Philosophy time

[Necrofudge]

Many Atheists claim that they don't worship god because there is no argument for or against it. (In reality they all just worship Athe the incarnation of nothingness which seeks to render everything as nothingness) However, some people argue that if the premises are true then the outcome is true. Descartes came up with a fairly simple reasoning for the existence of a perfect being. "A cause cannot create an effect greater than itself therefore somewhere down the line there had to be a perfect being" I ask all you atheists and agnostics to try and find a hole in this logic.

I actually was just studying Descartes in one of my college classes. Interesting stuff: I agree with the statement he made.

Notice, however, that most of the reasoning of the people here comes down to "I don't like it, so I don't believe in it." Guys, you realize that if it's true, it won't matter whether you like it or not? Good luck with that.

OK.. well personally I hate those people that say "I don't like it, so I don't believe in it." but they're just the stupid ones. They're not even denying the existence of god. They're not even atheists, just dense people who can't make arguments, only saying they don't agree with it. Great, go Buddhist

 

[Souplex]

(In reality they all just worship Athe the incarnation of nothingness which seeks to render everything as nothingness)
I think "Athe" is a typo, and he meant to write "the"

No, I typed in Athe. Athe-Theists or worshipers of Athe. But that is besides the point, I posed a question that everyone is avoiding because they are too busy taking a joke seriously.

 

[GenHellspawn]

Personally, I would've sited Aquinas' theories for the existence of God, rather than Descartes'. Namely, the First Mover argument, which states that anything that moves must by moved by something else, and so there must've been something that moved without itself being moved ie. God.

 

[Silly_Billy]

THIS IS PARTIALLY A DOUBLE POST. MY MISTAKE

Do you know why I'm an Atheist? I'm an atheist because I don't find the concept of God enjoyable, so I choose not to believe in him.

This isn't the reasoning for any specific religions idea of god, it is just the reasoning for a highest power.

Higher powers are much worst than God in my opinion. At least, God is predictable: Be good, you die and then good things supposedly happen. Be bad, you die then bad thing supposedly happen.

Many Atheists claim that they don't worship god because there is no argument for or against it. (In reality they all just worship Athe the incarnation of nothingness which seeks to render everything as nothingness) However, some people argue that if the premises are true then the outcome is true. Descartes came up with a fairly simple reasoning for the existence of a perfect being. "A cause cannot create an effect greater than itself therefore somewhere down the line there had to be a perfect being" I ask all you atheists and agnostics to try and find a hole in this logic.

Wait, what?

I'm not going to bother looking Athe up but your logic is very, very flawed. Are aquaphobics afraid of the goddess Aquarius?

 

[Silly_Billy]

(In reality they all just worship Athe the incarnation of nothingness which seeks to render everything as nothingness)
I think "Athe" is a typo, and he meant to write "the"

No, I typed in Athe. Athe-Theists or worshipers of Athe. But that is besides the point, I posed a question that everyone is avoiding because they are too busy taking a joke seriously.

Misrepresenting the present majority and the overall minority is "besides the point"?

 

[Eldarion]

Many Atheists claim that they don't worship god because there is no argument for or against it. (In reality they all just worship Athe the incarnation of nothingness which seeks to render everything as nothingness)

Ok you have NO CLUE what you are talking about.

We just don't believe in god. Simple as that. And I first rejected god before deciding I didn't believe in him.

You don't know crap about what you are criticizing.

Uh have you taken philosophy ever? Atheists say prove to me there is a God while people who do believe say prove to me there isn't to atheists. It's a subjective topic where nothing can be proven because you can't give evidence to something like this so hence no point in arguing about it like the OT said. Plus both sides usually reverse the burden of proof telling each other to prove it.

Yes I have taken philosophy, nothing about my post hinted at ignorance of the subject.

You are assuming all atheists exist to challenge the belief of a higher power. That isn't true. Some do and are outspoken against the idea of god but that doesn't represent all of us.

You have the right to believe anything you want, so do I. I choose not to believe in or acknowledge god. That doesn't mean I am attacking your religion. But again, the atheist side is just as guilty of attacks against Christians but hate doesn't beget more hate.

There is NO proof for or against god either way so both arguments are equally invalid anyway. Why can't we just agree to disagree?

Leave me to my beliefs and I leave you to yours.

 

[fudgebo]

Do atheists all put as much zealous faith in not believing in a higher power?

 

[Kpt._Rob]

The hole is in the conclusion. Something can cause a reaction greater than itself. What Decartes meant was that something can not consciously create something greater than itself, THAT is true. But Decartes lacked the theory of evolution, he didn't understand that the complex nature of life could be explained by natural causes, as opposed to conscious creation. Given that fact, we can actually use Occam's razor to dismiss the hypothesis of God as terminus to cause as inferior to a natural cause which would be simpler (the big bang, smolen selection, etc...)

Also, please shut up about things you don't know. Atheists do not all worship nothingness, or any such stupid premise. Why would someone worship nothingness? It'd be sillier than worshiping a box of facial tissues, or a limited edition big daddy figurine. Maybe you should actually read what atheists are saying before you make such blatantly rediculous claims. One can only hope that Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris could, at the very least, set you straight on what atheism is about.

 

[DannyBoy451]

(In reality they all just worship Athe the incarnation of nothingness which seeks to render everything as nothingness)
I think "Athe" is a typo, and he meant to write "the"

No, I typed in Athe. Athe-Theists or worshipers of Athe. But that is besides the point, I posed a question that everyone is avoiding because they are too busy taking a joke seriously.

Ah, now I get it.

Also: I think the reason nobody's adressing your question has more to do with the fact that it's rambling, and makes very little sense.

 

[Souplex]

Do atheists all put as much zealous faith in not believing in a higher power?

This wasn't about zealotry, I started this thread so you could all think creatively and logically, the whole religion thing was just because that is how the only way to really ask the question.

 

[Satin6T]

I have faith, thats why I'm a Christian

I don't care if your an athiest, don't try and convince me and I won't troll you

 

[bodyklok]

Descartes came up with a fairly simple reasoning for the existence of a perfect being. "A cause cannot create an effect greater than itself therefore somewhere down the line there had to be a perfect being"

The argument is almost logically valid. But the main problem is not with the logic of the argument, it is with the premises the argument is based off of. Using a logically sound argument based of faulty premises is just as bad as using a logically fallacious argument based of sound premises.

In this case there are two premises:

Given that the original source of all of consciousness, itself, cannot be unconscious - this is a common assumption of people trying to prove the existence of God, but no one has been able to show any evidence or any logical argument as to why this is the case.

That consciousness, itself, cannot be inferior to itself - this is obvious, but meaningless. It is like saying "the number 1 cannot be less than the number 1". Obviously nothing can be inferior to itself, otherwise it would be two things and not one. I think what your was trying to say is that the original source of consciousness cannot be inferior to later sources of consciousness, but this has not been established by logic or evidence.

For more details on why the ontological argument sucks, visit youtube. Oh, and what's the definition of perfect again? Does a perfect thing even exist, and I mean objectively perfect btw.

Now, and you'll have to excuse me for this, I have to get some homework done.

I suggest that next time you want to make a thread about philosophy-fill it with meaning. This is pointless.

 

[feather240]

Lets assume that the universe had to always exist because it has too. I'm not talking about emptiness I'm talking about no room to put anything inside, on the outside, or in the boundary between them, and their still isn't anything in existence. The universe was the first thing and nothing can be more important than everything. [/thread]

 

[YukoValis]

The effect cannot be greater then it's cause? Are you joking? If you throw a pebble down a hill and start a landslide. Your tiny cause just made a HUGE effect. Atheists don't "worship" anything. That's the point of being Atheist, we realize that it is us humans who have the power and will to not be mindless sheep for some religion that can never prove itself real. We value truth and deny the honey various faiths try to pour in our ears.

 

[A Weary Exile]

Believing in a diety is only a way to stave off the ever-present fear that exists in all humans: the realization that death is final. Thinking that there is an afterlife comforts those who can't face their own mortality.

Now if the product of a force can never be greater than the initial force itself, what greater force created this 'God'? Did he simply appear from nothingness? (Violates the Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy, mind you) Or are is there a never-ending chain of increasingly powerful dieties creating one another? This is where this theory is flawed.

No one, and I mean no one, will ever know how the universe truly came to be; but that doesn't mean that we should fill in whatever answer makes us feel better.

 

[fudgebo]

Do atheists all put as much zealous faith in not believing in a higher power?

This wasn't about zealotry, I started this thread so you could all think creatively and logically, the whole religion thing was just because that is how the only way to really ask the question.

Okeydokey, then i apologise and ask why does a perfect being have to be a god? Couldn't they be some sort of superman/woman? and i din't mean that in comic book terms.

 

[HerrBobo]

Many Atheists claim that they don't worship god because there is no argument for or against it. (In reality they all just worship Athe the incarnation of nothingness which seeks to render everything as nothingness) However, some people argue that if the premises are true then the outcome is true. Descartes came up with a fairly simple reasoning for the existence of a perfect being. "A cause cannot create an effect greater than itself therefore somewhere down the line there had to be a perfect being" I ask all you atheists and agnostics to try and find a hole in this logic.

I'm an atheists and I do not need some dead French guy telling how to think. The reason I do not belive in God is because I do not need to.

 

[feather240]

Believing in a diety is only a way to stave off the ever-present fear that exists in all humans: the realization that death is final. Thinking that there is an afterlife comforts those who can't face their own mortality.

Now if the product of a force can never be greater than the initial force itself, what greater force created this 'God'? Did he simply appear from nothingness? (Violates the Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy, mind you) Or are is there a never-ending chain of increasingly powerful dieties creating one another? This is where this theory is flawed.

No one, and I mean no one, will ever know how the universe truly came to be; but that doesn't mean that we should fill in whatever answer makes us feel better.

I agree with everything, but that last statement. I like to believe that I created the world in my past life, and now that it's my second coming I must smite the non-believers in a cleansing fire... BWAHAHAHAHAH

 

[Radeonx]

Do you know why I'm an Atheist? I'm an atheist because I don't find the concept of God enjoyable, so I choose not to believe in him.

This isn't the reasoning for any specific religions idea of god, it is just the reasoning for a highest power.

My logic works for all religions.

 

[Eldarion]

Believing in a diety is only a way to stave off the ever-present fear that exists in all humans: the realization that death is final. Thinking that there is an afterlife comforts those who can't face their own mortality.

Now if the product of a force can never be greater than the initial force itself, what greater force created this 'God'? Did he simply appear from nothingness? (Violates the Law of Conservation of Matter/Energy, mind you) Or are is there a never-ending chain of increasingly powerful dieties creating one another? This is where this theory is flawed.

No one, and I mean no one, will ever know how the universe truly came to be; but that doesn't mean that we should fill in whatever answer makes us feel better.

This side is flawed too.

There is no proof that there is a god.

We have no idea what started the universe.

Both have massive holes in the concept, both equally valid opinions.

Nothing wrong with picking the one that makes the most sense to you.


Human beings are flawed by nature anyway, so nothing we come up with is likely to be correct all the time.