Police shoot an "armed" middle school student

Recommended Videos

ElPatron

New member
Jul 18, 2011
2,130
0
0
Pebblig said:
Blanks still fire hot gas don't they? Which I assume can be deadly within a distance. I have friends who've fired them in Army Cadets, when firing at each other they have to be a distance of 50m away when firing at another person.
That distance is probably only for safety reasons. Objects obstructing a barrel will be forced out like a bullet with a very poor performance, but enough to injure.


Blanks "fire" burning powder. There is a device on the muzzle that allows the gas to be trapped and cycle the weapon. If it was firing a real bullet, the bullet would seal the barrel and the gas would travel normally, but a unobstructed barrel would not let the weapon cycle with gas alone.

Those devices also block the barrel and I think some kinds of devices can stop 1 or 2 bullets if someone loads real ammo by accident.

Burning powder isn't usually deadly, it leaves small circular "scorched" marks on the skin at point blank. Even if it was very dangerous, it would still not incapacitate a criminal fast enough.



However, this applies to rifles.



A recoil operated weapon requires that the Newton laws have to apply. Unless it is spitting out a bullet, the gasses cannot propel the slide back alone.

A blowback operated pistol would require the barrel to be blocked, so that the gas expansion could force the casing and the slide back. Since there is no bullet blocking the barrel, the gases just travel forward.


That means that the police officer would have to rack the slide to chamber a new round. That takes time.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,756
0
0
Fishyash said:
Both of you were right, and I was thinking before speaking. I guess I was just upset over the fact that the child died over a situation that could have turned out to be completely harmless.
An interesting side note is that they were actually carrying Tasers and the shooting happened outside viable Taser range, according to the Police Chief.
 

senordesol

New member
Oct 12, 2009
1,301
0
0
Shifty Tortoise said:
senordesol said:
Shifty Tortoise said:
senordesol said:
Shifty Tortoise said:
The shots were perfectly justified, it's what the officers were trained to do in the situation, blame their training. In hindsight it may have been better to fire a warning shot, scare him into dropping the pellet gun.
What type of ammunition does one fire for a warning shot?

One of the cardinal rules of firearm safety is KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT LIES BEYOND. So what would be the 'target' of this warning shot? The hard concrete floor were the bullet could easily ricochet? The soft ceiling that may potentially have people above? A wall where the bullet might penetrate and do the same?

Bottom line: Not only do you not fire 'warning' shots, you REALLY do not fire warning shots in a building full of innocent people. The barrel of a gun pointed at your face is warning enough, not to mention repeated commands to 'drop your weapon'.

He had plenty of opportunities to rethink his actions, not least of which was to not bring an object closely resembling a firearm to a school. The police did everything right to resolve what (so far as the information they had indicated) was a potentially deadly situation, and as a comedian once said: you can't fix stupid.
Use blanks.
Police do not carry blanks. Try again.
Hindsight, do you know what that is? Stop lecturing me on police protocol and firearms safety. In a perfect world the police would have better plans for situations like this, but that's the beauty of hindsight
In a 'perfect' world, there would be no need for police period. So let's keep our arguments based in reality. You fancy hindsight, how about some foresight then? In what scenario would a police officer carry blanks as part of standard equipment? I can think of two possible scenarios.

1. They automatically put a blank round in the chamber on top of a clip of regular nines. This posses a problem because it means your first shot is useless (if you need it) or you're fiddling with the action (at a time where fractions of seconds count). If who shoots first determines who goes home, that would be automatically condemning officers to death.

2. They carry a clip of blanks which they need to change out for real rounds or vice-versa. In both instances, they are fumbling for ammunition and wasting precious time (oh, and they'd best remember to pop the one in the chamber).

Face facts: as tragic as the kid's death was, no one is to blame but him. He CHOSE to modify his weapon to make it appear real, he CHOSE to bring it to school, he CHOSE to assault another student, he CHOSE to make death threats with his modified weapon, he CHOSE to ignore police warnings, and he CHOSE to point the weapon at police.

The police had to assume that he was armed and would make good on his threats. The kid's fate is sad, but it's of his own CHOOSING. No different than stepping in front of a train or off a ledge.
 

mcnally86

New member
Apr 23, 2008
425
0
0
ccggenius12 said:
I would not be afraid of bows so much. You see a pipe lying on the street you don't think gun but you see someone hiding a crossbow and well you notice it. So I take it zip guns are a problem in UK too? I was just wondering if they are more or less prevalent when you can more easily buy factory made firearms.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,756
0
0
Pebblig said:
Blanks still fire hot gas don't they? Which I assume can be deadly within a distance. I have friends who've fired them in Army Cadets, when firing at each other they have to be a distance of 50m away when firing at another person.
You're also not supposed to point an empty weapon at your head. This is less because the slide or hammer is still lethal, but in case there's a bullet in it.

Similarly, the "hot gas" is not the issue in firing blanks. Debris in the barrel can function just like a bullet for these purposes.

In short, it's not because you can hurt someone with gas at 50m. It's because "accidents can happen."
 

mcnally86

New member
Apr 23, 2008
425
0
0
Zachary Amaranth said:
Pebblig said:
Blanks still fire hot gas don't they? Which I assume can be deadly within a distance. I have friends who've fired them in Army Cadets, when firing at each other they have to be a distance of 50m away when firing at another person.
You're also not supposed to point an empty weapon at your head. This is less because the slide or hammer is still lethal, but in case there's a bullet in it.

Similarly, the "hot gas" is not the issue in firing blanks. Debris in the barrel can function just like a bullet for these purposes.

In short, it's not because you can hurt someone with gas at 50m. It's because "accidents can happen."
Lets not forget what we learned from the movie "The Crow" blanks do kill actors.
 

AnotherAvatar

New member
Sep 18, 2011
491
0
0
Honestly, I wish cops didn't have the right to use lethal force, we have technology now that can subdue ANYONE in a matter of seconds. There's no reason that the people who are supposed to protect us should be able to kill us it's counter-intuitive.
 

thiosk

New member
Sep 18, 2008
5,408
0
0
When the cops come a'knocking, LIE ON THE FLOOR WITH YOUR HANDS FIRMLY BEHIND YOUR HEAD.

Its the surest way to avoid being shot to death.

Do. Not. Wave. Pellet. Guns. Around. And. Tell. Pigs. To. Suck. It.
 

Hitokiri_Gensai

New member
Jul 17, 2010
727
0
0
Yeah. sorry but you know what, if you draw a gun, even a pellet gun, and ignore repeated warnings to drop the weapon, then youre going to get shot.

A pellet gun, is still a gun to a cop. They're trained to protect their own lives just as much as the public, and if that means a suspect, no matter what age, is holding a gun, and refuses to listen to put it down, then they'll shoot to stop.

I have a friend, whose older brother was pulled over by the police, and when he reached for his paperwork, a pellet gun fell out of the glovebox. The officer drew his gun and made the decision to shoot if he had reached for it.
 

Shifty Tortoise

New member
Sep 10, 2008
364
0
0
senordesol said:
Shifty Tortoise said:
senordesol said:
Shifty Tortoise said:
senordesol said:
Shifty Tortoise said:
The shots were perfectly justified, it's what the officers were trained to do in the situation, blame their training. In hindsight it may have been better to fire a warning shot, scare him into dropping the pellet gun.
What type of ammunition does one fire for a warning shot?

One of the cardinal rules of firearm safety is KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT LIES BEYOND. So what would be the 'target' of this warning shot? The hard concrete floor were the bullet could easily ricochet? The soft ceiling that may potentially have people above? A wall where the bullet might penetrate and do the same?

Bottom line: Not only do you not fire 'warning' shots, you REALLY do not fire warning shots in a building full of innocent people. The barrel of a gun pointed at your face is warning enough, not to mention repeated commands to 'drop your weapon'.

He had plenty of opportunities to rethink his actions, not least of which was to not bring an object closely resembling a firearm to a school. The police did everything right to resolve what (so far as the information they had indicated) was a potentially deadly situation, and as a comedian once said: you can't fix stupid.
Use blanks.
Police do not carry blanks. Try again.
Hindsight, do you know what that is? Stop lecturing me on police protocol and firearms safety. In a perfect world the police would have better plans for situations like this, but that's the beauty of hindsight
In a 'perfect' world, there would be no need for police period. So let's keep our arguments based in reality. You fancy hindsight, how about some foresight then? In what scenario would a police officer carry blanks as part of standard equipment? I can think of two possible scenarios.

1. They automatically put a blank round in the chamber on top of a clip of regular nines. This posses a problem because it means your first shot is useless (if you need it) or you're fiddling with the action (at a time where fractions of seconds count). If who shoots first determines who goes home, that would be automatically condemning officers to death.

2. They carry a clip of blanks which they need to change out for real rounds or vice-versa. In both instances, they are fumbling for ammunition and wasting precious time (oh, and they'd best remember to pop the one in the chamber).

Face facts: as tragic as the kid's death was, no one is to blame but him. He CHOSE to modify his weapon to make it appear real, he CHOSE to bring it to school, he CHOSE to assault another student, he CHOSE to make death threats with his modified weapon, he CHOSE to ignore police warnings, and he CHOSE to point the weapon at police.

The police had to assume that he was armed and would make good on his threats. The kid's fate is sad, but it's of his own CHOOSING. No different than stepping in front of a train or off a ledge.
whatever, you win, you get the last word, have fun you massive child
 

senordesol

New member
Oct 12, 2009
1,301
0
0
Shifty Tortoise said:
whatever, you win, you get the last word, have fun you massive child
I'm not the one taking his ball and going home. Nor am I calling names.

Chin up, I presented you with an argument superior to yours and you recognized it. You just don't want to admit it to save face, I understand. Better luck next time.
 

Booze Zombie

New member
Dec 8, 2007
7,416
0
0
From my very Spartan amount of knowledge on the situation (yes, I kicked the knowledge down a large hole so as to give it more momentum), I'd say it sounds like the boy wanted to be shot.

It's a shame he couldn't have been tranq'd, tasered or any other non-leathal option that might exist.
 

Raesvelg

New member
Oct 22, 2008
486
0
0
Yes, the majority of complaints come from the longer ranges of the 5.56, which does not alter the fact that, as a small bullet moving very quickly, FMJ rounds in that cartridge tend to lack stopping power. It has everything to do with the round; a bullet that does not deform bleeds energy vastly more slowly than one which does, and a small, fast round that does not yaw or deform will tend to cause minimal damage.

There are a surprising number of places on the body where you can poke a quarter-inch hole clean through and not cause lethal or even incapacitating damage. Mostly around the limbs, of course, but even through the torso in some cases. Hence the complaints.

The ideal, frankly, would be something along the lines of one of the new blended metal rounds, which functionally disintegrate inside a soft target. The test footage is... disturbing. Which is why frangible rounds in general are banned from military use.

The fact remains, however, that a FMJ round, particularly if it's been given time to slow down somewhat (which is a significant problem with the shorter-barreled M4, speaking of 5.56x45), runs a much higher chance of passing through the target with minimal damage compared to a hollow point or other frangible round which will dump its energy into the target rapidly and probably catastrophically.

No offense to your friend, but if the round spun him twice and knocked him down, that was less a matter of the power of the bullet and more a matter of him being unprepared for the hit. By the physical laws of the universe, the hit he took contained less energy than the one sustained by the man firing the weapon. Depending on the range, quite possibly considerably less. It is, however, theoretically compressed in time; rather than building over the length of the barrel, it is delivered over the depth of the wound.

And, as you mentioned, getting hit in the elbow doesn't leave a lot of room for expansion; one assumes he must have been struck in the bone in order to get that kind of energy transfer. Couple that with the fact that the arm itself serves as an energy absorption mechanism in this instance, and I seriously doubt that the impact threw him around like a ragdoll, even if the .223 round in question was using a hunting load that would break up on impact.

I also don't dispute that rifles, in general, are more lethal than handguns, in general, particularly when range is taken into account, as most handguns, due to a combination of factors, are not especially dangerous at ranges over a couple hundred feet at best.

It's important to note, however, that not all rounds are created equal, and that a heavier round, moving more slowly, can have more energy than a smaller round, moving faster. A 300 grain or so .44 Magnum round will actually hit harder than the 70 or so grain bullet from a .223 Remington cartridge, even though the .223 has a muzzle velocity around twice that of the .44.
 

Raesvelg

New member
Oct 22, 2008
486
0
0
Pebblig said:
Blanks still fire hot gas don't they? Which I assume can be deadly within a distance. I have friends who've fired them in Army Cadets, when firing at each other they have to be a distance of 50m away when firing at another person.
50m is... excessive, though wadding or debris in the barrel could be dangerous out to several meters. The gas from the cartridge itself is lethal at point-blank range though.
 

SD-Fiend

Member
Legacy
Nov 24, 2009
2,075
0
1
Country
United States
AnotherAvatar said:
Honestly, I wish cops didn't have the right to use lethal force, we have technology now that can subdue ANYONE in a matter of seconds. There's no reason that the people who are supposed to protect us should be able to kill us it's counter-intuitive.
like what? there are quite a few posts saying other methods wouldn't have worked or could have made things worse.
 

JB1528

New member
Mar 17, 2009
186
0
0
Hennofletch said:
*Rolls up sleeves and wades in*

Okay just to stop the America hate from some people on this board, I'm from the UK. There I said it, they say that's the first step to recovery.

In the UK we have armed police officers but they are in the minority. As guns are not as common here, the bulk of our police have the luxury of being unarmed.

BUT in this circumstance armed officers would have responded and would have almost certainly shot this kid. If Unarmed cops showed up and this guy had a real gun they would be dead. End of.

In the US where guns are much more common, it is imperative that cops are armed. Going unarmed against a gunman is suicide.

Guns are a fact of life. To try and wish them away are naive to say the least.

I'm not a gun nut, I'm from the UK and in this instance I'd have shot the kid. Then I'd have booked some counselling to deal with the nightmares.

*Retreats to a position of cover*
Well thank you sir you saved me five minutes of typing.
 

JB1528

New member
Mar 17, 2009
186
0
0
Shifty Tortoise said:
senordesol said:
Shifty Tortoise said:
senordesol said:
Shifty Tortoise said:
senordesol said:
Shifty Tortoise said:
The shots were perfectly justified, it's what the officers were trained to do in the situation, blame their training. In hindsight it may have been better to fire a warning shot, scare him into dropping the pellet gun.
What type of ammunition does one fire for a warning shot?

One of the cardinal rules of firearm safety is KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT LIES BEYOND. So what would be the 'target' of this warning shot? The hard concrete floor were the bullet could easily ricochet? The soft ceiling that may potentially have people above? A wall where the bullet might penetrate and do the same?

Bottom line: Not only do you not fire 'warning' shots, you REALLY do not fire warning shots in a building full of innocent people. The barrel of a gun pointed at your face is warning enough, not to mention repeated commands to 'drop your weapon'.

He had plenty of opportunities to rethink his actions, not least of which was to not bring an object closely resembling a firearm to a school. The police did everything right to resolve what (so far as the information they had indicated) was a potentially deadly situation, and as a comedian once said: you can't fix stupid.
Use blanks.
Police do not carry blanks. Try again.
Hindsight, do you know what that is? Stop lecturing me on police protocol and firearms safety. In a perfect world the police would have better plans for situations like this, but that's the beauty of hindsight
In a 'perfect' world, there would be no need for police period. So let's keep our arguments based in reality. You fancy hindsight, how about some foresight then? In what scenario would a police officer carry blanks as part of standard equipment? I can think of two possible scenarios.

1. They automatically put a blank round in the chamber on top of a clip of regular nines. This posses a problem because it means your first shot is useless (if you need it) or you're fiddling with the action (at a time where fractions of seconds count). If who shoots first determines who goes home, that would be automatically condemning officers to death.

2. They carry a clip of blanks which they need to change out for real rounds or vice-versa. In both instances, they are fumbling for ammunition and wasting precious time (oh, and they'd best remember to pop the one in the chamber).

Face facts: as tragic as the kid's death was, no one is to blame but him. He CHOSE to modify his weapon to make it appear real, he CHOSE to bring it to school, he CHOSE to assault another student, he CHOSE to make death threats with his modified weapon, he CHOSE to ignore police warnings, and he CHOSE to point the weapon at police.

The police had to assume that he was armed and would make good on his threats. The kid's fate is sad, but it's of his own CHOOSING. No different than stepping in front of a train or off a ledge.
whatever, you win, you get the last word, have fun you massive child
Actually no you lost cause he made a better argument than you. Not because he got the last word/
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Oct 5, 2011
10,845
1
3
Country
United States
Oh for the love of fuck, WE DON'T CARE HOW YOU HANDLE IT IN THE UK PEOPLE! Stop trying to make us all look like gun toting, cheeseburger easting, ignorant fat asses, for fuck's sake it's getting annoying.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

New member
May 22, 2010
7,368
0
0
Aprilgold said:
One Hit Noob said:
Pfft. There's that story again. "Our son isn't a wacko, "He mows the lawn and does chores and stuff"". Okay, I feel bad, but why would an "angel" SUDDENLY have a strange behavioral change to hold a pellet gun and mess with officers?

Also, it's every man for himself in this world. I wouldn't want to die from a lawn-mowing, chore-completing angel who suddenly brought a handgun to school and shot my brains out. Solution? Fire back. Oh it's a pellet gun? Well, imagine it was a handgun!
Thats still not the correct reasoning, aren't pellet guns supposed to have BRIGHT PARTS TO IDENTIFY ITS NOT REAL somewhere on it? Hold on while I google Pellet Guns in Bing Images and see what I find. Yep, here's what I found.


If the cop is blind enough NOT to see the cap then either the kid took it off or this guy didn't wear his contacts.

Clive Howlitzer said:
If the officer felt his life was in danger, he had every right to shoot the kid. I work at a police department and my officers don't just draw their weapons on a whim, nor do they discharge them for fun. In regards to the number of shots also, when you make the decision to fire your weapon, you are making the decision to use lethal force to bring down that subject. You aren't shooting at them to "injure" them.
It is a tragic incident but the officer was not in the wrong.
So your saying the Cap on the gun in question was not on the gun the youngster used, or wasn't bright enough, isn't it a law for the cap to be on there, I'm pretty sure that it might / should have been, but it all depends on what the kid was doing, and the link for me was broken.

I'm fine with him doing the kill, but if the gun had that cap, then its the cop to blame, if it didn't, then its the kids fault. All I gotta say is WHY THE FUCK AREN'T THEY ALLOWED TO USE TASERS! God damn I better go stretch before I want to pop a cap in somebodies ass.

Esotera said:
Because one bullet isn't necessarily going to take someone down, and the last thing you want is a pissed-off injured person with a gun. They probably won't release what he said because they're being investigated, and it's somehow relevant to that.

Or alternatively, dead men tell no tales. It's hard to judge this story in an unbiased way.
Thats the other thing, we have to go by what the cop says, since the person is dead. I don't think that we can even begin to say who's in the right or wrong until one or the other has full on evidence. Though, in all honesty, that kid should have been smarter.
I hope someone has already corrected you on this, but in case they haven't: no, no they aren't. There are pellet guns that are as powerful as a .22 rifle, and even the cheap ones can kill under the right circumstances. Airsoft guns are required to have an orange tip in some countries, but not in the U.S., because they aren't classed as toys here. For those who are curious, toy guns /do/ have to have an orange tip in the U.S., it's just that pellet guns are very much not toys; they're training tools at the least, strong enough to reliably take down small game on the other end. Airsoft pistols are something different, but they're like a more realistic but less powerful version of Paintball guns -- which can also kill under the right circumstances. Moral of the story: don't play with guns, especially not carelessly, /and don't brandish them at cops unless you want to die./
 

Gyrohelix

New member
Aug 3, 2011
84
0
0
Alright, so I spoke of something I'm not omniscient about, ONE correction is enough, not 5.