'Pick-up artist' banned from the UK

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

*snip*

I thought you said you weren't a lawyer.

Guess I should go read up more on this, then.

I understand that you people don't like the guy and want him stung to death by scorpions because he kissed girls, but all these claims about how he's a mass sexual assaulter that's just been wily enough to evade prosecution hold no water, at least when made in this particular time continuum.

Dude. It's not about randomly kissing girls. Why are you ignoring the fact he's been caught on video shoving women's faces into his crotch, and teaching other guys "Hey guys, you can get away with anything with asian women, go grab their heads and shove them onto your dicks, you'll totally get away with it!"? Not to mention promoting his seminars with "You want to sleep with nay woman you want? Pay me and rape them!"? Not to mention him saying that randomly choking a woman is a good way to start "seducing" them (wish I had video of that, but he seems to have removed them and I don't want to spend 20 minutes digging through the internet for them).

Seriously, what he's teaching is illegal and harmful.

It's like if I hosted a seminar telling bullies how to track down and assault their favourite high school victims after graduation and assault them in the most violent way possible and get away with it, with videos of myself ganking my own targets with a sudden kick to the nads, and then making them drink my piss after breaking their ribs, and going "See, if you go fast enough and wear a mask and say 'this mofo raped mah sista', then you'll get away with it!". What I'd be teaching and encouraging would be illegal and harmful and should be stopped.

Do I want him murdered by scorpions? No! I just don't want him coming to my country and spreading this bullshit and sexually assaulting women, and I want him actually charged with the stuff he did. Seriously, keep this guy out of Canada too!

I don't know why the guy hasn't been charged yet with videos going around of him admitting to several sexual assaults and them being caught on camera. I seriously don't. The only explanation at this point is that Japan just doesn't give a fuck.


And Lil Devils just linked to a video where the guy hosting it shows the guy in action. So at least we can totally verify the face-crotch thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK4eUKUveOY

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I'll let you work the math to figure out where you may be going wrong.

Yeah, where I'm going wrong is continuing this conversation when clearly we're never going to see eye to eye on this, and the sincerity of your arguments is very much in question.

I was beginning to think that you were just toying with me, and now that you bring up "Random youtuber has an agenda and a plush doll fetish" as an argument, I'm now 100% certain that you're just baiting me for attention.

This isn't worth my time. Abandoning thread.

 

[Jesterscup]

I really didn't want to chime in on this thread, I think we can all agree this person is pretty vile, and if you disagree, please let me know, since I'll happily list you along with them as vile.

I think his seminars are enough under UK law to allow the government to refuse entry, as they can easily under the provision that they can deny entry under the condition that the person will either commit or incite a crime to be committed. And bear in mind it can be considered sexual assault to touch someone in a sexual manner ( can be a kiss, touching any part of their body, eg. holding their neck ) without their consent. "sexual manner" specifies intent. beyond that physical contact of a threatening manner ( even if not damaging ) can be considered assault. So it is rather clear that his seminars encourage others to break the law, and do so quite clearly.

One thing that I do want to say though, is that I've had the sad experience to actually meet people with this sort of attitude, worse many of them self identify as "dominants" or "masters" in the BDSM community, and frankly these people are the worse sort of predators out there, and give what can be a beautiful consensual & respuctful experience a very bad name and image. Do not mistake behaviour like this as being 'dominant'.

 

[Machine Man 1992]

"Harassment" and "sexism" and "disrespect to women" have been overused on the silliest shit, to the point that when I hear them, I immediately want to side against the people claiming it.

I understand how you can feel that given that over-saturation can occur, but can I ask you to take a moment and think:
What's worse, when people overuse the phrases "harassment" and "sexism" and "disrespect to women", or when those things happen? And so, from there, which stance should you be taking by default?

Well I dislike people in general, so.... Probably going to reserve judgement until I see proof of the assertion.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Dude. It's not about randomly kissing girls. Why are you ignoring the fact he's been caught on video shoving women's faces into his crotch, and teaching other guys "Hey guys, you can get away with anything with asian women, go grab their heads and shove them onto your dicks, you'll totally get away with it!"? Not to mention promoting his seminars with "You want to sleep with nay woman you want? Pay me and rape them!"? Not to mention him saying that randomly choking a woman is a good way to start "seducing" them (wish I had video of that, but he seems to have removed them and I don't want to spend 20 minutes digging through the internet for them).

I'm not ignoring it. I'm ignoring highly edited videos put online by people with agendas. And, apparently, really severe plush doll fetishes. Two things that always make me suspicious.

It's like if I hosted a seminar telling bullies how to track down and assault their favourite high school victims after graduation and assault them in the most violent way possible and get away with it, with videos of myself ganking my own targets with a sudden kick to the nads, and then making them drink my piss after breaking their ribs, and going "See, if you go fast enough and wear a mask and say 'this mofo raped mah sista', then you'll get away with it!". What I'd be teaching and encouraging would be illegal and harmful and should be stopped.

If you posted videos of yourself committing assault in that manner, and there was a widespread movement against you, you'd be prosecuted.

This asshole has (allegedly) posted videos of himself committing what you claim be assault, there is a widespread movement against him, and he has yet to be prosecuted.

I'll let you work the math to figure out where you may be going wrong.

My only hint: behavior you dislike is not, de facto, illegal.

Julien Blanc was the first one to put his videos online as a form of advertising his classes. He was quite proud of walking around grabbing their heads and ramming their faces on his genitals until he realized that he was going to be banned from nations for doing so and then took down his own videos. This footage comes from his videos, and that is how he presented this as he was very proud and thought guys should pay him to learn how to do this too.

The problem here is that he thought it acceptable to sexually assault strangers and teach others to until it was brought to his attention that Nations were actually starting to ban him from this and harming him financially due to the publicity this has received.

AT first, he welcomed the publicity as he thought it would increase his business, but when it had a negative impact, as well as people wanting to hold him criminally responsible for his actions that he started to back track and change his message and remove his videos.

He actually DID post videos of his assaults and there is now a movement growing against him, so yes he very well could be charged in the future as well as another guy from his group could be charged who has openly publicized boasting of how he raped a woman.

 

[Kathinka]

Spoiler

"tricking women into having sex"

I'm sorry, what? What kind of accusation is that?

It's more like teaching which girls can be targeted to rape because they are unlikely to press charges.
The manipulation aspect plays into making sure they don't go to law enforcement/family after the rape.

It's kindof like reading a page on why so many rape victims don't go to the police, and saying "hey that would make a good class".

I would argue that manipulating someone into sex, while certainly not a nice thing to do, is nowhere near the same as rape. While one could argue that it isn't moral, it isn't illegal either, and doesn't give one any reason to go to the police with it. Regretting sex with someone doesn't make the other one a criminal.

Some types of manipulation blur the lines of rape, threats violence against friends or loved ones if they go to the police, threats that if they go to the police everyone will know they're a "whore", telling them they're equally at fault because it's obvious they enjoyed it.

And this isn't being used on someone sitting here thinking logically, it's used on someone that is most likely drunk, does not have a friend around them, and looks troubled, the guy was pretty explicit in who to target using his "techniques".

Psychological manipulation can be much more potent then just physical violence, and the fact that most people have no knowledge of it makes it even easier.

Well and true, but I'd still argue against the illegality (except the threats you mentioned. Blackmailing and threatening someone to have your way is clearly illegal. But I found no indication that this is part of this guys MO.)
We all employ some degree of social manipulation every day, on the job, in our social circles, and of course when flirting and looking for a potential mate. Just having a more aggressive and systematized method and targeting people that are troubled is, while mayhaps immoral, by no means illegal.

To be fair I haven't researched enough to know exactly what this guy teaches, just mostly from the news stories and cuts featured in the Japanese video.

That being said I think the use of physical force and targeting of women who won't go to the police paints this as more then just "a more aggressive systematized method" that normal people employee when hitting on people they're interested in.

I won't say it's legal or illegal because I'm not well versed in sexual assault laws, but it's not simply "tricking girls into having sex" as the first guy stated.

What would she go to the police for though? (in a scenario where someone used whatever psychological mumbo jumbo, no physical force or threats or somesuch.) Purely manipulating people is nothing you can go to the cops for. We all do it, some just different than others. Now matter how unstable someone is, talking them into a decision they'll regret is by no sane definition 'rape'.

There's a reason I've mentioned the physical aspect in almost every post I've made here.

I really dislike how you're downplaying the psychological aspect of it by calling it "talking them into a decision they'll regret" but yes, it's not rape, just really fucked up.

I excluded the physical aspect because that one is clearly unambiguously unlawful if it happens without consent, no argument here.
I focused on the psychological aspect because some people on this thread make him sound like some evil wizard abusing his magic power, going as far as to call it "rape", which is a slap in the face to any person that was actually a rape victim and an insult to anyone with a working brain. Nor does he "teach anyone how to get away with rape" or any such nonsense.
He doesn't have any special powers, he's just a cocky asshole who knows how to present himself in a way that makes him seem attractive. Victimizing his targets and painting them in the light of helpless, agency-free targets of him isn't the way to go on about discussing this, without question, very messed up individual. Credit where credit is due, but let's not poison the actual discussion by buzzwords and hysteria.

 

[ryukage_sama]

That's up to the UK really. I wouldn't want one more of that type of guy in my country, and there's no diplomatic downside, so I'd agree with their decision.

 

[Jesterscup]

I excluded the physical aspect because that one is clearly unambiguously unlawful if it happens without consent, no argument here.
I focused on the psychological aspect because some people on this thread make him sound like some evil wizard abusing his magic power, going as far as to call it "rape", which is a slap in the face to any person that was actually a rape victim and an insult to anyone with a working brain. Nor does he "teach anyone how to get away with rape" or any such nonsense.
He doesn't have any special powers, he's just a cocky asshole who knows how to present himself in a way that makes him seem attractive. Victimizing his targets and painting them in the light of helpless, agency-free targets of him isn't the way to go on about discussing this, without question, very messed up individual. Credit where credit is due, but let's not poison the actual discussion by buzzwords and hysteria.

No, as a survivor of abuse, I'd say letting people like him express their views to be a slap in the face. Any and all sexual crime, especially violent sexual crime, has a strong and deep psychological factor, this can not be underestimated. Beyond the actual actions of the person, the psychological effect can be deeply damaging, when asked what they recall, most survivors will recall the attackers face or eyes rather than the act itself. Simply experiencing someone with the same attitudes and behaviours, can be deeply unsettling. The behaviours ( 'magical power' ) this person, and people like him exploit are very similar indeed.

"Magic power" :- Beyond that, as a performer, I'm well aware of many tricks that can be employed without ethical regard, you'd be surprised what you can 'make' someone do. it's even possible to 'make' someone believe that they chose or wanted something, mentalists, hypnotists and illusionists have been using these for centuries. Does he use these tricks? I've no idea ( I've not seen his 'stuff'), but i'd be surprised if he wasn't ( to some extent, in one form or another), from what I can tell most of these ' get any woman you want' systems rely on these sorts of thing. As someone who can use/do some of these tricks I'm painfully aware how easily they could be abused, to the point where I would never teach them, nor perform any such tricks on anyone who does clearly and explicitly consent beforehand.

I find justification of him very difficult to believe, whatever you think or believe, the UK government has decided there is enough evidence to deny him entry, thats good enough for me. Argue with people on here being biased, using edited youtube videos to promote an agenda, are you accusing the UK Government of doing the same? Frankly I'm going to side with the government here, as there is the possibility of their decision being legally challenged, I'm going to assume that they made their choice with the clear knowledge of whether it could be legally justified. For them to deny him entry they would need to show good cause to believe that he would commit a crime, for instance coming to the country to perform publicly in a way that breaks the law.

he's just a cocky asshole who knows how to present himself in a way that makes him seem attractive.

Thats not enough for him to not be allowed entry into the UK, it's not. him being under suspicion of a crime in another country, not enough. Evidence that his performances would break the law in this country, and his intention to perform? Enough, clearly in the eyes of the UK government, such evidence exists. You may dispute that, go right ahead, I'm going to side with a legal decision made by the legal authorities of my country.

Were he just a 'cocky asshole' with good presentation skills then he'd have been allowed in, there is clearly more to him than that. So what is the "actual discussion" that is being poisoned by facts ( yes facts, legal and currently legally undisputed decisions)?

 

[Sansha]

I say let him in. If this asshole wants to make some incredible bank off telling slightly lesser assholes how to make fucking idiots of themselves in front of girls and get the shit kicked out of them by bouncers who don't have time for their stupid bullshit, let 'em have it.

Seriously now, where else but America would this kind of lunatic enterprise come from?

I'm neither mad nor offended. I'm impressed. It's the kind of shit I would pull if I wanted to sell my integrity.

 

[Kathinka]

mighty snip

Oh make no mistake, I'm not debating that he should have been let into the country. That's not what I was saying. I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of hysteria thrown around here that harms the legitimate complaints.
I've actually seen some of his stuff (I'll freely admit that I obtained it by..alternative means. Fuck giving that Douchebag money!) and there really is no wizardry to it. No hypnosis tricks, no rituals to gain favors with Hastur, just some pseud-scientific crap and a bunch of how to come across confident, cocky and desirable for females. He isn't teaching anyone any cheat codes to get the girl if she wants or not. He certainly doesn't teach anyone how to get away with rape or abuse. The basic thing is: You aren't protected from anyone's attempts of coercion or manipulation. Everyone does it, you do it, I do it, he does it. If stuff like that interests you, read up on social manipulation and its principles, it's a very educational and useful topic.
He also isn't currently, from what I could find, being charged or investigated. The girls in question in Japan apparently either were OK with his dickish behavior or didn't see it as a big enough deal to press legal claims against him. Despite the current viral campaign, remarkably. The reason why he was denied entry into the UK is because of the very loud public outcry. Even the nicest guy in the world would have been denied entry if it somehow would have raised the amount of hysteria that this clown did. But again, I'm not saying that it was wrong of the UK to deny him entry. Just pointing out that this doesn't mean he is a vile criminal serial rapist, just that enough people screamed loud enough.

 

[Czann]

Somehow this guy became worse than Hitler, Mao and Stalin if they were mixed together in an unholy mass of genocidal, multi armed flesh.

PC bullshit as usual.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

SNIP

The video of him harassing a cashier and forcing womens heads into his crotch has been posted. Thoughts?

EDIT: Nvm, dude likes dolls.

 

[Parasondox]

Somehow this guy became worse than Hitler, Mao and Stalin if they were mixed together in an unholy mass of genocidal, multi armed flesh.

PC bullshit as usual.

What PC bullshit?

 

[Jesterscup]

The girls in question in Japan apparently either were OK with his dickish behavior or didn't see it as a big enough deal to press legal claims against him.

Pure supposition here, but Japan has a very different culture to the UK, I wouldn't make assumptions. It could very well be the case that coming forward to the police was far more shameful.

Are you aware that many many victims of sexual crime never report it? "not worth it?" do you know how high that bar really is? going to the police, the medical examinations, the chance of public ridicule, shaming, and all of this when you are dealing with the aftermath of a pretty darn horrific experience? Fact is I don't know what happened in Japan, even if I 'read' up on it I wouldn't have the facts, I'm not going to make a call one way or another.

The reason why he was denied entry into the UK is because of the very loud public outcry.

Nope, again supposition, you can potentially infer that, but it really doesn't stand up as an argument. The only way to be absolutely sure would be for the visa application decision to be appealed in court ( which can be done), for for an FOI request ( which I suspect you'd have to wait 25 years for the information to be released). The only statement the home office gave was that the decision was taken "on public policy grounds" - this does NOT infer that it was based on public outcry, it is far far more likely that it was based on our already clearly defined visa criteria. The UK in it's time has let some truly horrific people onto it's shores, and against greater public dissent because there were no legal grounds to deny permission. In addition we've denied people and been forced to grant them access, despite ,again, public opposition.

In the absence of an appeal, I suspect, and will assume that his seminars are/would have been actually illegal in this country, I'll wait till the law says otherwise thanks.

 

[Czann]

Somehow this guy became worse than Hitler, Mao and Stalin if they were mixed together in an unholy mass of genocidal, multi armed flesh.

PC bullshit as usual.

What PC bullshit?

Denying entry to this guy just because an annoying but vocal minority is screaming their heads off. Guy may be an asshole but last time I checked being one wasn't a crime yet.

 

[Parasondox]

For anyone that lives in the UK, here in the US we have Militant Survivalist groups with compounds in remote areas protected by the 1st and 2nd amendments though they're gradually being targeted for dispersal with powers of the Homeland Security Act. Do you have survivalist groups in the UK?

I think we may have one or two of them but not to the extreme of stocking up on weapons for an invasion/war but mostly storing canned foods, meds and other things.

 

[ProtoChimp]

I remember signing the petitions to ban him a couple weeks ago. That man encourages sexual assault, jesus christ he chokes women for fun and teaches men how to threaten women for sex. That is sexual assault right there, and eventually this dude will probably downright rape someone, it is a disgrace he hasn't been thrown into prison in one of the many countries he has committed incredibly obvious and disgusting crimes in.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Somehow this guy became worse than Hitler, Mao and Stalin if they were mixed together in an unholy mass of genocidal, multi armed flesh.

PC bullshit as usual.

What PC bullshit?

Denying entry to this guy just because an annoying but vocal minority is screaming their heads off. Guy may be an asshole but last time I checked being one wasn't a crime yet.

They could let the guy in, allow him to speak, then have him arrested for violating the laws for encouraging others to commit crimes as well. However, I think they are choosing to avoid an international incident by just not allowing the guy who would have already broken UK laws if he had been on UK soil into their nation at all. It is illegal in many nations to encourage others to commit crimes, as well as sexual assaulting strangers is considered to be illegal as well.

They are not allowing him in because he sexually assaulted women and is encouraging others to do so as well, That is against UK law, not because of a "vocal minority" LOL

 

[Parasondox]

Somehow this guy became worse than Hitler, Mao and Stalin if they were mixed together in an unholy mass of genocidal, multi armed flesh.

PC bullshit as usual.

What PC bullshit?

Denying entry to this guy just because an annoying but vocal minority is screaming their heads off. Guy may be an asshole but last time I checked being one wasn't a crime yet.

And once again the UK don't have to accept anyone they don't want too and as others pointed out, its more than just an asshole being an asshole but an asshole who is advocating a crime. Any nation can deny anyone even the USA. As much as many may disagree with UK law, they take any kind of assault and physical action very very seriously. So the vocal minority may have shouted but its up the Home Office investigate themselves and they found something to justify the decision. Also no one compared him to Hitler, Mao and Stalin.

 

[SecondPrize]

The world isn't fair. He can reap what he's sown. This isn't a question of whether he's done something that deserves denial of a visa because of regulations on entry, it's a matter of one guy being such a gigantic prick that a country has said, "no thanks."