Plaintiff's Attorney in Player-IGE Lawsuit Speaks to The Escapist

[JFLAK1 [deprecated]]

Hey all,

I don't play WoW, but I play FFXI... and anyone who plays MMORPGs as a hobby knows the RMT problem has infected all games.

And yes, it does diminish the quality of our gameplay.

1) Gilsellers will bot, hack and even have several people play on the same character (unless they've figured out how to stay awake 24/7) to monopolize valuable, in-game drops. No matter how good of a player you are, it is nearly impossible to compete with someone who is using bot programs and computer hacks. Some of these hacks allow the monster to be "claimed" by the gilseller before it even appears on your screen... and once a monster is claimed by another player, you cannot attack it. Anyway, the presence of RMT makes it much more difficult to get the gear/items they need without... you guessed it... buying it from RMT, often at inflated prices.

Which brings me to my second point...

2) The economy. Any "benefit" RMT have on the economy is artificial... RMT will flood the economy with gil, creating massive inflation that is difficult for many players to keep up with. (example... at the peak of FFXI's RMT problem, I was trying to save up for an item that cost 1 million gil... by the time I saved up $1 million, the item then cost $1.2 million... a few days later, when I saved up $1.2 million, then the item cost $1.4 million... I had to borrow gil from a friend so I could actually buy the item, because I couldn't legitimatly farm gil fast enough). On the flipside, when RMT money is removed from the economy, the results can be so staggering as to cause a gamewide economic depression, as we've recently seen happen in FFXI (that item that cost $1.4 million a year and a half ago now costs about $300,000).

Now, though, RMT have been severely hampered in FFXI, and prices are FINALLY starting to level out, and the economy is stablizing, as it should have been in the first place. But the economic impact of RMT (hyper inflation followed by dramatic economic recession) is undeniable... and, both the inflation and recession has made life extremely difficult (and not fun!) for legit players.

To answer concerns from one of the early posters in this thread, there are aspects of MMORPGs that are not affected by RMT.

For example, FFXI offers a series of complex storyline missions, which tests players skills in several challenging battles while giving gamers a rich, compelling story to follow.

However, a big part of MMORPGs is having a "job" within the game to finance your adventures. In FFXI, my character mines for ores, platinum and gold. I also craft alchemy items (potions to recover hit points and magic points, etc), and sometimes I kill monsters to sell the items they drop to other crafters.

Well, I had to stop mining because RMT characters were camped out at every single place where mining was possible... many of these RMT characters are bots, meaning they are ran by computer programs, programed to mine that mining point 24/7... not only could I not compete with them, but the RMT bots/characters flooded the market with ores, causing the prices to plummet to nearly rock-bottom.

Crafting became pretty useless too, for the same reasons. RMT characters go so far as to INTENTIONALLY flood markets and cause prices to bottom out, in an attempt to price-out legit players. The prices get so bad that players can't craft items without incurring a net loss in gil.

And, because crafting went down the toilet, so has farming. If nobody is crafting, then nobody needs to buy the materials these monsters drop.

So, I'm currently trying to save up another $1 million gil to buy an item for my character. If the game's economy had not been so badly damaged by RMT, it probably wouldn't take an unreasonable amount of time to save up that much gil. However, all I can save up now is $15k-30k per day... and at that pace, it's going to take a hell of a lot longer to save up my $1 million.... and there are many things I'd rather be doing than farming for gil.

The RMT problem affects different players in different ways, too. Some players don't enjoy the "experience grind" of MMORPGs, but they love crafting and playing the market. Some players don't necassarily get into the large-scale "endgame" activities, but they love camping the rare monsters that drop valuable items. The list goes on... and RMT clearly makes it more difficult for these players to enjoy their games.

And let's not forget: yeah, when camping one of those rare monsters, it sucks to get beaten to the claim, whether by a legit player or an RMT bot. However, there's a huge difference... the legit player is playing by the same rules you are, and the RMT bot isn't. For every time the RMT bot gets the claim, that's time you and other legit "campers" have wasted trying to claim that rare monster. I don't mind so much when I get beaten by legit players, because most of the time, legit players won't come back after getting the item they need. But RMT characters don't sleep, don't take dinner breaks, don't stop to use the restroom. They're operated by computer programs, they use illegal cheats, and they'll keep coming back over, and over, and over again.

So, yes, in conclusion, RMT definitely diminishes the fun legit players have in these games. The impact of RMT on legit players is cumulative, and undeniable.

Hope this helps explain the positions of MMORPGers!

 

[Echolocating]

Thing is, Blizzard has already backed Hernandez by way of their actions. They've been banning gold farmers for violating the ToS and patting themselves on the back for keeping the game balanced for years now.

Actually, I meant if Blizzard backs them up in court. You know, if they got a Tauren Shaman (or a relations manager) on the stand to bring even more credibility to Hernandez's claims.

I know Blizzard has banned accounts in the past, but that's more about persona than anything else. If they really wanted to ban accounts, they could cripple IGE, but they won't; they're a good customer and they support other good customers. Money is money.

However, it does look like Hernandez has a chance with the way you've explained things. Good going, I'm usually tougher to crack than that. ;-) Despite his claim for not seeking money for himself, I can see a little money for Hernandez happening. You know, for consulting costs in aiding the law firm he hired, etc.

This has got to be one of the most nerdish lawsuits ever. Move over reality; there's a new kid in town. ;-)

 

[JFLAK1 [deprecated]]

I agree, this lawsuit isn't nerdy at all. It's actually very important.

What IGE is doing is clearly wrong, and it's about time that lawyers begin searching for a way to bring this practice to an end. If the problem isn't solved now, it will grow and infect future Internet mediums.

The Internet isn't going anywhere, and neither are people who will do anything they can to profit from it... even if that means profiting off of copyrighted intelectual property, and doing so at the expense of others.

Better to find a legal precedence to stop this now, than to let it go on and get worse.

 

[Echolocating]

I don't know. The whole thing smells of pocket protectors and zit cream.

But hey, if Hernandez wins and IGE is out of the picture then we'll all sit back and watch others feverously farm gold and interrupt our enjoyment... for the right reasons. Hallelujah! ;-)

When's this thing going to trial?

 

[JFLAK1 [deprecated]]

This lawsuit affects too many people to be brushed aside as nerdy. Just in my online "guild" (or linkshell, as it's called in my game), we've had musicians, journalists, corrections officers, psychology grad students, meat-packing workers, warehouse managers, Web designers, advertisers, social workers, real-estate agents, etc. Basically, hard-working people from all walks of life, who simply want to enjoy cheap entertainment without disruptions from companies like IGE. Studies have shown the average age of MMORPG'ers to be in the mid-20s, although I know people who play in their 40s and 50s, too. I know several couples who play this game, and know of at least one couple that even got married after meeting each other through the game.

Like I said, MMORPGs (which stands for Massively Multi-Player Online Role Playing Games) are not going anywhere. And, contrary to what some may believe, they appeal to many different types of people... not just the high-school age shoppers at GameStop (in fact, that demographic is a minority). The Internet is growing and evolving at an amazing pace. What will it offer us next? And, what kind of legal protections are future consumers going to be offered?

Hopefully, this case gets the attention it deserves.

 

[Eggs [deprecated]]

It's immoral to scam people out of something that they want, but this is called bartering and it's pretty much the staple of civilization. Like it or not.

Actually, that's called 'fraud' as to distinguish it from bartering.

What's called fraud? To clarify, scamming is immoral. Trading legal tender for products or services to an informed customer who knows exactly what they want, is just that; trading.

This is a TOS, not a bloody constitution.

It is, however, a contract, and therefore legally binding.

It's Blizzard's legally binding contract. I never agreed to anything with any party other than Blizzard. This is like me suing my dentist's patient because I wasn't able to get my appointment on the day I wanted.

 

[Eggs [deprecated]]

Last thoughts:

In the lawsuit happy society we live in today, this kind of frivolous litigation just lends legitimacy to other absurd lawsuits. Once, long ago, in a land far away, lawsuits were used to settle serious disputes between parties. If someone had built a house on my property, a lawsuit would have taken care of it. But this kind of suit just brings in a whole new level of abstraction to the laws, which are themselves not intended to be nebulous.

While I understand that the internet is a new frontier for judges, I don't think this is the appropriate way to introduce the issue to the legal system. If Blizzard wants to sue them, that's just fine, they are violating a legal agreement that they had with blizzard. But this whole "they're ruining my fun" basis is just obscene. I derive half of my pleasure in this game from ruining other people's fun. I break rules regularly. Blizzard is welcome to ban me, sue me, whatever. But the mages I camp have absolutely no grounds to sue me for disrupting their gameplay.

And I know it's beeen said before, but it's worth saying again. If gold farmers aren't farming that resource node, mob spawn, whatever, then somebody else in game with an entrepreneurial spirit will be doing so. Face it, someone in the world is always going to be a greater catass than you. Get over it.

 

[JFLAK1 [deprecated]]

Yes, I could see how people would call this frivolous.

On the same note, though, it's also incredibly stupid that a company like IGE is able to blatantly break the rules of a service which millions of people pay for, without any possibility for recourse. That, to me, is more absurd than the frivoloty of the lawsuit (which I personally don't believe is frivolous... as I've stated, it could actually set a very meaningful precedent for other online services).

Cheaters like the guy who posted above me will always exist in any game. In FFXI, steps are being taken to aggresivly remove cheaters from the game... so really, I don't give a crap whether normal players choose to cheat. If they want to keep paying for new software and content IDs every time they get banned, well, it's their money! But RMT companies operate differently. They have big budget and seemingly endless resources. You can't simply ban the cheaters and expect RMT to stay away. There must be a threat of legal recourse.

 

[Mikourei [deprecated]]

For those who are wondering about the impact that IGE is *really* having on the majority of online gamers, please read this. I hope to give a better example to you than can be found in WoW.

From what I've seen from my roommate playing WoW is that goldfarming plays the part of a minor annoyance. The only times I've ever heard him complain about it is when he gets repeated tells (private messages) from goldfarmers/sellers directing him to a website that markets gold.

Personally, I play Final Fantasy 11 (FFXI) and have had an active character for over 3 years now. I've watched the enterance of gilfarmers (aka goldfarmers, RMT, gilsellers...I will use the term RMT from here on out for "real money trade/traders") and have seen the volitility of the in-game economy due directly to RMT activities.

The impact on each person's experience in-game from RMT is much more direct than on WoW.

For a very long time, RMT have almost entirely monopolized an endgame area, only allowing players to experience this part of the game either by A) purchasing items used to spawn important monsters from RMT at severly inflated prices or B) use RMT services to spawn the important monsters in order to get the items and gear that the player wants, which costs quite a bit of in-game money (gil).

Farming (killing monsters for saleable items) has been monopolized by RMT at times, forcing legitimate players to compete with RMT players who often use unfair practices (i.e. using programs to unnaturally move or warp directly to the monster, programs that will automatically 'claim' a monster [once a monster is claimed, it is normal for only the claiming player and anyone in his group to make any action against a monster], etc). Farming is where many players, especially players who are not at the max level of 75, gain the largest chunk of in-game income.

Farming, as stated above, includes the monopolization of Notorious Monsters (NMs) that drop rare and expensive items/equipment, and spawn rarely depending on the difficulty/type of monster. NM spawns times can normally range anywhere from 15 minutes to 72 hours, and nearly every NM that drops an item or items that are worth large amounts of gil are regularly camped and monopolized by RMT, forcing legitimate players again to buy the item from RMT at inflated prices.

Crafting (taking items and, through an in-game process, creating a new item/items) was also a large income for many legitimate players and has also been detrimentally affected by RMT activity. Either severely raising prices on ingredients, or severely lowering the price on any item that isn't a high-quality result, causing many people who've chosen this path for income to lose gil instead of gain it.

As a result of this control over the economy and the average player's income, there is heavy pressure on the casual player to buy gil from companies like IGE because it becomes increasingly harder for players to legitimately acquire gil.

Square-Enix (SE), the company that produces FFXI, has taken many steps toward removing RMT activity from the game. Mass-bannings from using cheats in-game, monopolilzation and 'holding' (claiming a monster without making any attempt to damage it), having known affilliations to RMT activities, etc, are all now under heavy scrutiny by SE.

The problem here lies in the fact that SE can only do so much in keeping RMT out of the game. Credit card numbers and IP addresses used to register accounts are checked for previous registrations on banned accounts, but those that are causing the largest problem in FFXI are using dynamic IPs and rechargable credit cards (can't think of the actual term for this, but they act like rechargable gift cards). SE can do nothing about these RMT that get banned, change IPs, get a new card, and create a new character, and these RMT are the ones that are hurting SE's playerbase.

From what I understand, and from what has been addressed, is that the actual RMT in-game and IGE as a corporation have no 'direct' affiliation. IGE purchases the farmed gil or gold from a 'farm' and then sells it at inflated prices. The analogy of the drug dealer is an apt one in this case. IGE, in this case, is only in violation of one area of the ToS; unauthorized sale of copyrighted intellectual material, which in some cases may be as much of a crime as selling illegally downloaded .mp3s and other cases of piracy. This last statement is my personal belief and I have absolutely *no* prior knowlege of copyright law, so please take it as you will.

 

[jiggywithmrbiggy [deprecated]]

This law suit if successful will just create a void for the next big RMT company to take up IGE's market share. The difference will be that they will be smarter and more savvy to base themselves outside the scope and reach of the US legal system. I think the greater issue here is that Blizzard do not want to eliminate gold farmers or RMT companies such as IGE.

Blizzard has the money/resources to take legal actions themselves for the contravention of their TOS/EULA. They own the game and all the intellectual property so they should be launching their own law suit. Ok so they don't sue but if they were so concerned about the unethical nature of RMT and the degredation of enjoyment for their "genuine" subscribers, then they have access to all the necessary information to ban accounts when they want without recourse. If they decided to they could wipe out RMT within days but do they want to?

Of course not!! To Blizzard, RMT = money for them. Imagine how many accounts are created daily by farmers - money in Blizzard's pockets. They know the farmers won't give up and will continue purchasing cd keys and subscriptions which naturally means more money for Blizzard. Also, how many subscribers would leave the game if they had to grind for that gold? Hundreds? Thousands? Well definitely there will be a huge drop in new subscribers without the farmers.

So think about it..... Blizzard are owned by Vivendi Universal - a huge multinational conglomerate who are accountable to share-holders. How are they going to explain the loss of revenue and reduction in subscribers to their Executve Board and Shareholders? Blizzard publicly will be stating their "we care about game-play, ethics etc" but secretly cheering for IGE as the management know their bonus and share options depend on RMT supporting WOW. Imagine when in years to come gamers have stopped playing WOW, Blizzard will be turning around to RMT companies and say "Please sell gold in our game".

 

[jiggywithmrbiggy [deprecated]]

Cheeze_Pavilion - I take your point and it is valid. However, using that principle about severing the funding/revenue for these RMTs, why hasn't Blizzard complained to Paypal? They have managed to remove the majority of WOW gold auctions/sellers from Ebay. Doesn't Ebay own Paypal? Why would Paypal still accept business from IGE if Ebay wont allow gold sellers at all for copyright infringement?

 

[Eleazaros]

The part that makes me snicker about reading all this... A good chunk of folks seem to be saying "it's good, not bad", etc... Meaningless.

The lawsuit is based upon the EULA -- is IGE violating it? Well, looking at it, anyone that buys or sells in-game items for real world money is violating it. The lawsuit is to make them follow the rules vs profiting by breaking them so all the "economy" stuff is pretty wasted beyond it's messing with some people and the "foundation" for any financial setelments.

They are breaking the rules laid out for everyone to follow in this game and are making money by breaking rules that EVERYONE is suposed to follow. That means this guy does have grounds for this lawsuit and might actually win. Comming in from this standpoint vs "Intelectual property" or the like and it gets real fuzzy. Comming in from a "game with rules, I follow them, you break them. YOu make money breaking them. Pay up and/or get out."

There are rules. The rules are expected to be followed and there sits IGE, breaking those rules, to make money BY breaking them... Yup, I'd say it should prove rather interesting to see how this suit goes.

 

[Archon]

I agree, Eleazaros. The approach the plaintiffs' attorney is taking seems like it could be very effective. They're avoiding all the traps and pitholes of trying to define whether it's property or not. The analogy to pooping in the well made earlier in the thread was also excellent.

IGE seems like it will have to argue that the EULA is not enforceable or not intended to benefit the players.

 

[CaelanPaige [deprecated]]

Eleazaros,
You are correct in your assertion that the EULA are the rules, but concerning those rules, it is necessary to point out that the parties who may enforce those rules are limited. If you employ a painter to paint your house, and he paints half of it and refuses to continue, I cannot sue him to enforce the contract between you and the painter. This is true even if I am your next door neighbor, and your half painted house is irritating me. If you have decided that you do not wish to enforce your contract against the Painter, I have no recourse in the courts.

Mr. Hernandez is going forward under a theory of intended third party beneficiary, but he will fail because Blizzard clearly did not intend to form a contract that would create causes of action against every customer who breaks the EULA. The clause in the contract that gold-farmers breach is intended to protect the property of Blizzard; it is not intended to protect the virtual property of the customers. Blizzard would be quick to assert that they indeed own all of the virtual property held by players, so an interpretation of that clause that protects the players' interest in that virtual property would be absurd on its face.

Furthermore, Mr. Hernandez's filing also has issues concerning his constitutional standing. He must assert an injury in fact, which is an invasion of a legally protected interest which concrete and particularized, actual or imminent, and not conjectural or hypothetical. He has no legally protected interest here because he is not a party or an intended third party beneficiary to the EULA. His actual, concrete, and particularized injury is even more dubious, considering that he's claiming to have lost the value of his subscription fees, but also indicates that he spends many hours playing the game. I think a judge would find it hard to believe that a person who spends many hours playing a game every month would not realize 15 dollars in entertainment value during that period. The environmental effects on the game that other posters have commented on would fail the hypothetical or conjectural limitation.

What it boils down to is, only Blizzard is capable of bringing this suit, and they're not wasting their time and money on this nonsense.

 

[den010 [deprecated]]

This attorney is an a-hole.

This has nothing to do with him or his "client." If there really is a "client."

If this was a big issue with Vivendi Games, they would take legal action themselves.

This attorney needs to stop looking at non existent dollar signs and go back to ambulance chasing