Plaintiff's Attorney in Player-IGE Lawsuit Speaks to The Escapist

[Archon]

Cheeze, are you aware of the litigation against Linden Labs? The judge in that case recently dismissed a motion by Linden Labs that would have ended the suit; the judge ruled that certain clauses of Linden's EULA were not enforceable against the plaintiff because they were "unconscionable".

I think this speaks to your point that "the contract isn't the EULA". But it also suggests that courts may not necessarily view IGE as breaching the contract, either. The courts may find Hernandez has rights as a 3rd part beneficiary under the contract. The courts may also find that IGE hasn't violated a contract with Blizzard, even if it has violated the EULA.

This should be good.

 

[eds2004 [deprecated]]

Joe edit: Yeah, no.

 

[Echolocating]

Blizzard recently filed a lawsuit against a group called Peons4hire. With some of the commentary I've read on other sites, Blizzard is specifically not suing Peons4hire for farming gold for profit; rather their spamming practices. Perhaps I'm misinformed, but the idea that Blizzard isn't suing for the selling of virtual property (a clear breach of their EULA) raises a lot of questions. Anybody know more about Blizzard's lawsuit against Peons4hire and how it possibly relates to this one?

 

[Kesash]

Blizzard is suing Peons4Hire, a Gold Farmer/Powerleveling site, because of their continual private message spamming of players in this game. Up until this last patch, they would literally bombard online users with private messages advertising their gold selling and power leveling. Peons4hire is one of the reasons why Blizzard has the new Spam reporting tools built into their interface. Now the only way someone on a trial account can contact someone with a regular account is through raid chat, party chat, guild chat, /s ("say" which only works within the immediate area of the character), or in General Chat for an area. Private messages from these trial accounts are only allowed if that trial account character is on your "Friends" list or in your guild.

The latest trick of desperation that they are trying to use, but folks are already wise to, is to invite you to a raid and when you join the raid, they spam you in raid chat. Just don't accept raid invites from gibberish names or folks you don't know or if you haven't requested to be invited to a raid.

The new Spam reporting works like this: Clicking on "Report Spam" not only blocks that character from contacting you again, it blocks all other characters associated with that account, and I have heard, all accounts associated with the credit card used to pay for that account, from contacting you for the remainder of your gaming session (until you log out). The permanent *pay* accounts that the farmers had/have access to are being weeded out and banned as they use them for private message spamming.

In a nutshell from a nutcase }8þ: This case is based on the complaints from WoW players that "Peons4hire" have harassed, via continual, repeated unwanted and unsolicited messaging, a large percentage of players in World of Warcraft, and that a large percentage of players have reported "Peons4hire" repeatedly. Said harassment is a violation of the terms spelled out in the EULA and TOS for WoW.

So what it boils down to is Blizzard/VU actually suing P4H to cease and desist their in-game activities of PM spamming and advertising, not anything concerning any virtual property.

Kind of funny that P4H is hosted by TSR Solutions, similar in name to the one the old "Dungeons and Dragons" folks" used to have before WotC bought them out.

 

[jhrisk [deprecated]]

I've been playing WoW since December of 2005 and I'm sorry but outside the spamming (which is a separate issue and much better after the last patch) I simply do not see how gold-farmers inhibit gameplay, fun or anything in this game. This case is a waste of valuable REAL LIFE resources.

From the complaint I quote "IGE gold farming activities not only substantially diminish the enjoyment and satisfaction consumers obtain by earning, through the expenditure of vast amounts of time and energy, virtual assets within World of Warcraft..." Are you kidding me? Some entity's actions made this GAME less FUN because it made it EASIER for someone to skip spending TONS OF REAL TIME to attain a VIRTUAL item/lvl/rep/etc. through the use of REAL LIFE money? That's ludicrous. In short, you're suing because someone cheated in a GAME and it made it less FUN for you. Do you have any clue the precedent that would set if you won (which you have no shot IMHO)? Ezines and just about any paid resource that offers cheat codes, walkthroughs or provides any advantage to their gamer-subscribers for any game you have to purchase could be sued. Unless the owners of the game actually state in their ToS that cheating is acceptable, of course.

Here's the deal and I'll carry on with his analogy. If your seat is getting kicked in the theatre talk to the person doing it. If they don't change then speak to the theatre. If that doesn't remedy the situation then GO TO ANOTHER THEATRE!

 

[Kesash]

I've been playing WoW since December of 2005 and I'm sorry but outside the spamming (which is a separate issue and much better after the last patch) I simply do not see how gold-farmers inhibit gameplay, fun or anything in this game. This case is a waste of valuable REAL LIFE resources.

From the complaint I quote "IGE gold farming activities not only substantially diminish the enjoyment and satisfaction consumers obtain by earning, through the expenditure of vast amounts of time and energy, virtual assets within World of Warcraft..." Are you kidding me? Some entity's actions made this GAME less FUN because it made it EASIER for someone to skip spending TONS OF REAL TIME to attain a VIRTUAL item/lvl/rep/etc. through the use of REAL LIFE money? That's ludicrous. In short, you're suing because someone cheated in a GAME and it made it less FUN for you. Do you have any clue the precedent that would set if you won (which you have no shot IMHO)? Ezines and just about any paid resource that offers cheat codes, walkthroughs or provides any advantage to their gamer-subscribers for any game you have to purchase could be sued. Unless the owners of the game actually state in their ToS that cheating is acceptable, of course.

Here's the deal and I'll carry on with his analogy. If your seat is getting kicked in the theatre talk to the person doing it. If they don't change then speak to the theatre. If that doesn't remedy the situation then GO TO ANOTHER THEATRE!

It's the PROCESS of the Gold Farmers GETTING the gold (and items) that they sell that's causing the problems, not the actual end result of some kiddie stripping Mommy's credit card to buy his uber tinkertoy of doomage. As I described earlier in the thread, there are/were certain areas in WoW where you dreaded going because the Farmers literally owned the areas (Azshara and Felwood to name two). Pre-Burning Crusade, every server (six, so far!) that I played on, when you hit your mid 40 and 50 levels, you more or less had to quest through those areas and you would be harassed by the farmbois in those areas until you left (which inhibits your gaming experience and fun!). Harassing is against the TOS and EULA.

Granted, everyone in the game will grind for money in WoW at one time or another (unless Mommy has a high credit limit), especially for epic mounts. If the farmers wouldn't have called attention to themselves with their methods, quite possibly we wouldn't be having this thread. They made a nuisance out of themselves and got greedy and behaved like thugs, thieves, and hooligans. So now they are in court.

It's not just the fact that they are kicking your chair, it's also how hard and often that they kick it and that they followed you to the next theater.

 

[Joe]

Harassing is against the TOS and EULA.

Granted, everyone in the game will grind for money in WoW at one time or another (unless Mommy has a high credit limit), especially for epic mounts. If the farmers wouldn't have called attention to themselves with their methods, quite possibly we wouldn't be having this thread. They made a nuisance out of themselves and got greedy and behaved like thugs, thieves, and hooligans. So now they are in court.

It's not just the fact that they are kicking your chair, it's also how hard and often that they kick it and that they followed you to the next theater.

This does sound a lot like my real-life friends when they played EQ. They'd run into a zone and clear it out using ultra-efficient methods, steal people's spawns, berate others until they left, and tried to kill them. Despite multiple warnings, they never stopped. Can I sue them, too? Or is it only people who provide a service to others?

 

[Joe]

If you did sue them, I don't see why your friends would care about having a court issue an injunction against them preventing them from taking that gold they grind for and selling it in real life for real money.

If anything, that accentuates the disconnect here. You're jerks who get in people's way, so you can't do what you want with the stuff you have on your character.

 

[Joe]

The mental disconnect between suing people for being jerks and shutting off their ability to exchange goods and services on the internet.

 

[Kesash]

Harassing is against the TOS and EULA.

Granted, everyone in the game will grind for money in WoW at one time or another (unless Mommy has a high credit limit), especially for epic mounts. If the farmers wouldn't have called attention to themselves with their methods, quite possibly we wouldn't be having this thread. They made a nuisance out of themselves and got greedy and behaved like thugs, thieves, and hooligans. So now they are in court.

It's not just the fact that they are kicking your chair, it's also how hard and often that they kick it and that they followed you to the next theater.

This does sound a lot like my real-life friends when they played EQ. They'd run into a zone and clear it out using ultra-efficient methods, steal people's spawns, berate others until they left, and tried to kill them. Despite multiple warnings, they never stopped. Can I sue them, too? Or is it only people who provide a service to others?

Oh you could... But I think it would be *MUCH* more fun to educate them to the error of their ways with a loaded foam clue bat... Hickory works too. But with friends like those, who needs enemys? But then, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Kesash]

The mental disconnect between suing people for being jerks and shutting off their ability to exchange goods and services on the internet.

It's more of a "organized jerking for profit" thing when it comes to IGE... }8þ I'm surprised they didn't try virtual prostitution for money... I wouldn't put it past that bunch.

 

[Joe]

The mental disconnect between suing people for being jerks and shutting off their ability to exchange goods and services on the internet.

Hernandez isn't suing them for being jerks; I may have missed something in the complaint, but check section #27: the people actually playing the game and being jerks are not a part of this suit.

It still doesn't change the fact the whole basis of the lawsuit is about people being jerks and getting in the way of other people's enjoyment. Pointing out a specific portion of jerks, if anything, makes the suit even sillier to me.

 

[jhrisk [deprecated]]

Correction... 2004 since I started when it first came out... my God has it been that long

It's the PROCESS of the Gold Farmers GETTING the gold (and items) that they sell that's causing the problems, not the actual end result of some kiddie stripping Mommy's credit card to buy his uber tinkertoy of doomage. As I described earlier in the thread, there are/were certain areas in WoW where you dreaded going because the Farmers literally owned the areas (Azshara and Felwood to name two). Pre-Burning Crusade, every server (six, so far!) that I played on, when you hit your mid 40 and 50 levels, you more or less had to quest through those areas and you would be harassed by the farmbois in those areas until you left (which inhibits your gaming experience and fun!). Harassing is against the TOS and EULA.

I'm sorry to hear you've experienced this and indeed I have as well... on a daily basis in fact. Two accounts filled with toons, multiple 70s and several servers of personal experience confirms this. However, there are three important points I'd like to make:

1. To echo my original post and Cheeze_Pavilion, the complaint focuses on fair trade and specifically states that "IGE gold farming activities not only substantially diminish the enjoyment and satisfaction consumers obtain by earning, through the expenditure of vast amounts of time and energy, virtual assets within World of Warcraft, they also violate terms of agreements Subscribers enter into to participate in World of Warcraft." Their methods, as despicable as they may be, are not relevant to this case as it's "from a consumer protection standpoint." They're complaining gold farmers take away from the arbitray level of fun/reward/fulfillment/whatever you're supposed to get from your $15/month through their breach of the ToS in selling virtual items for real money. Just re-typing that makes me ill as it's absolutely silly. This isn't a right/wrong matter IMHO since sure it's wrong. This is a merit and damages issue and IMHO does not deserve our court's time. Besides, it's like me suing counterfeit D&G manufacturers because it diminshes the value of my real D&G shades.... WTF? LOL

2. How do you distinguish between the greedy jerks that tag your mob, steal your herb/vein, etc. for their OWN greed versus those that do it to resell for real money? Given that this behavior is rampant, exhibited by the vast majority of people I run into and gold farmers do not have unique identifiers unless some jerk does this to you, you buy gold and then he's the one that mails/trades it to you one cannot know for sure. I'm fairly certain that's why they didn't take that route with respect to which ToS was broken to cause damages to the plaintiff. Besides it being difficult to identify defendants, stealing someone's kills, herb or anything even if done repeatedly does not warrant major disciplinary action from Blizzard. In case you've never been in that process from either end (complaining or defending) it takes a lot to get them to do anything beyond a verbal warning and in bad cases perhaps a 24 hour suspension. Being greedy, not playing nice with others, taking their kills and other distasteful behavior alone is not harrasment as per GMs. I'm not even aware of there being a precedent for virtual behavior being grounds for real life damages. I mean, couldn't one then sue for libel, slander, sexual harrasment and a number of other virtual actions? He sexually harrased me preventing me from leveling at my normal rate and thus "diminishing my fun" through his "breach of ToS" Given my hourly real life rate and computing the lost leveling hours I'm seeking $200,000 LMAO! Let's not go there since I don't think anyone has... yet.

3. The 40 to 50 grind is arguably the hardest. It's the last 10 levels most tend to grind in the general populous since normally at 50 you start hitting instances hard. It's much better now but there's always been quest (or lacktherof) issues including the distances between viable 40-50 areas. Since 40 to 50 takes longer than any other set of 10 levels it would seem reasonable to assume there are more 40-50s out in the general populous at any time than any other grouping of 10 levels below this mark.

In short, people shouldn't patronize/participate things they don't like. In the case of a game it's a no-brainer as there's not possible way you NEED to play that particular game. No one's forcing him to play WoW and get "screwed" just as much as no one's forcing those poor folks at Eve Online to stay in a virtual world filled with corruption. Which reminds me, isn't it funny how even after all the cheating, lieing and covering up that developer did to absolutely ruin the game for almost everyone involved not one lawsuit came out of it? Hmmm... or did one and I never saw it?