the world works and the explanations for it in mathematical terms, but I just enjoy reading and writing much more. Just personally preference really.
 

artanis_neravar

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creationis apostate said:
artanis_neravar said:
Engineers are badass. What subjects looked down on you? Was it those snobby english lit. majors or the hippy actors? Also I can't understand why anyone in maths would look down on engineering, I could have done engineering and DAMN that maths is hard...
EDIT: OT: I find it so hilarious how many people find work doing something menial and stupid instead of moving our society forward, and badmouth scince because they are too stupid to understand that how they live their life is governed by it.
Usually it's the "Sport Management" majors. In my freshman English class (it was mandatory) we had to say what our major was. When I said engineering a sports management major asked "Why would you want to be an engineer? what have they ever done to improve my life." I was at a lose for words when I realized he actually meant it, no correction I was at a lose for polite words. Until, that is, my teacher told me to "go ahead" I said something along the lines of "What are you? Retarded? Engineers are behind cars, roads, the building you live in, air conditioners, the chair you're sitting in, the desk you're sitting at, your phone, your computer and the McDonald's cash-register you're going to spend the rest of your life working with."
 

Klarinette

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May 21, 2009
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I love science, and the only reason I lost interest in and stopped taking math is because the grade 11 math class was all about finances and super fucking boring. THANKS, HIGH SCHOOL.
 

derob

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Feb 17, 2011
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Applied sciences (this includes math) are generally seen as some sort of mode of language only attainable to those who willingly dedicate their lives to it. That some may show disdain towards the field of applied sciences in general is not necessarily because of this perceived difficulty in attaining any sort of immediate "meaning", but rather the dynamics between language and the sciences itself. The capacity for just about any professional in the field of applied sciences requires an expansive experience with mathematics and other branches of abstract practice which require a vast amount of rigor.

This split between the "mundane" language used by those outside of the field of the sciences and the "specialized" or "abstract" language of those in the field of sciences is what is ultimately (a few modern thinkers, most notably Slavoj Zizek here agree) impeding a more immediate cultural impact amongst those outside of the scientific forum.
 

Atmos Duality

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I'm sorry to say that I cannot relate. My department at college is quite thoroughly scientific; grads and undergrads can be found as casually discussing their topics as many discuss sports or TV.
 

BoredDragon

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Feb 9, 2011
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The only disdain I hear for at least math is when a new confusing lesson is introduced and, since I'm a computer science major and have to take advanced calculus classes, is all the time.
 

remnant_phoenix

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Apr 4, 2011
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College not for love of nerdy stuffs, college for parties and to gets a good job!!

Seriously though, most people just don't find academic discussion, of any kind, fun or entertaining, which is sad.

I'm a teacher, so I feel your frustration. I believe that the biggest problem with education in the world is parents who don't nurture a love of learning in their children. Though some people may have "nerd" genes and may be inherently predisposed to like academics, appreciation for learning and respecting the power of education are things that have to be taught.
 

Shadowkire

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I have never, ever heard anyone despising or ridiculing someone because that someone was into science/math. At least not since the last time I saw a movie involving kids in school/college from the 80s.
 

mega48man

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college students are usually quite proactive about their studies (when they're not partying partying partying yeah!) because 1; it's costing them MONEY and 2; it's to get a degree. but when anyone tries to stick out by sounding like a know-it-all at something they know little about, they just look like a fucking dumbass and earn a LOT of disrespect.

now there is a line, and we've all seen it: popular kids and nerds. nerds stand out with the glasses, scrony arms, dorky clothes, etc. you get the deal. popular kids, you get the deal. all you gotta do is be like them, become them, and from within let your love for math and science subtly spread to all the other popular kids. soon, america will not be dumb.

the only thing keeping popular kids from embracing math/science in the first place is that social barrier of not wanting to be associated with nerds, who will laugh at you for not knowing some insane equation formula to make themselves feel better than you. it's a lot like my anti-otaku theroy; normal kids don't like anime because of the social barrier created by otaku's obsessive fandom.

social barriers can only be taken down through assimilation. after that, anything is possible. but until then, the cliques will remain strong rooted.
 

lumenadducere

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May 19, 2008
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You're in what amounts to high school? Then it's a very simple thing - you're all young. They'll grow. And trust me, if university over there is anything like it is over here in the US, it's almost completely reversed. The science/math students get mad props, while everyone else desperately jokes about how they won't have jobs when they graduate...because it's true.

So just wait it out. Like many other things that likely bother you, it's a matter of youth and time.
 

JET1971

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Apr 7, 2011
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SilentJay22 said:
TestECull said:
I like science, but I find math to be one of the dullest things I've ever tried to learn. I rank it there with watching paint dry on the dullness scale.
That's generous of you giving math that high of a rating.
OT: I feel the same as the guy I quoted.
And Me too! calculus never helped me balance my checkbook... and PI never helped me balance my budget. All those are very important but I just have no interest in them. and when I went to school math was about numbers not letters, calculus and triginometry was optional.

OT:

Science? Love it! My best grades were in science classes and If I watched TV it was not a sitcom but a documentary or sci-fi.

One of the issues thats being overlooked is Science and math majors were always considered the nerds classes, and nobody wants to be a nerd.
 

God's Clown

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Aug 8, 2008
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Science and Math are complex and hard. You have to want to understand them to be good at them. Most people can't be bothered with learning the equations and formula's, so they find it boring. It has nothing to do with that they hate it or whatever and more so has to do with it just not being interesting to them.

That is my belief anyways. I for one hate math completely and utterly, and suck at science, but I find science interesting at the least. I am fundamentally unable to do science at any skill level, but enjoy reading about it and watching people show such passion for their work.
 

commodore96

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Aug 31, 2010
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Science is great but what really grinds my gears about science are the science majors and professors.

I hate most science majors at my college for a couple reason

1: You have a 2 hour lab you have to go to on top of classes!!!!!!!! OMG how will you ever survive doing your homework with your professor right there giving you directions??

2: If I run into another science major who explains to me how hard they have it because they have to memorize terms I will punch them in the face regardless of gender.

3: Really you have trouble writing a lab report? It is pretty much telling the teacher what you did that day, and they always copy one another. It is depressing.

4: It is the only major I know that 80% of the class fails the tests and the teachers curve it up so they pass. Seriously it is pathetic. I can see a 5 point curve that some teachers give if everyone was screwed but some of these curves science kids get are ridiculous.

5: Most science professors suck. Most of them are boring dull assholes who start spewing out stupid information when they get defensive about something so you can see how much smarter they are than you.
 

Korolev

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Jul 4, 2008
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Indeed - and that's why US universities are having to rely more and more on overseas students. America used to respect scientists - until the scientists started telling them things they didn't want to hear. Now scientists are branded as elitist and arrogant. Many domestic students in the US and Australia are raised to believe that academics are stuffy and boring and useless and sexual unattractive. They are taught to admire rap stars and sports stars and movie celebrities. They are taught to value money over knowledge. In places like China and India, however, their culture tells them that being a scholar is respectable, that there's more to respect than money and that knowledge for the sake of knowledge is a worthwhile pursuit. Is it really so strange that nearly half the staff/students in all the biology labs that I've worked in are now Chinese or Japanese or Indian? Is it any surprise that nearly half the names attached to half the papers in journals like Nature or JBC are of asian origin? No. America USED to value science and learning. Being smart was valued. Now, in the US, and indeed, Australia, it no longer is, despite the fact that science and mathematics are what BUILT those nations to their current state. I find it strange that in a nation so absolutely dependent on technology for waging warfare, science and mathematics are derided so thoroughly.

And to be honest, the problem is partially caused by scientists themselves. We don't do a good enough job communicating to the public the importance of our research. Modern science is baffling, jargon filled and takes years and years of studying to gain even a basic grasp of fundamental concepts. A lot of people don't have the time to learn science, because they have jobs and families and hobbies and all that stuff.

So it is very difficult to communicate to the general public. It's not their fault - they don't have the time or the inclination to master a subject. Scientists just have to do a better job at communicating our worth to the public.

There's also a strong strain of anti-intellectualism that has developed in the US. In Australia, it's commonly referred to as "tall poppy syndrome". Simply put, a lot of students resent academics for doing well. They view the scientists and the academics with mistrust and suspicion, because they can seemingly do things others can't (this isn't true, by the way - being a scientist requires a mindset and determination. You don't have to be a super genius to be a scientist. With enough effort, most people could learn science).

Throughout the US, there is a recurring theme running through a lot of heads: "What, you think you know better than me!?" In the US, people are taught that "everyone's opinions are equal". That's nonsense - the more informed opinion is usually better, but people don't want to be told that. People feel resentment when they are told that they are ignorant on certain matters. When a scientist explains why their mythology or folk beliefs are incorrect, they feel (often correctly) that they are being "talked down to" by the "eggheads".

So, how to fix the negative image that scientists have created for themselves?:

Scientists need to explain their position more clearly - they need to make it clear that being ignorant is not the same thing as being stupid, but that being ignorant means that the populace doesn't have the knowledge to address complex issues. Everyone is ignorant of something, and we need to make it clear to the general public that we don't think they are stupid just because they haven't invested 4 or more years of their life in a science degree. We need to be honest and tell them when they are wrong, but we also need to adopt a more friendly approach when telling them that they are wrong. As tempting as it might be, we shouldn't assume that they are idiots for "not getting us", rather, we should examine how we could explain our positions and ideas in such a way as to enable them to understand us. Scientists have a habit of forgetting how hard it was to learn the stuff they know and how hard it is for the general public, most of whom haven't been to university, to understand the jargon.

We also need to stop treating the general public like children. Often, scientists won't even bother speaking to the public on the assumption that "they just wouldn't understand". In my experience, however, people generally will if you find a clever way of explaining it. Sure, you might not be able to easily explain very complex scientific theories to a person, but you can general get the gist of a lot of it across. We need to make it clear to the public that we don't think they are stupid just because they might not know what dsRNA is or what how a DNA retrovirus functions. Ignorance is NOT stupidity, and ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of. We're all ignorant of something. I don't know how to fire a gun or how to drive a tank. Am I stupid? I can't cook well or grow my own crops. I'm totally ignorant about many things, like farming, sowing or engineering. But that doesn't mean I'm stupid.

But it's not entirely our fault either. The public have caused a lot of problems too. In return for scientists being more humble, here's what I want the public to realize (and maybe we need to do a better job of explaining it):

1) The world is complex. It's INCREDIBLY complex. I know only a little physics, but know quite a bit of chemistry and biology - and the sheer complexity of biological systems is enough to blow your mind. The way DNA unravels in order to transcription to occur, the way cellular receptors phosphorylate proteins in signalling chains, the way cytokines and other molecules interact with the nucleus to suppress or upregulate gene expression - you're talking about hundreds of thousands, it not millions of specialize proteins working in an unbelievably small space amongst a cytoskeleton structure of amazing complexity. There is SO MUCH about the cell that the average person has no idea about. Scientists spend years and years and years and years learning about these systems. It's a never ending process - you NEVER stop learning new things in science, EVER. No one knows everything - that's how complex the fields are. You can spend your entire life just trying to learn one more function of one more gene - and there are tens of thousands of genes, which can produce, with alternative splicing, a huge array of RNA transcripts, creating a huge amount of different proteins. There's a lot of information out there. I know scientists shouldn't pretend to be know-it-alls, but it galls me when you have members of the public assume that they know it all themselves.

2) Please learn about the subject before criticizing it. You won't believe the amount of fundamentalist christians/muslims/jews/hindus I've run into who say "evolution is impossible", who haven't even READ ONE TEXTBOOK on evolution! They criticize it, without understanding a single thing about it. Please don't do this. If you don't know what you are talking about, don't criticize it. Read a proper book on evolutionary theory BEFORE clearing "it's impossible", just because a website told you it was.

3) Please understand that science is a WORK IN PROGRESS. As a famous comedian once said: "scientists know they don't know everything! If they thought they knew everything, they'd stop!". Science can't explain everything, but that is not a reason to think that "Science will never explain X or Y or Z". A long time ago scientists (who were called natural philosophers) couldn't explain what lightning was. Religious people said "Aha! You can't say what lightning is! It's obviously a divine manifestation of the powers of God!". But with a bit of cleverness and hardwork and time, we now CAN explain what lightning is (it's an atmospheric electrical discharge). A long time ago people said "aha! you'll NEVER be able to explain how a baby forms in the womb! It's a divine miracle!" but now, with modern molecular biology, we CAN explain how a baby forms in the womb.

So that's the deal:

1) Scientists should be less arrogant, but the public needs to realize that we do know what we're talking about. The wealth of technology surrounding you proves this
2) Ignorance is NOT stupidity. Everyone is ignorant about something and it's not shameful to admit you don't know much about a subject.
3) If the US wants to retain it's technological edge, it must learn to respect academics more. The US military is powerful because of it's Tomahawk Missiles, Stealth Bombers, Daisy Cutter bombs, M1A2 chobham armour and nuclear bombs. Guess who built those things? Scientists. If you want your army to remain powerful, you need to cultivate the best scientific minds, otherwise other countries will start inventing better weapons than you.
 

Bobbity

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I get incredibly pissed off, actually. My christian ed teacher last year saw scientific research as wonderful, except when it got in his way, at which point it was to be ignored utterly.

Somewhat off topic: When I tell people in my year that I'm an atheist, it always really bugs me if they ask whether or not I believe in science. I mean, that's incredibly awkwardly phrased, has implications that I don't intend and is just all-round annoying. Does anyone else ever encounter this?
 

The Apothecarry

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Mar 6, 2011
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Simple: 60% of the people you talk to look down on science/math (or school in general) because it's not "cool" (that's how things were at my high school). I'm in a college surrounded by programmers and artists who love science, math, and games.

I personally dislike math (especially) and science because it's not my academic specialty. That is reserved for English. I can respect anyone who loves and is passionate about science or math.

To all you Grammar Nazis: I'm getting sleepy so don't jump on my calling myself an English specialist if I made a mistake or two.
 

ultimateownage

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Feb 11, 2009
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cookyy2k said:
I try my best to get others interested but with very little success.
Well that's your problem right there. You can't make people interested, you just make yourself look arrogant.
 

StellarViking

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Apr 10, 2011
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I am a former art school student getting ready to begin my studies on astrophysics and cosmology.

Many of my friends see this as a bad move because "science is lame and represses your creativity". I don't understand the hate towards math and science, the stuff is awesome and some of it takes some serious chops, especially higher level math (I still hate calculus).