Piracy, simply put.

[BlazeRaider]

Your definition of "force" seems way to broad imo, the people who made the product should have a right to charge what they want for it, by your logic people at the grocery store are "forcing you" to buy their goods because they sell them a a price they decide.

Technically they do, the only difference is that they can get away with it, and even justify it logically.

But if there would be an easy way to cheaply create my own grocery, and then the store owners would try to make it unavailable, I would also complain that they are forcing an obselete business on me.

I think there is a difference there, in that your free to make your own grocery store, but I don't think your allowed to copy theirs, likewise here, your free to make your own game, but your not allowed to copy theirs.

And I still think your view of what constitutes force is too broad, people are allowed to charge what they believe is fair for their products and services, and have a right to refuse engaging in trade if they view the trade as unfair. A seller can refuse to sell you something if the price is too low. Tell me, do you have a right to refuse selling your labour if the price is considered unfair? If an employer wants you too work for an unsustainable wage, lets say 10 cents an hour, are you 'forcing' him by telling him you'll only work for a wage you can live on? Would he then have a right to take your labour regardless of your consent because he and the majority of people in the society you live in view 10 cents as fair? And even if this is considered force, I don't think that this force is necessarily a bad thing, right?

I realize there are some differences in that your labour is lost while a game seller still has theirs, but I am not concerned with what damage is done so much as what rights are violated, do you think people have a right to refuse deals they feel is unfair, and a right to be protected by people who would try to circumvent those rights?

 

[Ascarus]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO, let me tell you a story. About a month ago EA decided to have special one day deal and give away mirror's edge on the iphone for free. The only reason I picked up this game was because it was free. Guess what one day while playing this game in my class someone else saw it and said HEY that game looks like fun and then bought it at full price. This is not an isolated incident. An author decided to release a book for free for about a week and the month after that he witnessed a boom in the amount of sales that his book had. So what might have originally been one pirated copy may have evolved into 5 sales.

this is completely irrelevant. at no point in either of your examples was anything stolen.

This is not an isolated incident.

what a wonderful sentiment. proving it would be incredibly difficult despite all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary. i hear plenty of people say "i got this for free and then decided to buy it" (what and why?) or "i got this for free and others bought it".

you what still sticks there for me? someone still initially stole it.

fix abused copyright law and you will significantly decrease the amount of piracy and the degree to which it impacts the entertainment industry as a whole.

 

[Mau95]

Hey, leave the Christians out of this!
You have to pay 5 dollars for 4 blocks? Here you pay 2 euros and you get to ride around as long as you want(provided you do not get off).

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

The Bus analogy is a perfect one. A bus can hold sixty people, and twenty people pay to ride. Another ten want to ride, but cannot pay. Should they be turned away? No, they shouldn't. The reason you let them ride for free is once they've learned that they like riding the bus, they've become a potential customer. Some will never actually pay to ride, but as long as they aren't taking up space from paying customers, that's not an issue to anyone. Moreover, if just ONE person goes from free-rider to paying customer, wasn't it worth the freebies you gave out?

That's pretty much how the bulk of piracy works; you aren't losing anything physical. At worst, you're losing POTENTIAL. Thing is, that happens EVERY FUCKING DAY. I walked past a Starbucks today whilst thinking "I could sure use a drink." I didn't go in. Instead, I decided to wait until I got home. OH NO! I'VE STOLEN A SALE OFF STARBUCKS!
That is how stupid anti-piracy people sound to us. Whenever we're told "this is just like stealing a jet plane!" we dismiss the speaker as a retard.

The bus does one thing: it gets you from point A to point B for X amount of money. Are you seriously trying to tell me you can't work out if that would be beneficial to you without a test-run? If you pay to ride the bus, and discover it wasn't worth the money, you haven't been cheated. You paid for a service and you got what you agreed to pay for.

No, it's not worth the freebies. That person has still gotten those rides for free (that sounds dangerously close to the person who tried to justify pirating the Assassin Creed games by buying different Ubisoft games).

It's the same with video games. If you are unsure about a video game, maybe you don't buy it straight away. You don't illegally download it under the basis you weren't going to pay for it anyway. Let me tell you, if you're want the game bad stuff that you're willing to BREAK THE LAW in order to get it, you have enough of a vested interest in the game that you should pay for it.

For example, Skyrim doesn't really appeal to me. I've never played an Elder Scrolls game and I don't really have any motivation to learn more about it. If I see it for cheap, I might look into picking it up. However, if I went out and illegally downloaded it, that would mean I already have enough of an interest in Skyrim to track down an illegal copy, download it, and BREAK THE LAW just to play a game I claim to have no interest in.

Oh my god, you cannot be serious with that Starbucks analogy. You are not stealing a sale from Starbucks by using a different brand of coffee, because YOU HAVEN'T TAKEN ANYTHING FROM STARBUCKS. It's equivalent exchange: you didn't pay for a Starbucks coffee, so you didn't get a Starbucks coffee. You paid for the coffee you had at home, so you get the coffee you have at home.

If you pirate something, you are getting something while the person who owns the rights to it is getting nothing. That is not an equivalent exchange, and I don't care what half-assed excuse you try to come up with the justify the theft. You have stolen something. They haven't potentially lost anything, because you have actually taken it. You cannot say "I wouldn't have paid for it anyway" because, as I've said, you've wanted it badly enough that you're willing to get it illegally.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Oh? The OP quite clearly confessed to piracy but is yet to recieve mod wrath. I've seen people hammered for less (admitting to pirating a game but then buying it at the first opportunity). Has the Escapist relaxed its rules or is this just to lull us into a false sense of security?

Captain Ackbar, what do you think?

 

[manic_depressive13]

Oh? The OP quite clearly confessed to piracy but is yet to recieve mod wrath. I've seen people hammered for less (admitting to pirating a game but then buying it at the first opportunity). Has the Escapist relaxed its rules or is this just to lull us into a false sense of security?

Captain Ackbar, what do you think?

I actually don't think anyone has been warned in this thread yet for admitting to piracy even though I'm sure I saw it in the past few days. Unless they suddenly decide to jump in and get everyone all at once for it. And I even saw mods in here, which makes it especially odd.

Scary. In fact, another thread about piracy cropped up concurrent with this one and was promptly locked and the OP aggro'd the mods. Oh well, I might as well say my bit:

Anyone who thinks piracy is a black and white issue is a moron. Half the bands whose music I have bought and payed for, with money, I only discovered on youtube. I would never have heard of them unless someone had breached copyright in order to upload them. Piracy = exposure = more sales. Piracy also = free shit = POTENTIALLY lost sales. Whether the profit outweighs the loss or vice versa is merely speculation. You can't know. All we know is that it is conducive to sales in some ways and detrimental in others. I like to think the better the quality of the product the more likely it is to result in a sale.

 

[Dangit2019]

O.K., I pirate music, and I find arguments like these incredibly stupid.

I do it because I don't have money, not because I believe it isn't stealing.

Then the difference between you and those who rationalize piracy, is that you are actually amoral, while other pirates at least have a non-conventional moral system.

Translation of term "non-conventional moral system": Bullshit.

It's not that much better to believe that you are doing something good when you aren't instead of doing something bad and admitting it.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

It is not a true form of theft. However, it is still piracy. We don't have to classify something as theft to say it is wrong.

I don't personally care much about it, even though if I am successful in my pursuits it'll probably be quite the pain in my ass at some point. However, to say "its not theft its not wrong" as some do is false. To determine whether it is wrong we have to get down to the fundamental idea of what intellectual property is.

 

[Eventidal]

Piracy's not stealing, because nothing is taken.

You're right, it's not stealing. It's copyright infringement.

Which is so terrible. *refers you to the latest Jimquisition*
If anything is lost, it's a few bucks out of the pockets of the guys who know next to nothing about games, care nothing for putting out good ones, and only want more money from consumers. The guys who have actually spent a day in their lives toiling away at making those games you love happen are the ones down below, who had to give up all rights to their own IP just so it could see the light of day.

I never really thought it over until Jim brought it up, but all Copyright law is doing in these cases is screwing over the people who deserve the rights to their own games. If you pirate a small game like Jamestown, I have a bone to pick with you. But if you pirate MW3 I couldn't give any fewer shits than I already do, because the people who stand to lose anything over that $60 sale are not the ones who toiled away for hours on the straps on a dozen soldiers' boots or recording gun sounds and tweaking them for hours to get them just right. They're the ones who decided $60 was a fair asking price after the 3th carbon copy of CoD4, and that they had to make MORE money by pushing out expensive map packs and online service subscriptions.

 

[brainslurper]

There NO excuse for piracy. You are just over rationalizing it in an attempt to make yourself feel better about the fact that you are leeching from thousands of people's hard work.

 

[TheRundownRabbit]

There is a lot about piracy that I can't talk about. Yes, I know a guy who has downloaded pirated material, yes, he feels guilty and compelled to support the artists, yes, he knows he's an asshole for taking part in the downloading of pirated material.

PS: I find it rather amusing how this thread is still open, despite there being 3 "report and move on" posts on the first page alone.

 

[Wargamer]

There NO excuse for piracy. You are just over rationalizing it in an attempt to make yourself feel better about the fact that you are leeching from thousands of people's hard work.

What planet do you live on? We can find excuses for MURDER, so piracy is a cakewalk to justify!

 

[Screamarie]

The fact that you have to come here and try to justify your piracy makes me think you have a guilty conscience because you know what you're doing is wrong. Whether people prefer the word piracy, copyright infringement, or stealing, in the end it comes down to the fact that just because the only thing you're taking is data, doesn't mean that someone didn't work long and hard for a profit. So when you pirate you're denying them a profit while you're getting their hard work.

 

[kuroshimo]

Piracy is a very odd case of copyright infringement because it does not deprive a party of anything or generate profit for the offender. In my opinion, the only means to argue against piracy effectively is on a case-by-case basis examining losses on the part of the victims, but that isn't possible because all losses are entirely speculative. On the other hand, several articles linked in this thread indicate that the current state of piracy is, in fact, not detrimental. If one includes the fact that most of us can likely attribute a video game purchase directly to activities that were technically copyright infringement, the case can be made that there is no particularly compelling reason to not pirate. No one so far has claimed that mass piracy wouldn't have a detrimental effect, but neither has anyone proven that that that buying games often, while pirating one every now and then, has some kind of observable negative effect on individuals or the industry.

I say "particularly compelling" because neither the opinion that something is morally wrong, nor the fact that it is illegal in some places is an acceptable argument that one should refrain from an action.
There isn't anything wrong with saying that you find an action 'immoral', but if you want to convince others to abstain from it, you should start with presenting a reason that the action is harmful to themselves or society as a whole.

 

[brainslurper]

There NO excuse for piracy. You are just over rationalizing it in an attempt to make yourself feel better about the fact that you are leeching from thousands of people's hard work.

What planet do you live on? We can find excuses for MURDER, so piracy is a cakewalk to justify!

I assume you are talking about war. If a soldier goes to fight a terrorist group, he is killing people who would kill innocent civilians. He is making the world a better place. A pirate doesn't act to help others, they only think of themselves. If they cared about others they wouldn't be freeloading.

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

I say "particularly compelling" because neither the opinion that something is morally wrong, nor the fact that it is illegal in some places is an acceptable argument that one should refrain from an action.
There isn't anything wrong with saying that you find an action 'immoral', but if you want to convince others to abstain from it, you should start with presenting a reason that the action is harmful to themselves or society as a whole.

How about the fact piracy has caused game publishers to start putting obtrusive DRM into their games, which really only hurt the legitimate customers in the long run?

Also, yeah, something being illegal where you come from is a completely acceptable argument why you shouldn't do something. You aren't being Robin Hood here; you aren't breaking the law to right some injustice.

Face it: most people don't pirate because they believe it to be morally acceptable; they pirate because it's easy and they have little chance of any repercussion.

 

[MasTerHacK]

"Piracy, simply put"

Oh I see, this debate has been raging for over a decade, but FINALLY someone has broken it all down for us, simple style.

let me put it even simpler-er: pirates are lazy freeloaders and publishers are greedy scum-bags.

done!

And I pirate in the spirit of socialism.

 

[CarlMin]

I can't believe the old "piracy isn't stealing" argument is still being tossed around. If you want the game, you have to buy the game. If you don't have to money to buy the game, you shouldn't be playing it. It's that simple.

Now hearing these kiddies of obviously spent quite bit of money on a console or gaming PC, saying they cant afford a 30 dollar game is just preposterous.

 

[Dragonclaw]

I said it many pages ago, but it was probably somthing hard to argue against so it was ignored

On many levels I don't care about the artists or publishers. Do they need more money? Doubtful at best.

What *I* care about, and why piracy pisses me off is that I see how it's affected the people in the trenches. My first job was at a record store. Remember those? Probably not most all but dissapeared the moment CD burners became commonplace. That isn't a coincidence. I liked the vibe of going into a record store. Much like comic shops, they were places where you could interact with like minded people with simillar interests and talk it up with the staff. Just chill and listen to whatever was playing in the place. Occasionally there would be artists signings or even performances in store. It was much more personal than just typing on a screen. We've lost that, and we've lost all the jobs of the people that worked there...The Warehouse, Tower Records, The Record Factory, thousands of mom & pop stores all GONE, and that is thanks to piracy. Having a hard time finding a job? It was much easier before it became so easy to say "we can download everything, the hell with spending money" video stores and book stores have big 'ol targets on their backs and are becoming rarer and rarer as well.

I don't care what the publishers have lost, I care about what we've lost in both jobs and personality & vibe on every "Main Street" around. I have 3 malls near me...and you can't buy a CD or DVD at ANY of them.

 

[Maveroid]

I said it many pages ago, but it was probably somthing hard to argue against so it was ignored

Its a forum, nobody has to respond to you or tell you that you are right or wrong.
Are you egocentric or am I missing something and got the wrong idea from your post?