Pointing out double standards does NOT make you sexist!

[Subscriptism]

Don't let it trouble you. Just point it out for what it is; a false accusation made in order to scare you away from criticizing a feminist agenda designed to help women and hurt men.

Well that didn't take long.

I know this may be a futile request but can you please not go around pretending that all feminists are man hating bull dykes who scream "Die cis scum!"?

Captcha: Agree to disagree
HA!

 

[Vegosiux]

To be honest, I'll hold my hand up to this.
It's very easy to get frustrated here.
Pretty sure I've explained myself time and time again and still get lumped in as a man-hater.
I feel when I make a point it gets largely ignored in order to whine about some invisible feminazis.
I just think the perception here about feminists isn't going to change no matter what. People are just pretty determined to hate us. It's kind of funny really, in a sad way.

Trust me, it's the same on the other side (just swap femnazis and white knights for MRA nutcases and NiceGuys), it's hard to keep a level-headed discussion on this topic no matter where you stand on it. But, my general impression is that it actually did get a bit better with time, but that might simply be because I distanced myself a little.

However, the perception of feminists is something the feminists can change, and a level discussion is imperative for that. Ridicule and smugness are just widening the gap even more.

That, or maybe we should just bite each other's heads off and set it up so that the last remaining head gets bitten off by Cthulhu.

Though thanks for pointing out the fact that the people who often characterise feminists as man haters are usually the same people who would scream against anyone stereotyping gamers. That's also pretty funny.

It was funny for a time. Then it made me sad. It's as you said - it's...difficult. As cynical as I usually am, I still don't seriously believe that most Escapists have malicious intents, but then everyone gets told how they're "part of the problem" and they go on the defensive, "What!? What'd I do?" and it only gets worse from there, blah. This, again, is applicable to both sides and even the "on the fence" people because they're a percieved "part of the problem" by both sides...

Also, obligatory Spidermod appreciation comment here. Moderating these threads cannot be fun.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

However, the perception of feminists is something the feminists can change, and a level discussion is imperative for that. Ridicule and smugness are just widening the gap even more.

Yes and no. It's sort of like saying that racists would let go of their absurd presumptions if only minorities worked harder to give a good impression.

It is our job to make assessments of individuals as individuals, and assess arguments based on the merits of those arguments.

 

[Vegosiux]

Yes and no. It's sort of like saying that racists would let go of their absurd presumptions if only minorities worked harder to give a good impression.

It is our job to make assessments of individuals as individuals, and assess arguments based on the merits of those arguments.

Myeah I meant more like if you are being confrontational when you enter a discussion, you shouldn't be surprised if a confrontation is what you get.

And it goes both ways, it's also a bit like saying the minorities will stop playing the "victim card" if the majority stops constantly shoving it into their hand on every deal.

Just a fancy way of using my usual life's motto - "Communication is key." Ah, but I'm being a naive idealist with that one, aren't I?

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Myeah I meant more like if you are being confrontational when you enter a discussion, you shouldn't be surprised if a confrontation is what you get.

Sure, that's fair. I can accept this. I'll have my people contact your people.

Just a fancy way of using my usual life's motto - "Communication is key." Ah, but I'm being a naive idealist with that one, aren't I?

I think people seek consensus more often than communication. And when I say "consensus" I mean they seek that you concede they are correct.

 

[ninjaRiv]

You want stats? Here, have some bloody stats [http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2011-2012/DVAustralia#_Toc309798375].

Wait? What?

I don't think you quite realize how 'unreported' works. There are no statistics on unreported crimes, that's what makes them unreported. If there were statistics on them they wouldn't be unreported.

Asking for stats on unreported crimes is like asking for receipts from unsold products...

I don't think you, like the other guy, quite realize that "unreported" is not a magic word that makes any statistic go away.

"Here's some stats showing that the majority of domestic violence in Australia is male-on-female."
"UNREPORTED. I am correct. My argument is irrefutable."

Also, it's underreported, not unreported. Important distinction.

I've been reading this argument because, you know, arguments are fun. What I've read is nobody's said there's LESS male on female violence. If anything, they've said there's more than is reported. What people are arguing is that there's a lot more cases of female on male violence than anyone knows simply because it's a fact that society is less likely to treat it seriously. Men are brought up to believe they're invincible and that men deal with their own shit, help is for the weak. They ARE the help. Plus there are plenty of men who get laughed at when they come forward. There was a case a while ago where a male celebrity in the UK came forward and talked about his ordeal with his wife. She's hit him in the head enough to cause massive amounts of bleeding and had put out cigarettes on him multiple times. Among other things. He was the butt of MANY jokes for the following weeks.

I think if I were the victim of domestic abuse, I'd keep my mouth shut and do nothing. I like to think I'd take a stand but, as it is, I don't know if I would. So nobody's saying you're wrong about anything except the Vaaaaaast part. Yeah, the cases of male on female violence probably is a lot higher than the other. But the other is a lot higher than a lot of people seem to think.

OT: Double standards are everywhere. The human race NEEDS them, it seems...

 

[Cheeseman Muncher]

I do too, but I think it's a smaller issue at hand. General anti-domestic violence programs with a massive focus on protecting women should be the goal of programs with limited funds. You might slow some of the violence against the 160,000 while trying to stop the violence against the 1.1 million. But granting them comparable weight is just dumb. And quite frankly, yeah, asserting that they are equal problems is sexist. For the simple reason that you are implying that the pain of 1.1 million women is equivalent to the pain of only 160,000 men. i.e. that it's more important to protect less men than more women.

I intensely dislike the word "only" being used in arguments like this. While I agree with you that the problems aren't equal in size, it doesn't mean that those in one group as a result deserve less support than the other. Even if it's "only" 160,000 men, that makes the total number of human beings suffering domestic violence in that country almost 1.3 million. While one group are more likely to be killed by their abusers, it shouldn't be used as an excuse to trivialise the experiences of the others. Everyone in that situation needs help.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Not much to say, other than I agree with the OP in entirely. The female on male rape stuff is actually very indicative of modern mindsets. There was a thread on here not too long ago(>month) in response to a rape case in china.

A non-trivial number of replies were outright disgusting. "He got an erection; therefore it's not rape", "He wasn't fighting back hard enough for it to REALLY be rape" and other similar comments in the same vain. The same kind of bullshit people pulled against women who were raped not so long ago, and which we now rightly recognise as BS, yet they are happy to repeat history if the victim is a man(likely without realising the comparison to rape deniers of the past). It indicates a lack of education regarding general abuse(as opposed to female specific abuse; or hate crimes) and a complacency in accepting media interpretations of men who are always stronger than women and never cry or struggle with problems.

This is a problem, a big problem; and it should be given a lot more attention than it gets. Sadly some attitudes towards "violence against women" can actually reinforce(not intentionally) some of the problems the OP has brought up(without even getting into the crazy, man hating, privilege trading, branch of feminism who attempt to paint white people and males as being unabusable; but that's another thread).

Ok turns out I did have a bit to say.

There wasn't a single self proclaimed feminist in that thread who didn't acknowledge that it was rape, and agree that laughing about it was disgusting. I don't know what branch of feminism you're talking about but they certainly don't exist here.

The people who were trivialising the issue and making out to be a big joke were the same people who question a woman's clothing and sexual history in female rape threads. Everyone gets accused of not fighting back hard enough. You seem to have this ridiculous notion that victim blaming and dismissing female rape victims is a thing of the past. That's the problem I have with people who point out these "double standards". You act like everything is peaches for women and that only men face ridicule and insult, when in reality they are both attacked for not preventing their own rapes. Women for not being pure and modest enough, men for not being strong enough to deter their rapists.

The problem is sheltered individuals who have no understanding of the realities of rape, and dismiss the pain it causes to both sexes. It has nothing to do with evil feminazis trying to push the idea that men can't get raped, or only focussing on female rape, it's a problem with society's attitude towards rape as a whole. Just last year an American politician said that if a woman falls pregnant as a result of rape, it wasn't "legitimate rape". I think it's ridiculous to paint these things as a double standard when they're not. All it does is create an "us-vs-them" mentality. There are serious issues with the way rape is perceived, and where the blame is placed, for both genders.

 

[tkioz]

Also, it's these double standards that feminists are trying to quell. Except they're putting priority to the countless double standards of women before the very few of the men. Because it's not men who have to catch up to women in equality.

So we can only work on one issue at a time?

The people who were trivialising the issue and making out to be a big joke were the same people who question a woman's clothing and sexual history in female rape threads. Everyone gets accused of not fighting back hard enough. You seem to have this ridiculous notion that victim blaming and dismissing female rape victims is a thing of the past.

You've got a good point there, but think about police and prosecution services and how they react to the situation. I've read news articles where the responding police officer is the one making the jokes...

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Its the same thing as having a different political view than certain people gets you labeled racist. Its a baseless accusation using a hotbutton word intended to shame you into silence.

 

[Reincarnatedwolfgod]

I skimmed through the OP's post and did not find anything disagreeable

What a pretty bunny.

since I have nothing more to contribute when it come to talking about the topic of sexism; I found picture of a bunny to add to this thread

I think I should make a animal picture thread

 

[Timmey]

The only thing I'm willing to add to this thread is that the anti-domestic violence campaigns focus on male-on-female violence because that accounts for the vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of it.

Actually it only counts for the vast majority of reported, recorded domestic abuse there is a pretty big freaking difference. Domestic violence is massively unreported crime as is, add in gender issues and you've got very skewed and useless statistics.

No, it's the vast majority of all domestic violence.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a joke, a liar or severely lacking in understanding of how the world works.

Okay so you've got a magic crystal ball that tells you accurate statistics on crimes that are known to be under-reported. Good to know.

And you have one that tells you otherwise?

You want stats? Here, have some bloody stats [http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2011-2012/DVAustralia#_Toc309798375]. (Here's the same ones [http://www.domesticviolence.com.au/pages/domestic-violence-statistics.php] in a much shorter and easier to read version.)

Well, whaddaya know? Mostly male-of-female by some fucking huge margins. What a surprise! It's almost as if it's common sense that stronger people are more likely to beat up weaker people than the other way around.

Find me one statistic that says otherwise. One. Fucking one.

This is why I find "male rights advocates", or "double standard pointer-outers" or whatever you want to be called, to be such a silly joke. So desperate to find a double standard to point out that you have to start making them up.

Lastly, yes, I'm aware of gay and lesbian couples. Thing is, they're a tiny minority. Less than one percent in Australia [http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Lookup/2071.0main+features852012-2013]. Not large enough to have any significant impact on the numbers.

This article seems to go against what you say and suggest that domestic abuse against men is a very real problem.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

''Data from Home Office statistical bulletins and the British Crime Survey show that men made up about 40% of domestic violence victims each year between 2004-05 and 2008-09, the last year for which figures are available. In 2006-07 men made up 43.4% of all those who had suffered partner abuse in the previous year, which rose to 45.5% in 2007-08 but fell to 37.7% in 2008-09.

Similar or slightly larger numbers of men were subjected to severe force in an incident with their partner, according to the same documents. The figure stood at 48.6% in 2006-07, 48.3% the next year and 37.5% in 2008-09, Home Office statistics show.''

 

[KOMega]

If someone hit's someone there is a negative consequence to hitting someone.
There is no negative consequence to being a male or female.

Combining these two I believe male or female, you hold responsibility for hitting someone.

The opposite is true where male or female, you should treat the other person as (unless necessary for professional reasons ), not a male, not a female, but a person.
gender really should just be like any other characteristic: red hair, black hair, blue eyes, brown eyes, tall, short, male, female (again, except for professional/medical reasons).

Can't we all just eat some dandylions and be happy little bunnies. Those guys don't have to worry about things like these. Only bloodthirsty birds of prey.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, we need to worry about bloodthirsty birds of prey... wait, what were we talking about?

 

[Haakmed]

Women want equal pay for equal work. Fine I will agree to that. Women want the same chances as a man? Awesome I will support that as well! However if there is some reason you can't do something I am supposed to do in the same job because of gender differences then we have a problem. I will start treating people the same when the expectations are the same. simple as that.

 

[Bluestorm83]

The only thing I'm willing to add to this thread is that the anti-domestic violence campaigns focus on male-on-female violence because that accounts for the vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of it.

Actually it only counts for the vast majority of reported, recorded domestic abuse there is a pretty big freaking difference. Domestic violence is massively unreported crime as is, add in gender issues and you've got very skewed and useless statistics.

No, it's the vast majority of all domestic violence.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a joke, a liar or severely lacking in understanding of how the world works.

Okay so you've got a magic crystal ball that tells you accurate statistics on crimes that are known to be under-reported. Good to know.

And you have one that tells you otherwise?

You want stats? Here, have some bloody stats [http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2011-2012/DVAustralia#_Toc309798375]. (Here's the same ones [http://www.domesticviolence.com.au/pages/domestic-violence-statistics.php] in a much shorter and easier to read version.)

Well, whaddaya know? Mostly male-of-female by some fucking huge margins. What a surprise! It's almost as if it's common sense that stronger people are more likely to beat up weaker people than the other way around.

Find me one statistic that says otherwise. One. Fucking one.

This is why I find "male rights advocates", or "double standard pointer-outers" or whatever you want to be called, to be such a silly joke. So desperate to find a double standard to point out that you have to start making them up.

Lastly, yes, I'm aware of gay and lesbian couples. Thing is, they're a tiny minority. Less than one percent in Australia [http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Lookup/2071.0main+features852012-2013]. Not large enough to have any significant impact on the numbers.

He said "The statistics are inaccurate because Men are incredibly unlikely to report being beaten and/or raped by a woman due to male psyche" and you said "But these are the statistics!" Tell me, does Brawndo have what plants crave?

 

[Shifty]

This may not be interesting but please read on in case you empathise.

I am a 30 year old man, that has had a good life. I am out going, generally liked and don't have social issues. I am fit and am slightly above average looking (by others honest opinions) . Not gorgeous by any means. I am not arrogant, what I typed there was generally the truth not a boast just to give the background.

When I was twenty six I was involved in an abusive relationship. It started easy with a slap across the face when drunk. And it progressed from there over time. I told the lady that you should never do that (my child hood had seen domestic violence) it progressed from there. Over a few years it got worse. I could describe how it went but imagine being powerless against someone you dont want to hurt that hurts you.

I would never hit a woman.. ever but it took all my control not to by the end. I had my nose broken by a person that was more than half my weight and I could do nothing. When I walked out I felt horrible but I knew it had to be done.

The girl in question is still the love of my life that I could never go back to. I could not nor ever will. But that is not the point of this thread.

When I see a woman hitting a man onscreen and its considered alright I cringe just slightly. It is never acceptable to hit someone you love because if you do then its not love. Why would you do that.

If man kisses a woman with out provocation he gets slapped, if a woman does it... its a misunderstanding.....

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Ok.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that we are the problem that keeps ideas and threads like this going on.

We.

Us.

In the forum.

The majority of people who responded to the OP.

Why? Because shit's wrong and most are aggressively adopting a "Shit, I'm tired of people constantly bringing up reality. It won't get better. My interaction won't make it better. Just shut up about it so I can hide."

I'm a male. A black male, so I don't know where that fits in the mix, but what I do hope to have one day are daughters. And I see shit that happens to women and I do not want it to ever affect them. Nor the female family members I have now.

And being a male, I actively have had shit happened to me where the law (meaning police) told me that they don't know what exactly happened, but they'll haul me down to the station if they had to haul anyone down because I'm the male and that's what's normally done. Not because they had just cause, but because I'm the male, I must be the only threat and/or problem.

I'm tired of living in this world too. I'm tired of having to prove myself because of my race, to really look around when there's an interaction with a female on any level to have support in case it goes sour. I'm tired of not being able just to walk around and not be bombarded with social issues that takes some adjustment on my part and a lot on others to make it a better world.

But who can even argue with the result? A Better World. A world that can be solved by ideas and action? That sounds like it's worth some effort.

There was nothing in the OP's post that's even negative. There were some good points to those who took some time to read them. But because there was 'sexist' in the thread, the same drones of people who self proclaim being tired of this thread willingly came into it to make a mockery of it. What does it serve? What does it serve to even just come in to say they are tired of people constantly talking about this? More bothersome than the stereotypical feminist to me is the Actual Sexism Thread Responders (ASTRs. Feel free to use that). Very few actually want to talk about the issues we all freaking face today and try to bridge some gaps.

YES, it's hard to bridge gaps with ideas, but it's simply impossible if we come into every situation with a closed mind. And if you think it's impossible to always have an open mind on any situation, I'm sure you are right. Then stop coming to situations. Allow those who might want to try to discuss or reach an understanding to discuss and reach an understanding. Hell, create your OWN threads on why no one should talk about sexism. Get it all out there. I'll make a point not to come in there, because my view wouldn't help your discussion.

There serves no purpose to come to a situation to be a flippant roadblock because you can't see it possibly being worked out.

Even if you're just simply tired of the sheer amount of sexism threads... you don't need to come to all of them to say you're tired of reading them. We are very, very lucky to have people nice enough to title these threads. You can avoid them. Sure, they'll be people who flame. And we who decide to continue the conversation can ignore them and try to reach understanding. I personally gain from views of different people. I can't think like a woman, so I'd very much like to hear from a woman's perspective so I can go about my life trying to respect it. That isn't a bad goal. Not for me. If it is for you, please just allow us to try to have a discussion instead of popping in and going "UGH. REALLY. AGAIN?!"

 

[Deleth]

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is a joke, a liar or severely lacking in understanding of how the world works.

Man I love those arguments that are meant to discredit anyone who disagrees with you, directly attacks and demonizes them. It's the worst kind of argument by a large margin and very telling about the person making it.

And you have one that tells you otherwise?

There's quite a few, the problem being that violence against men in GENERAL is extremly under reported. Men tend to not even report crimes commited onto them by other man. The reason being the loss of face and extreme shame they think (and do in fact) bring upon themselves. Some studies suggest that even such severe crimes as for example rape are in the vast, vast, vast mayority NEVER reported by male victims out of shame.

You want stats? Here, have some bloody stats [http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2011-2012/DVAustralia#_Toc309798375]. (Here's the same ones [http://www.domesticviolence.com.au/pages/domestic-violence-statistics.php] in a much shorter and easier to read version.)

Well, whaddaya know? Mostly male-of-female by some fucking huge margins. What a surprise! It's almost as if it's common sense that stronger people are more likely to beat up weaker people than the other way around.

Find me one statistic that says otherwise. One. Fucking one.

This is why I find "male rights advocates", or "double standard pointer-outers" or whatever you want to be called, to be such a silly joke. So desperate to find a double standard to point out that you have to start making them up.

Lastly, yes, I'm aware of gay and lesbian couples. Thing is, they're a tiny minority. Less than one percent in Australia [http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Lookup/2071.0main+features852012-2013]. Not large enough to have any significant impact on the numbers.

People like you make me sick, in fact I've registered because of you after years of lurking around in the background. Every single last credible source we know tells us something completly different than you do. You use some "official" data on REPORTED crimes which simply does not work since it excludes all those unreported ones and they are in fact more than the reported ones.

You are completly ignoring reluctancy of victims to actually report these crimes, often because they are in a relationship, because of the "emasculation" they would face, because of not being taken seriously or even being laughed at and a lot of social pressure not to report them just to further your own agenda.
Women are just as violent as men are, you don't need to be physicaly strong to harm someone, there's lots of things to aid you in doing so nowadays and you are completly ignoring that many victims wont fight back.

Hell, even the vast mayority of child abuse unlike what media tells us, is commited by the mothers nearly twice as often as fathers are to blame for it.

I really can't fathom why people like you are refusing to acknowledge the fact that people are for the most part the same and tend to act the same no matter their gender.

 

[barbzilla]

The only thing I'm willing to add to this thread is that the anti-domestic violence campaigns focus on male-on-female violence because that accounts for the vast, vast, vaaaaaast majority of it.

Actually it only counts for the vast majority of reported, recorded domestic abuse there is a pretty big freaking difference. Domestic violence is massively unreported crime as is, add in gender issues and you've got very skewed and useless statistics.

True story, I've got a m8 who's studied martial arts with me since we were both children (we are both 30 now) and he is abused by his out of shape girlfriend (mostly mental, but she has been arrested for physical abuse in the past). I've tried to get him out of the relationship, but love is a crazy thing.

Many people don't get that women can be just as abusive as men. While it is true that it is often more mental abuse than physical, it is important to understand that every person is capable of the same terrible things. The same can be said of everyone, despite race, sex, sexual orientation, or religion.

At the same time, we will also never have true equality until we can embrace our differences. Understand that not everyone was created equal, but that we should all be treated equally. No two people are alike, so why should two groups? We are a diverse and amazing race (humanity) we should embrace those differences and use them for good.