Piracy, Ubisoft and "the loss"

[SenseOfTumour]

I'm just gonna throw the idea out there that piracy is not theft, but it certainly is dishonest, and it terribly devalues the things copied.

Seriously, if you can have every game you want, for free, are you really going to play any of them to their full potential?

Not only are you not paying for the games, you're not even showing the artists who created them the respect of bothering to spend a decent time enjoying them.

I know that's aside from the financial side of things.

On the financial side, I do agree, companies need to stop treating their customers like criminals, they must know by now that the pirates will undoubtedly have a DRM free, fully hacked, 'doesn't need the disc in the drive' copy of the game, ready to play within a week of any release. Sometimes a week BEFORE release.

'Better than free' is the ideal to go for. Make your game better than the pirated one, offer bonus content from the server after you've proved yourself a legit customer, maybe send out bonus bits in the mail like, Skyrim had a lovely map in the box, maybe send things like that out to genuine customers.

Or Blizzard, facing a decline in WOW subscriptions, recently offered the annual pass.

You agree to sign up for 12 months, but don't need to actually change anything about payments, short of registering a credit card (that only gets charged if you stop payments the other way), and if you do so, you get some bonuses in game, and you get Diablo III for nothing on the release day!

Sounds like a lot to give away, possibly a million or more copies of a game they've not even finished yet. How can they justify it?

DLC.

You've got a million or so people playing D3, you now KNOW you've got a massive userbase who'll maybe be happy to pay for more content.

It's all about carrot not stick.

 

[Fishyash]

Piracy isn't good, of course, but I have to say the publishers definately need to stop going agressive about it. I wanna use the music industry since you mentioned it. I swear most artists that I have heard being interviewed don't really care about filesharing, although the music industry made a massive deal about with napster and stuff. Now look at the music industry taking as much advantage from downloading, sharing, youtube etc. as possible.

The gaming industry needs to stop fighting a losing battle. Every cloud has a silver lining and there is probably a way to find a way to put it to their advantage. Condoning piracy is awful, but starting an guns blaring war against it only hurts the innocent buyers. I think gaming gets hurt by piracy more than music does (artists can still get money from gigs, t-shirts, royalties etc.) but there must be...

ohwait I think...

...ok nevermind that's just stupid, keep looking.

...so close...

 

[Jack Rascal]

Heres an idea, what if some dude wants to play the game and pirates, but wouldnt have had any money to buy a copy anyway.

Yeah, I know. Mind = blown.

I must admit, my mind is utterly blown!! Poor fellow does not have money to buy a game. A game that is not a necessity like food and clothing or a roof over your head. Poor poor thing...

But in all seriousness, not having the money to pay for it is not a justification to steal it

 

[Vegosiux]

But in all seriousness, not having the money to pay for it is not a justification to steal it

Well, the question here was "Does every single pirated copy mean a lost sale?". The answer is, of course, "No. Some would not have bought it in the first place."

See it's hard to defend the anti piracy position when people on your own side destroy your arguments with populist nonsense.

Is piracy a bad and dishonest thing? Why yes, yes it is!

But some "arguments" against are just as ridiculous, and are not making it any easier to make people listen to reason, and are most definitely not helping with making people see why piracy is wrong.

 

[Jack Rascal]

Oh yes, yes YES!! Pirating is direct sales! There is no other reason to pirate a game other than to buy it later. /sarcasm

Seriously though, you actually believe that? You have 6 friends that illegally downloaded a game "to try it". And you think that 1,2 million people are merely trying it out? Oh my...

Without evidence pointing either way, neither of you can prove a point.

In all honesty, it doesn't matter if either can prove the point. Pirating is illegal, even if you only want to try the game out. As an alternative, how about renting it? Or borrowing from a friend? How about trying out the demo (if there is one) or watching videos? Reading reviews? You cannot justify piracy by saying "I only wanted to try it before buying".

All I'll say is, anti piracy measures do more harm to legitimate customers than they do to pirates. They only delay pirates, while treating the legitimate customers like potential perpetrators. Idealistically speaking, one should work on reducing the desirability of piracy by providing a better alternative, but as I said, that's idealistic.

How does antipiracy harm legitimate buyers and delay pirates?

 

[Vegosiux]

In all honesty, it doesn't matter if either can prove the point. Pirating is illegal, even if you only want to try the game out. As an alternative, how about renting it? Or borrowing from a friend? How about trying out the demo (if there is one) or watching videos? Reading reviews? You cannot justify piracy by saying "I only wanted to try it before buying".

Wait now, renting or borrowing it still means you get to play it without buying it, so that doesn't help your argument.

How does antipiracy harm legitimate buyers and delay pirates?

It delays pirates, not stops them. Everything gets cracked. While in the meantime the paying customer has to deal with DRM and game validation systems, jump through hoops in order to enjoy the product they bought - while the pirates laugh on, and play their "No validation, no CD, no DRM" cracked games. And it makes me, a paying customer, feel upset because I'm being treated that way, because I have to jump through hoops, and they don't.

 

[aksel]

Piracy (which is an awesome term, by the way) does not directly cause the loss of sales. The "war on piracy", on the other hand, harms the paying customer in every way, and might cause them to outright refuse to pay for a game.

DRM, online-activation and the likes, only harm the paying customer, as it alienates people with slow/no internet and people who will not stand for being looked at with evil eyes.

Pirates do not have to bother with it, because the game is cracked almost instantly after release, and in these times, more commonly before release.

I have more than often found myself cracking a game I payed full price for on release day, just to play it properly, without having to bother with typing in a long and bothersome key, having internet connection to play, and the most shocking, forcing me to install spyware on my personal possession. And on the case of EA's Origin platform, a non-Origin fix was released, only a few hours following the release of Battlefield 3.

In a perfect world, all games would be pay-what-you-want (see Humble Indie Bundle). However, it is not only the gaming industry that needs a shaking; too many pirates download, enjoy and never even consider paying the developer(s).

 

[mjc0961]

Enjoy, hoping for some nice grown-up discussion.

It's like trying to stop terrorism, bad apples will always find a way to break our hearts ... And just like the war on terrorism, the war on pirating ends up hurting only the paying consumers and the company itself.

Kind of shot yourself in the foot there, didn't you? I mean really, did you just imply we shouldn't try to fight terrorists and stop them from blowing us up or killing us in other ways by comparing the war on terrorism to the "war on pirating"? Yes, game publishers are always going to lose the fight, and DRM only drives away paying customers (or makes them act like twats and think it's okay for them to pirate a copy after buying one when it's not, because pirating a copy still ups the numbers for how many times that game was pirated and only convinces publishers that they should try harder to stop it next time). But really, did you just imply that this is comparable to stopping terrorists from trying to kill us?! Good god. I can't find the words to explain how incredibly dumb this comparison is.

http://www.gameproducer.net/images/piracyisnottheft.jpg

Incorrect image is incorrect. What do you call taking something without paying for it? Because generally, people call that stealing. Another term for stealing is theft. Piracy is taking something without paying for it, and thus piracy is stealing and any other words that mean the same thing as stealing, such as theft.

Keep coming up with those really poor justifications for not paying for your games, though!

 

[Vegosiux]

Incorrect image is incorrect. What do you call taking something without paying for it? Because generally, people call that stealing. Another term for stealing is theft. Piracy is taking something without paying for it, and thus piracy is stealing and any other words that mean the same thing as stealing, such as theft.

Actually, I wouldn't be so sure about that. I'm pretty sure around here piracy and theft are two separate felonies in our law. They're both felonies, but they're not the same. It's still wrong and illegal, but it's not stealing.

So no, piracy isn't theft. It's like apples and oranges. Both are round, can be sweet and are fruits, but that doesn't make them the same.

 

[Jack Rascal]

But in all seriousness, not having the money to pay for it is not a justification to steal it

Well, the question here was "Does every single pirated copy mean a lost sale?". The answer is, of course, "No. Some would not have bought it in the first place."

See it's hard to defend the anti piracy position when people on your own side destroy your arguments with populist nonsense.

Is piracy a bad and dishonest thing? Why yes, yes it is!

But some "arguments" against are just as ridiculous, and are not making it any easier to make people listen to reason, and are most definitely not helping with making people see why piracy is wrong.

Every pirated copy is a lost sale. If you did not want the product in the first place, you would have not pirated it. For example I could not care less about CoD, I have no intention whatsoever in buying it, so why would I pirate a copy? I do not want to play the game. This is why piracy is hurting the industry, people pirate games they wish to play. That's my argument, not directed at you

I know this is a lost battle to explain why piracy is wrong... People have strong believes. Nothing I or anyone else here says can convince them otherwise.

 

[Pandabearparade]

You know, Bethesda's got it... And Mojang too. Release great games at fair prices with wide mod support for the PC, and your name will last forever...

-This-.

I could have pirated both Minecraft and Skyrim easily, but I didn't, because I love the companies that made the games.

Hell, I wish Bethesda released more content faster. TAKE MY MONEY, BETHESDA!

 

[SenseOfTumour]

"How does antipiracy harm legitimate buyers and delay pirates?"

By offering a far worse product for sixty bucks than the pirates get for free, sometimes before the arbitrary release date chosen by the marketing people.

One suggestion I'd have is that if for example, it's discovered that Modern Warfare 4 was leaked a week early, don't leave the download locked on Steam, don't leave the piles of games out the back of the stores waiting for the magic day to come, get em out there!

Every hour you're NOT selling your game after the pirates have released it is lost sales and cancelled preorders. You can still have your magic day of promotions, just let people who want to pay for the game play it at the same time as the pirates.

Also, if the pirates can play it without an constant, blip free net connection, why should your customers not be able to?

Lastly, don't expect massive sales for a PC game, if you can't make it run smoothly on a mid range PC, when it runs fine on Xbox 260 hardware. When we've got a PC that runs better than half a dozen 360s wired together, and we can't play something like Saint's Row 2 half as well, because of a shoddy, badly done port, we do not become happy customers.

 

[Pandabearparade]

Every pirated copy is a lost sale. If you did not want the product in the first place, you would have not pirated it.

Bullshit. I'm not a pirate (unless it's something I can no longer find legally), but the idea that a pirate would have actually paid for every pirated bit of booty he has in his treasure chest is just flat out wrong. Often pirates just pirate things because the barrier of entry is free, so why not try something new? Buying Showtime to see some show called Dexter that you've heard good things about costs money, pirating it to see what all the fuss is about does not. If a pirate torrents Dexter that does not imply that if they had not they would have opted to buy Showtime to see it.

It isn't a lost sale, it's a lost potential sale. It's still wrong, morally, but it isn't theft.

 

[Jack Rascal]

Wait now, renting or borrowing it still means you get to play it without buying it, so that doesn't help your argument.

When I rent a game I get a copy of a game that has been given the rights for rental (rental companies pay for that). I have the game for a limited amount of time before I have to give it back. If I like the game, I will purchase it. If I borrow a game from my friend, I assume he wants it back. So again, I have the game for a limited amount of time. If I like the game, I purchase it. If I pirate the game, I have the copy. Why buy when I already have it?

It delays pirates, not stops them. Everything gets cracked. While in the meantime the paying customer has to deal with DRM and game validation systems, jump through hoops in order to enjoy the product they bought - while the pirates laugh on, and play their "No validation, no CD, no DRM" cracked games. And it makes me, a paying customer, feel upset because I'm being treated that way, because I have to jump through hoops, and they don't.

So game companies should just stop fighting piracy? Raise their hands and say they give up? This must be a PC gaming issue as I have not experienced any "hoop jumping"

 

[Vegosiux]

So game companies should just stop fighting piracy? Raise their hands and say they give up? This must be a PC gaming issue as I have not experienced any "hoop jumping"

I already said what I think they should do - start offering a product that is better and less inconvenient than a pirated one would have been. More carrot, less stick, as someone else mentioned.

And for Pete's sake, let us play our games offline!

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Piracy is ubiquitous because the moral justification against stealing is gone.

There is no suitable policing method against it, just heavy handed banning.

And it's not helped by the executives that relied on the moral compass to prevent it happening, and then abusing the moral compass for people to reap more benefits from double dipping.


Most people would like an original. This is prevented by:

A) Price
B) Ease
C) Availability

Piracy beats normal retail sales in all three of these areas. (although it stumbles at B sometimes)

Why do we want these things? Because we've been told we MUST have them, and we don't have to worry about A/B or C.

So, naturally, people will go with piracy...That would be the only sensible thing to do in this situation.

BUT WAIT

Most people here have most of their collections as legit. I'm sure everyone has pirated something in their life, even if it's only a copy of a TV programme on VHS or a tape of something off the radio. Still Piracy. But still not ubiquitous.

Now, if we're (as a group) mostly getting legit copies, then either there are millions out there who are pirates...or people aren't telling the truth.

That's not to point out that a lot of authors regard piracy as a gateway drug to legitimacy.

Where Piracy comes from, imho, is a moral dislike of a company. Notch/Toady etc. just said "Here's something awesome, pay when you want" - And people did.

Certain other companies said "THIS IS THE GAME YOU NEED, PAY US NOW AND LOTS" - and people pirated the hell out of it.


Piracy will always happen. Especially if it's followed up by a toothless police dog. But I think Piracy is increasing in response to demand being greater than availability.

If you NEED MW3 as soon as it's released, and you've no money, Piracy - for you - is legitimatized.

If you enjoy Minecraft and want to share it, Piracy - for you - is illegitimate.


Moral Guardians - Far more powerful than Legal Guardians. Especially when the legal guardians are bullies.

(Before World of Goo is used as a counter, that was a badly handled release - that comes under B)

 

[AngryPants]

Pirating was never as popular as it is in the past few years thanks to piracy-advertising in mass-media all over the world: television, Internet, newspapers are all discussing how bad it is to get things for free and telling where to get them (referring to pirate resources in question).

Piracy was always there, it was just never a part of main-stream culture as it is today. Previously it was an underground movement and an occupation of underdogs, now it's easily accessible and well advertised. The more they talk about it, complain about it or blame it, the worse it'll be.

Something to think about...

 

[Arcanist]

By your logic OP: if I stole more food, clothes and house hold items I'd find more stuff I'd like, and then buy more - resulting in more money to people I'm stealing from?
This is the logic you're applying here?

That's a strawman argument because you can't compare the theft of real-world materials to digital piracy for one reason - theft eliminates a good that can no longer be used by anybody else, while digital piracy makes a copy, leaving the original for others to use.

In economics, we refer to these things as 'public goods' - things people can use without being consumed, thus leaving it for others to use. You might be familiar with a few - roads, schools, police and fire departments, ect. If a foreigner comes to America and uses a road, are they 'stealing' the road from other people? Are they cheating the government if the police assist them as they're getting mugged?

Piracy hurts people.
Notice how only AAA games get shelf space at stores, now-a-days? Notice how "Twilight" movies and remakes are the only thing making consistant money these days? This is piracy: if people don't know the brand, they pirate it.
This is why we see remakes, rehashes, retreads and "safe" projects year after year. No original Sci-Fi movies? No original concept large scale video games? This is why.

Rose-colored glasses, I'm afraid. Safe, bland products have always been the main output of the entertainment industry.

And to say that indie games never make money or become big is a spit in the face to every indie developer out there. Want to know why they aren't on the shelves? Even if they feel like taking risks, it costs quite a bit of money to develop, print, distribute, and market a game - so publishers can only do it for a small number of games at any given time. So small, unproven developers will always have trouble getting their products noticed and sold in the same manner as larger developers.

This is the positive effect piracy can have on small developers. Getting your game out there and known is the best way to succeed in a field as competitive as the entertainment industry, and piracy, as we all know, is free.

Some of pirates then buy it, yes, but most don't.

I'd beg to disagree.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/WhatTheBagelManSaw.pdf

Take a look at this. People had an easy way to steal bagels. No repercussions. But their honesty - or their self interest, as they wanted bagels to continue being made - overrode their selfishness. I suspect something similar might be at play with digital piracy, that people recognize that developers and publishers need money to keep functioning, so they still buy the product despite the fact they could steal it with no harm to themselves.

 

[Jack Rascal]

Every pirated copy is a lost sale. If you did not want the product in the first place, you would have not pirated it.

Bullshit. I'm not a pirate (unless it's something I can no longer find legally), but the idea that a pirate would have actually paid for every pirated bit of booty he has in his treasure chest is just flat out wrong. Often pirates just pirate things because the barrier of entry is free, so why not try something new?

What?

Buying Showtime to see some show called Dexter that you've heard good things about costs money, pirating it to see what all the fuss is about does not. If a pirate torrents Dexter that does not imply that if they had not they would have opted to buy Showtime to see it.

It isn't a lost sale, it's a lost potential sale. It's still wrong, morally, but it isn't theft.

That is not even remotely the same thing. When have you been asked to buy all Bethesda games when you bought Skyrim? Comparing TV-shows and games isn't getting us anywhere.

 

[Jack Rascal]

Heres an idea, what if some dude wants to play the game and pirates, but wouldnt have had any money to buy a copy anyway.

Yeah, I know. Mind = blown.

I must admit, my mind is utterly blown!! Poor fellow does not have money to buy a game. A game that is not a necessity like food and clothing or a roof over your head. Poor poor thing...

But in all seriousness, not having the money to pay for it is not a justification to steal it

I think its safe to go ahead and call troll now.

I am aware of the forum rules but many people have stated multiple times that this is not about justifying piracy, its about disproving that one pirated copy = one lost sale. Whether or not pirates are assholes is not the damn topic and completely irrelevant.

Are you calling me a troll? I find that quite offending.

I have quite a few times explained how "pirated = lost sale", please read my posts.