Perma-kill a superhero.

[Souplex]

Spoiler: Big snip!

Batman has the weaknesses of every Justice League character loaded onto his freakin' PC. He's already figured out 9 ways to kill/defeat Aquaman if needed. Hell, Batman has defeated Superman in combat using just his intellect multiple times over the years. Aquaman isn't even the master of his own domain as long as Batman has his head attached to his shoulders.

Kinda made this point in my original post, Batman has the thickest plot armour in the universe. Sure he may have a plan to defeat Aquaman, but in a straight up brawl there is no way he would win. Batman only really ever fights if he has an advantage over his opponent, case in point Batman: Hush. Batman is "fighting" a brain washed Superman, he runs like a ***** until he gets a Kryptonite ring and even then he hides, punches him once or twice, hides some more and waits for Catwoman to stop Ivy.

Here's the thing, no one specified straight up brawl. If your going to have a comparison of who would win in battle between two superheroes, you kind of HAVE to take their special abilities. Otherwise Superman wins by default. No allowing Batman's natural "having a plan" in any conflict is unrealistic to Batman's entire character. It's the same way that Supeman being a boy scout keeps him from just setting up a base on the moon and using his laser beams to fry human civilization into being better people, knowing full well he could.

Batman is Tony Stark without the alcoholism. Aquaman may be impervious to bullets and such, but we both know who would be the smarter combatant. Aquaman is also very water dependent with most of his abilities. Hr may not be useless, but he is a very situational character.

Again... just going to keep posting this until the point sinks in. If Batman can have a plan, so can Aquaman and HIS plan will probably involve throwing large land based predators.

3) Physically batman is easily on Aquamans level in the strength department. Despite not being a meta, batman is incredibly strong and agile, which is something he has up on aquaman.

I'm gonna just call shenanigans on the 'Batman is as strong as him' argument.

Seriously, ignoring Batman's plot armour, it's pretty unreasonable to assume he'd just beat Aquaman. For that matter, as much as I enjoy Batman comics, he is unreasonably well respected for what is basically a crazy dude in a suit. Batman would win the fight because the fans demanded it, not because intrinsically he's a better character or he's functionally superior. Because if he's allowed to go and fetch his anti-Aquaman gadgets, I don't see why Aquaman wouldn't be allowed to flood the bat-cave and make them fight underwater.

Fool!
Batman already has anti-shark spray, I'm sure he has sprays dedicated to anything else aquatic.
Aquaman is no match!

 

[Eddy-16]

Seriously, ignoring Batman's plot armour, it's pretty unreasonable to assume he'd just beat Aquaman. For that matter, as much as I enjoy Batman comics, he is unreasonably well respected for what is basically a crazy dude in a suit. Batman would win the fight because the fans demanded it, not because intrinsically he's a better character or he's functionally superior. Because if he's allowed to go and fetch his anti-Aquaman gadgets, I don't see why Aquaman wouldn't be allowed to flood the bat-cave and make them fight underwater.

I love you long time for this post

As I read this thread I'm aware that I would love to see No Right Answer: Best Superhero Ever Aquaman Vs Batman.

I would also love this very much.
Now onto business (cracks fingers)

SNIP

1)Aquaman doesn't lose all stamina as soon as he leaves water you know? He still has greater stamina out of water than humans. Also Aquamans pretty awesome at fighting, granted not Batman level but easily better than most villains Bats goes against on a regular basis who can land a couple of hits on him and as I said earlier it would only take one to take out Bats.
2)Supes never actually hits him he nearly gets him with his lasers once or twice but thats about it, mostly Bats just hides and runs.
3)Captain Marvelous already did this one.
4)Ice pellets may slow him down a little, but he can tear through steel pretty easy so and to be honest I'm not sure how much a taser would affect him, he has pretty thick skin (a good insulator for electricity) but it make work wonders on his Altantean(SP?) half, then again actually getting him with a taser would be hard (Bulletproof scale armour, faster than Bats yadda yadda)
5)I'll give you the Bane thing, Bats was really tired but The Outrageous Aquaman would still win. Also condensing your last point into this, Aquaman would lose against Supes and MM, easily win againt Red Robin(He's<Bats). Plus Aquaman isn't just some big brainless hulk He can form pretty decent plans as well, granted not Bats level but not bad.

Sorry for the wall of text people.

 

[Treblaine]

Batman sacrifices himself to save the people of Gotham though the city itself is destroyed.

It's the only way Batman would allow it to go, and without Gotham... then what need will there need be for batman? Oh yeah, all the villains of Gotham die in whatever cataclysm totally destroys the city, with all the evacuees going to other cities.

This destroys his character armour, his reason for fighting. The only way to write out of this is a TOTAL reboot.

 

[Manji187]

Start fresh, and nationalism should be kept out of it this time around.

Also, cut down on the convoluted multi-dimensional shit.

Finally, "He died.....NOT!" is the worst plot twist ever and everyone with half a brain can see it coming from a mile away.

 

[SpectacularWebHead]

Seriously, ignoring Batman's plot armour, it's pretty unreasonable to assume he'd just beat Aquaman. For that matter, as much as I enjoy Batman comics, he is unreasonably well respected for what is basically a crazy dude in a suit. Batman would win the fight because the fans demanded it, not because intrinsically he's a better character or he's functionally superior. Because if he's allowed to go and fetch his anti-Aquaman gadgets, I don't see why Aquaman wouldn't be allowed to flood the bat-cave and make them fight underwater.

I love you long time for this post

As I read this thread I'm aware that I would love to see No Right Answer: Best Superhero Ever Aquaman Vs Batman.

I would also love this very much.
Now onto business (cracks fingers)

SNIP

1)Aquaman doesn't lose all stamina as soon as he leaves water you know? He still has greater stamina out of water than humans. Also Aquamans pretty awesome at fighting, granted not Batman level but easily better than most villains Bats goes against on a regular basis who can land a couple of hits on him and as I said earlier it would only take one to take out Bats.
2)Supes never actually hits him he nearly gets him with his lasers once or twice but thats about it, mostly Bats just hides and runs.
3)Captain Marvelous already did this one.
4)Ice pellets may slow him down a little, but he can tear through steel pretty easy so and to be honest I'm not sure how much a taser would affect him, he has pretty thick skin (a good insulator for electricity) but it make work wonders on his Altantean(SP?) half, then again actually getting him with a taser would be hard (Bulletproof scale armour, faster than Bats yadda yadda)
5)I'll give you the Bane thing, Bats was really tired but The Outrageous Aquaman would still win. Also condensing your last point into this, Aquaman would lose against Supes and MM, easily win againt Red Robin(He's<Bats). Plus Aquaman isn't just some big brainless hulk He can form pretty decent plans as well, granted not Bats level but not bad.

Sorry for the wall of text people.

1) I'm sure they said something about atlanteans as a race have to work a lot harder when out of water...Did they change that in the new 52? If so I take it back.
2) Fair enough
3) Okay, didn't know about that, but I still stand by the fact that batman is incredibly stron for a non-meta, an a lot more focused in his power than aquaman.
4) Ice pellets as a conductor for the taser. If It didn't knock him out, it'd slow him down long enough for bats to figure out something above my feeble intellect.
5)Thank you

As for the last post, Well, strictly speaking, batman has at one (Or more, I don't know) Said that Tim Drake will eventually be running the bat family (Robin issue 136, I'm such a dweeb) Now I don't know if he's at that stage yet, but Red has taken down superboy all by his lonesome, hence me using the example of RR. And okay, maybe aquaman would get beat by supes, but Martian Manhunter? I don't know. He kind of sucks. As for the last bit, that's the point, No one can form a plan like batman. His brain is his most powerful weapon. As for the flooding the batcave thing, Eeeeeh.....I don't want to come of as a fanboy, but this statement is gonna make that really hard, so for the record, I'm a Tim Drake fanboy if anything, buut, I think bat's would either have a contingency for the batcave to not be flooded, or he'd be able to beat aquaman underwater. Seeing as how aquaman operates best underwater, I'd be more inclined to think batman would have a million counter-measures tailored for atlanteans specifically when they're underwater. I mean all of his plans for the other members of the JLA are designed to take them down on their home turf, why wouldn't he have a plan for aquaman.

Haha, bigger wall of text, with more nerdiness!
And also typos that I can't be bothered to correct, because it's still vaguley legible.

 

[sammysoso]

Not really a comics person, they're a passing interest.

But I would get rid of Spiderman, I'm tired of his "wit." He's not funny, just obnoxious.

 

[Gizmo1990]

His powers only work in the water.

Batman is even better than him.

WRONG! His powers get weaker the longer he is out of water but he survived in a desert for at least a day so its not that bad, plus he's faster, stronger and more immune to damage than Batman. Aquaman would fuck up Batman in a straight up fight any time, if Bats didn't wear the thickest plot armour in the universe. Sorry it pisses me off when people are like "herp derp aquaman can only talk to fish he's crap, herp de derp derp" while never having read a aquaman comic ever. Also he can give people seizures: http://i514.photobucket.com/albums/t349/IMDBsuperman/jla00410.jpg
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/5/53838/1210972-jla_004_11_super.jpg
/Fan rant
OT: Probably Superman I find his character really boring.

I don't get it either. I don't like Aquaman but I don't seem to hate him as much as most people. Hell the only reason I don't like him very much is because he has to compete with The Flash, Hal Jordan/Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter. And as much as I like Batman the plot armor is getting inoying at this point.

OT: Warmachine. We already have Iron Man what do we need you for. Hell he may not have powers but at least Tony Stark built the Iron Man technology. Whats Warmachines power/skill? Having a genius billionair inventor for a friend?

And while I like some parts of Superman its time we got rid of him or updated him. I am tired of him being a gient boy scout.

 

[TheScientificIssole]

Hulk, with Superman as a close second

I'm not a big fan of invincible idiots.

But Hulk's issue isn't mortality, its the fact he's a giant, green atomic monster with no respect for human life. And he's Rufflo, so don't disrespect.

 

[Eddy-16]

SNIP

I'm getting the feeling we could go on like this forever, so agree to disagree?
Well argued fellow nerd. Oh, and for the record Atlanteans can survive out water but not for long, but Aquaman as half-human half-royal atlantean can survive on land for much, much longer, hydration in the air also helps (Though he did survive in a desert for a day with no water) but he has to go into water every now and then. Also he weakens the more dehydrated he is.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

None of these guys will ever be killed off, because money. Also because Sony, Marvel Studios and Warner Brothers and New Line - among others - have too much riding on the superhero or supernatural genres for it to stop any time soon.

If I had to dream, though, I'd say Larfleeze. He's no hero, I know, but he's starting to sound more and more like the Lantern-verse's Butt Monkey, when he used to be conceptualized as this all-consuming and fairly freaky representation of Greed on the worst possible level. Like, the dude is supposed to make Scrooge McDuck look like Mother Theresa and Shylock passes for a mendicant monk in comparison.

Yet, what does DC do with him? Silly one-note stories while the big boys are off having big-boy stuff about saving the universe for the upteenth time. Cut to Hal Jordan or Saint Walker occasionally going "Oh, Larfleeze..." like he's Shaggy from Scooby-Doo.

He was supposed to be badass and genuinely threatening, now he's mostly used as comic relief or as some sort of awkward device to insert really off-kilter jokes in the middle of fairly serious situations.

Dude even got his sappy, highly PG-rated feel-good Christmas issue, too! He really misses his family, aww...

Cool story, bro. Assimilate more Lanterns from the other Corps, instead of moping in your junkyard.

 

[RubyT]

Superman ... according to Grant Morrison ... Action Comics ... Hulk's most recent comic series... the quality varies ... Any comic by Alan Moore

THIS is the problem with comics. NO continuity, no standards. One guy takes them into this direction, the next guy in another. I mean - Superman can be hurt by a speeding train? When did that happen? That is not in line with the majority of the comics I know. Magic? Seriously? Magic was introduced into the DC universe?

I remember an old comic (when my brother made me read comics, most of them were '70s editions) where Superman and Batman fought - because of red kryptonite, of course. Now there is no way Batman could survive this, but he did. He even survived punches to the (bare) chin. How is that possible following the internal "logic" of the DC universe?

Recently I watched The Avengers. Horrible movie. My dear bro was visiting and this is what he brought. Now in that flick, there are giant alien spaceships, the size of battleship cruisers and they get brought down by Hulk just pounding on them. What kind of drama is that supposed to be?

And this is probably the quintessential problem of this type of superhero: you give them a certain mix of outrageous powers and suddenly everything seems grossly outmatched. So you have to come up with ever more outrageous enemies to threaten them. But since the superheroes have to prevail, the next enemy has to be even larger than the previous one. And after a couple of issues you're in bonkers-land.

 

[WolfThomas]

Superman ... according to Grant Morrison ... Action Comics ... Hulk's most recent comic series... the quality varies ... Any comic by Alan Moore

THIS is the problem with comics. NO continuity, no standards. One guy takes them into this direction, the next guy in another. I mean - Superman can be hurt by a speeding train? When did that happen? That is not in line with the majority of the comics I know. Magic? Seriously? Magic was introduced into the DC universe?

The train thing is out of context. Grant Morrison wrote a run of Action Comics about early Superman, where his powers hadn't fully been developed, so he can't fly only jump and trying to stop a train wrecks him badly. But current Superman is the normal really strong.

Magic is around in the DC universe but more the fringes, people like Constantine, Zatanna and well most of the new Justice League Dark deal with magic. Superman's weakness to magic is often misunderstood. It's a weakness to the chaotic irrational parts of it. If some magics up a lightening bolt it will have the same effects as normal electricity to Superman (nothing), but if they cast an illusion, banish him to a spectral plan, turn him into a frog, etc he will be affected like most people would.

Superman's has a few weaknesses compared to other DC characters (the Flash is outright OP). Kryptonite, Red Sunlight makes him normal, as mentioned magic and generally being hit by someone stronger. When he died it was basically from physical damage from Doomsday.

And this is probably the quintessential problem of this type of superhero: you give them a certain mix of outrageous powers and suddenly everything seems grossly outmatched. So you have to come up with ever more outrageous enemies to threaten them. But since the superheroes have to prevail, the next enemy has to be even larger than the previous one. And after a couple of issues you're in bonkers-land.

But isn't this inherently there in their name "Super-heroes". If I want grit and realism I watch the Wire. If I want to see an outgunned cop fight off baddies I watch diehard. But if I want to see a literal Asgardian God channel lighting to explode an alien fleet. I watch a super hero movie.

Superheroes are about the insane stakes. The best ever run of the Justice League (Grant Morrison's JLA) had the team deal with armies of hundreds of White Martian (as powerful as Martian Manhunter a superman level hero), invasions by rogue angels, alliances of supervillains, the Joker and Darkseid across two simultaneous timelines and a god-killing sentient computer from beyond time named Mageddon the Anti-Sun.

It was about what odds would actually require the most powerful heroes on earth to team up.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Daystar so I could rebuild him evilly!

 

[Bucht]

Judging by the posts I've read here I think it's safe to say that most Escapists don't read comics.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

Superman ... according to Grant Morrison ... Action Comics ... Hulk's most recent comic series... the quality varies ... Any comic by Alan Moore

THIS is the problem with comics. NO continuity, no standards. One guy takes them into this direction, the next guy in another. I mean - Superman can be hurt by a speeding train? When did that happen? That is not in line with the majority of the comics I know. Magic? Seriously? Magic was introduced into the DC universe?

Introduced ? It's been there since ever. Wonder Woman's *BLANK* Lassoo of truth? Comicbooks have continuity, that's also one of the big issues nigh on everyone HAS with them (via-a-vis that it can get confusing over decade long time-spans). The speeding train thing was slightly out of context and a little hyperbolic but the point is Superman isn't completely invincible, he can be stomped on without any kryptonite and Hulk can be taken down by tranquilizers. Granted it takes an assload of tranquilizers but still.

Different writers tend to take the characters in different directions, it's one of the things that makes comics more interesting than some other forms of media. There's a whole plethora of archetypes and characters that everyone's familiar with so you can use that to inform what happens next. Every James Bond movie will feature James Bond doing the exact same James Bond things every time, Batman movies can go from outrageously camp to Tim Burton to its-the-dark-knight-suddenly-everyone-loves-Batman-die-in-a-fire, even though it's the same exact character the things they do and the character itself is different. If you can name another fictional character (aside from Sherlock Holmes) who can have stories told about them in such a way then I'd be interested to hear it.

I remember an old comic (when my brother made me read comics, most of them were '70s editions) where Superman and Batman fought - because of red kryptonite, of course. Now there is no way Batman could survive this, but he did. He even survived punches to the (bare) chin. How is that possible following the internal "logic" of the DC universe?

Because Batman has plot armour and is exactly the kinda crap we tend to argue against and I was even doing a few posts up (and they stopped doing around maybe the mid 8o's when Bane broke his back, but he's still ridiculously well respected for what he is >_>)

Recently I watched The Avengers. Horrible movie. My dear bro was visiting and this is what he brought. Now in that flick, there are giant alien spaceships, the size of battleship cruisers and they get brought down by Hulk just pounding on them. What kind of drama is that supposed to be?

Interestingly enough, the drama was intended to be the other 2 hours in that 2 hour 30 film. Or alternatively when they believe Iron Man's dead because of his effort to pilot a nuke through a portal or... seriously, it's a movie. The entire point of the Hulk (heck, even how they built him up) is he's an analogue to the same nuclear bomb that created him. He's a man-made weapon who causes huge amounts of damage when unleaashed while crossed with the Jekyll and Hyde thing. They wouldn't have made such a point of how dangerous he was if he wasn't actually of some danger. That's like saying where's the drama in Citizen Kane, it's just a sled.

And this is probably the quintessential problem of this type of superhero: you give them a certain mix of outrageous powers and suddenly everything seems grossly outmatched. So you have to come up with ever more outrageous enemies to threaten them. But since the superheroes have to prevail, the next enemy has to be even larger than the previous one. And after a couple of issues you're in bonkers-land.

OK, so what you're saying is you don't like comics or superheroes so... why are you... the point of having too many powers is they need a good weakness or some kind of pathos or the story gets dull. Most good writers can manage this, but even if not, there are a fistful of really awesomeley written comics and one of the best in the bunch (Alan Moore's run on swamp thing) had a ludicrously over-powered main character, he was pretty much immortal, unstoppable and controlled all plant life but he not only got killed he had genuine risks and every single issue of that included at least one original concept. Which is especially fun because it was a reboot of a dead franchise and if Total Recall is anything to go by, Hollywood can't quite manage that without making a steaming pile of poop.

 

[-Dragmire-]

Superman, give him the Midas touch that turns everything he comes into contact with into kryptonite.

 

[RubyT]

even though it's the same exact character the things they do and the character itself is different. If you can name another fictional character (aside from Sherlock Holmes) who can have stories told about them in such a way then I'd be interested to hear it.

How's that a good thing? You have a different story and a different character, but you put a batcape on him to get the fans to buy it.
You could do this in other media, just nobody would accept it. "In this volume, Harry Potter is a womanizing daredevil who fights crime..."

Interestingly enough, the drama was intended to be the other 2 hours in that 2 hour 30 film. Or alternatively when they believe Iron Man's dead because of his effort to pilot a nuke through a portal or

Ah, those 30 seconds.

The entire point of the Hulk (heck, even how they built him up) is he's an analogue to the same nuclear bomb that created him. He's a man-made weapon who causes huge amounts of damage when unleaashed while crossed with the Jekyll and Hyde thing. They wouldn't have made such a point of how dangerous he was if he wasn't actually of some danger. That's like saying where's the drama in Citizen Kane, it's just a sled.

So it's okay if the Hulk is basically one walking Deus Ex Machina. They built him up as irrational and uncontrollable, yet when it counted, he even followed orders.

The drama of the final battle in Avengers was that the Aliens threatened to take over/destroy the world. But when Hulk entered an proved to be invulnerable to their weaponry and easily able to take down their battleships, it just became a question of how much havoc they can wreak before he smashes them. In a video game, you'd call this button mashing. The Alien ships didn't even have a particular weakness that needed to be exploited (and that could have been difficult to alert dumb ol' Hulk to).

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

How's that a good thing? You have a different story and a different character, but you put a batcape on him to get the fans to buy it.
You could do this in other media, just nobody would accept it. "In this volume, Harry Potter is a womanizing daredevil who fights crime..."

Not what I said it's the same character but it's a different aspect, it's taking a character with one note and then putting different lights on it. Like, sticking with Batman, you can focus on how he's quite clearly a psychologically damaged billionaire in a costume who is all too mortal or focus on how he's a terrifying 'mythic' figure to the criminal underworld. It's the same character but it isn't the same story repeated ad nauseum. If we're going by Harry Potter that can be summed up by"Harry goes to Hogwarts, event of no real importance occurs, Harry's personality remains entirely unchanged, it's insinuated Voldemort's coming back, Harry goes back home" <- there, first 3 books,

Ah, those 30 seconds.

Interesting spelling of 2 hours . I'm gonna assume you mean the bit where everyone thinks Iron Man's dead; but do I need to list every example of when they use dramatics? Because I really, really don't have the energy to do it. Loki and his inferiority complex alone will take me forever.

So it's okay if the Hulk is basically one walking Deus Ex Machina. They built him up as irrational and uncontrollable, yet when it counted, he even followed orders.

The drama of the final battle in Avengers was that the Aliens threatened to take over/destroy the world. But when Hulk entered an proved to be invulnerable to their weaponry and easily able to take down their battleships, it just became a question of how much havoc they can wreak before he smashes them. In a video game, you'd call this button mashing. The Alien ships didn't even have a particular weakness that needed to be exploited (and that could have been difficult to alert dumb ol' Hulk to).

See, the problem here is that you assume that because Hulk will survive anyone else will. Ignoring the fact he cold-cocked Thor at least once in that fight (which I'm reasonably sure no-one told him to do unless Iron Man's got a particularly sadistic sense of humor), that there was a vastly bigger ship waiting to go through before they shut the portal, the incoming threat of a nuke (again, Hulk'd be fine its the rest of New York with the problem) and the fact just about every other hero got the living crap kicked out of them (Cap being a particularly good example), Hulk is just one big green monster.

Even if he didn't show it in the movie, he gets tired, and it wouldn't be impossibke, given they have a portal, to come through and fly off in 360 degrees formation. There's no way Hulk would catch all of them and since the other 5 heroes were all pretty close to being killed anyway, they only need to wait a bit and then they win. It may not look it to you, but that battle could have ended very differently (ignoring the fact it's a movie and thus a foregone conclusion). Hell, even if you ignore Hulk everyone else was struggling and having an incredibly difficult time.

Incidentally, you are fully entitled to your opinion that it isn't a good movie, I just disagree kindof a lot and wish to make my case that it was a good one.

 

[Tayh]

Captain America.
Was there any other reason to make this character than propaganda?

 

[RubyT]

Not what I said

You said the same character, but "the things they do and the character itself is different". So in the Harry Potter example, there's a reboot and he goes to Hogwarts where he is extremely badass, everyone likes him but he secretly works with Voldemort.
This is what comics occasionally do. And I don't see how that's a good thing. A lot of the time, they seem to either push a different comic into an existing IP, or stretch an IP that has clearly run its course to weird places.

PS I don't like HP, so let's not argue whether or not these were good books.

but do I need to list every example of when they use dramatics? Because I really, really don't have the energy to do it. Loki and his inferiority complex alone will take me forever.

I was talking "drama" in the sense of something being at stake. No matter how bored I was throughout the movie, when the Alien Armada entered NY airspace I did think: well, let's see how they gonna deal with this. And then I learned. Unleash the Hulk. That easy. He was like the ghost army in LotR.

Ignoring the fact he cold-cocked Thor at least once in that fight

Comic relief. Did it ever threaten the mission or Thor?

Even if he didn't show it in the movie, he gets tired, and it wouldn't be impossibke, given they have a portal, to come through and fly off in 360 degrees formation.

So I'm supposed to make up my own threat scenario that the movie didn't bother with? Sure, if you work hard enough, you can make every movie good by filling the voids yourself. Like in Matrix Reloaded, which gets really intense if you think of all the things Agent Smith could be doing to Neo.

the other 5 heroes were all pretty close to being killed anyway

See, I didn't get that either. They seemed to have each other's backs.