[Politcs] When your KID knows better than calling the police on someone simply because he's Black.

[Xprimentyl]

Maybe now we should start politely pulling over speeders doing 5 mph over the speed limit, or politely accosting old ladies sampling a grape at the grocery store before paying for the whole bunch, or politely tattling on a moviegoer we catch sneaking in their Milk Duds from a store in lieu of paying the exorbitant prices at the theater.

You still don't seem to understand what happened here. The dad left (presumedly) his home with his son, and the person filming went in through that open door. It's not as though he saw a guy sneak in any old building and decided to act as the police. The guy filming got into the locked building because he, the dad, was the one that opened the door which let him in. If this dad had let the man go in without question and then someone got robbed (or worse), it would be partially the dad's fault for letting a criminal into the building. A quick "excuse me, what are you going in there for" (imagining what might have started the exchange) is in no way unreasonable. I work in a similarly locked building, and if I let someone in the building, I typically joke "you're not an axe-murderer, are you?" And even with an asinine joke like that, they still pretty universally tell me who they're there to see, that they were waiting at the door for.

I lived in an apartment complex with hundreds of units. It was a gated community meaning, when you pulled up in your car, you had to input a code to open the gate and allow passage. There was a sign on the unmanned gate stating something to the effect of ?one car at a time.? If I had a dollar for every time over the course of the three years I lived there that I saw multiple cars tailgate through on a single entry of the code, hell, for every time I tailgated, I could buy a small island far from this country and nonsense like this. I didn?t know MOST of my neighbors meaning they were strangers. By your rationale, any one of us would have been justified in slamming on our brakes and demanding personal information and proof that the other belonged there, then calling the cops when, *SURPRISE*, strangers get upset when they?re harassed. How insane does that sound?

Presuming he is a tenant of that building, that man who called the police wasn?t leaving his ?home;? he was leaving a building in which he and several likely a hundred other people live. And more than likely, most of those people are strangers who might have visitors who are further removed strangers; why did he chose Michel? Why that stranger? Why did he feel the right to demand of that stranger his reasons for being there? Why did he think that was ok? Baffle2 said it:

Why would anyone need to explain to another person who has no authority whatsoever who they are or why they are where they are? This doesn't happen (to me, anyway) in my neck of the woods, but I'd be seriously fucked off if it did.

EXACTLY this; Michel had every right to be ?seriously fucked off? and that rude asshole is lucky all he got was recorded.

And when someone refuses to tell you who they're there for, refuses to step outside, and gives you answers like "I don't give a f^&8, I don't have to tell you s@#$" you call the authorities.

Um? no, I don?t; MOST rational people don?t; MOST people have no RIGHT to ask any of that of anyone. We don?t engage with and demand personal and private information from strangers in a relatively public space (?public? insofar as it was a common area shared by all tenets of the building and not a private domicile let alone HIS private domicile.)

This is the exact problem; embolden, white people taking it upon themselves to put black people in their place and involving the police when they don?t get their way. Decent people mind their own damn business; they don?t make other people?s business their own, then get pissy, pout, tattle to the cops, and then virtue signal that their ?just doing the right thing.? This is passive-aggressiveness with serious, potentially lethal, implications and entirely unjustified, and if the day comes that I, as a black man, have to answer every white person with questions and a cell phone, I?m out, America; fuck that? PERIOD.

 

[Agema]

Out of curiosity, what possible better outcome could there be? He seems to have behaved calmly and rationally,

Calmly, yes. Rationally? I'm not so sure.

I think he's actually quite aggressive - not in the sense of being shouty and in-your-face, but that he leaps quickly to being accusatory and demanding. He potentially wasn't very polite, seemingly makes little or no effort to explain himself and how he feels about the situation in more detail, makes implicit demands (likely to get someone's back up) and then instantly threatens to call the police.

Sometimes it's the small things, and they can snowball into greater intransigence and conflict. Wesly Michel does not do himself any favours either - escalation usually requires two.

 

[CaitSeith]

Kudos to the kid for trying to stop the whole situation.

I wonder why the dad thought it was a good idea to self-appoint himself as the security guard. What kind of mentality drove him to try to interrogate a stranger like that? It's not his job and obviously he isn't trained in that. Where did these people learn to be so paranoid and incompetent?

 

[Xprimentyl]

Kudos to the kid for trying to stop the whole situation.

I wonder why the dad thought it was a good idea to self-appoint himself as the security guard. What kind of mentality drove him to try to interrogate a stranger like that? It's not his job and obviously he isn't trained in that. Where did these people learn to be so paranoid and incompetent?

They didn?t ?learn? this paranoia; it?s the deep-rooted racism that had been begrudgingly festering finally boiling over since the guy in the White House validated it and sanctioned white nationalism (y?know, we just got our country back from the black guy who fucked everything up) and essentially told them it?s ok assert themselves when they feel the darkies get out of line.

 

[Neurotic Void Melody]

What a sniveling shit of a human, blatantly trying to get off on a power trip. Best of luck to the kiddo, what it feels like to be growing up saddled with a loud and proud bigoted embarrassment for a parent ain't fun when you see through it all.

 

[tstorm823]

Correctly identifying someone who doesn't live in the building does not mean you correctly identified a trespasser. And that's a very important point because he didn't call the police over "I don't know who this person is", he called in a trespasser.

You're right, he didn't call the police over "I don't know who this person is". That would be ridiculous. When he didn't know who the person was, he seems to have asked who the person was and was refused an answer. He would not name who he was there to see. The dad tried to get him to step outside because he didn't want to let a stranger into the building, and was refused that as well. These things change the circumstances. Everyone is acting as though the dad in the video saw a person go through an open door and spontaneously called the cops. You can tell from the conversation that was captured that they had already gone back and forth. the man went from stranger to trespasser when he wouldn't cooperate with the person who let him in the building.

I think he's actually quite aggressive - not in the sense of being shouty and in-your-face, but that he leaps quickly to being accusatory and demanding. He potentially wasn't very polite, seemingly makes little or no effort to explain himself and how he feels about the situation in more detail, makes implicit demands (likely to get someone's back up) and then instantly threatens to call the police.

Sometimes it's the small things, and they can snowball into greater intransigence and conflict. Wesly Michel does not do himself any favours either - escalation usually requires two.

I may be making some assumptions of what happened before the camera turned on, but you're acting as though there was nothing. We have no idea how long the exchange happened before the camera turned on. I highly doubt the man filming "oh, the guy coming out of the building asked who I was there to see, better get my phone out!" There was some amount of interaction we can't see, that from the statements made in the video it's safe to assume the dad a) asked who he was there to visit, b) ask them to call on the callbox, c) ask him to step back outside the door. All of that had to happen already for the phrasing in the video to make any sense. And the guy filming cursing at the dad is how he behaves when he's putting himself on camera to make a case for himself, god knows what he said before turning the camera on. The only thing we know is it wasn't "I'm here to meet Cathy."

Kudos to the kid for trying to stop the whole situation.

The kid was trying to stop the situation because he was terrified of an altercation with a stranger. He wasn't bravely trying to stop his father from being a mega-racist, he was just trying to run away from conflict.

Please, people. Watch the video. If you really see a racist on a power trip, you've left reality behind entirely.

 

[Baffle]

the man went from stranger to trespasser when he wouldn't cooperate with the person who let him in the building.

No, he never became a trespasser. I feel it's been made quite clear he was there to meet a friend. He turns up at the end of the video.

I don't think the guy was actually a racist on a power trip, I just think he judged someone by the colour of their skin and then called the police. Hopefully a video will be uploaded soon of him accosting a white guy going about his business, then we can put this whole racism angle to bed.

 

[CaitSeith]

Kudos to the kid for trying to stop the whole situation.

The kid was trying to stop the situation because he was terrified of an altercation with a stranger.

That'd be good enough to deserve a kudos; but when the friend arrives, the kid saying "Told you!" shows that he knew better than his father. His dad was creating a conflict over something that wasn't their business for no good reason.

 

[tstorm823]

No, he never became a trespasser. I feel it's been made quite clear he was there to meet a friend. He turns up at the end of the video.

I don't think the guy was actually a racist on a power trip, I just think he judged someone by the colour of their skin and then called the police. Hopefully a video will be uploaded soon of him accosting a white guy going about his business, then we can put this whole racism angle to bed.

Here's a question for you: is someone with access to a locked facility obligated to let people into that locked facility?

That's relevant, because it isn't the situation that the dad accosted someone for being a stranger in the building. The interaction started when the dad was involuntarily used as a door jam. Is he obligated to let literally anyone who wants to into that building?

That'd be good enough to deserve a kudos; but when the friend arrives, the kid saying "Told you!" shows that he knew better than his father. His dad was creating a conflict over something that wasn't their business for no good reason.

The dad knew better. The kid was wrong.

 

[Trunkage]

Of course this is the bit you pull out

This Michel guy literally has to do none of that. He doesn't have to divulge any information or tell him where he's going. Ask all you want but this is not 1984.

The blocker has a right to ask things and to stop him from coming into his unit. But his building? Maybe you guys have different laws in America. Also, the blocker would be responsible? Yeah that's the main reason for my response. That's just nonsense.

Also, where is the presumption of innocence? Or is that only for white people. Lastly, talking about recording from your earlier post. If I was a black man in America, I'd be video everything. Your word means squat to white people (and your providing evidence of this right now.) Its an insurance policy so you don't go to jail for someone else's prejudice. I'd probably do it if I was a woman too.

Why is he "the blocker?" Once again, the man filming is already inside the building. The dad is not physically preventing him from going wherever he wants to. The dad is outside of the building asking why the person filming went into it. This isn't taking anyone's word over another, this is literally just looking at the footage. It's taken from the inside of the building looking out.

He literally tries to deny access to the complex. You could say he didn't succeed which means he's an attempted blocker. You could say it hasn't been proven in court making him an alledged blocker. But blocking was his goal.

As already stated the footage doesnt concern me. It's like a white guy having a gun. Its protection from idiots like this.

And you probably think it's nonsense because you think I meant he would be legally responsible for crimes committed, which would be nonsense. But morally, he would be. If I let someone into a building they shouldn't be in and they murdered someone, they won't take me to trial but that doesn't mean I wasn't morally negligent. Yes, I think someone who has access to an otherwise locked facility has the moral obligation not to let random strangers in without justification.

I can agree with the moral thing.

Another resident had some stuff stolen from a complex I resided in only a year and a half ago. I had no interaction with the thieves but still felt remorse

But I still let people into the complex afterwards because that is an outlier case. The theives were Asians. They are well aware that most Asian keep a bunch of money at home instead of a bank, hence were targetting them in the complex.

I probably should have stopped all Asians from coming in. But I'm not going to do that. 99.9% of Asians aren't thieves. Treating a whole race like criminals because of a bad apple is against my philosophy.

 

[CaitSeith]

That'd be good enough to deserve a kudos; but when the friend arrives, the kid saying "Told you!" shows that he knew better than his father. His dad was creating a conflict over something that wasn't their business for no good reason.

The dad knew better. The kid was wrong.

Every fact we know points to the opposite.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

If you think he's a burgler why would you endanger your child like that standing in front of him while you ring the cops?. He could stab you and run!

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

You're right, he didn't call the police over "I don't know who this person is". That would be ridiculous. When he didn't know who the person was, he seems to have asked who the person was and was refused an answer. He would not name who he was there to see. The dad tried to get him to step outside because he didn't want to let a stranger into the building, and was refused that as well. These things change the circumstances. Everyone is acting as though the dad in the video saw a person go through an open door and spontaneously called the cops. You can tell from the conversation that was captured that they had already gone back and forth. the man went from stranger to trespasser when he wouldn't cooperate with the person who let him in the building.

Disagreement.

He went from stranger and stayed as a stranger because, and I see you've been dodging this issue as many times as it's brought up, Cukor is not in a position where anyone has to legally answer to him. Nor is he in a position to sign off or allow people to enter that building as he see fit. Michel went from Stranger to at most 'Dick who won't answer my question'.

That doesn't warrant the cops.

You can talk about all the niceties that Cukor tried to do with Michel. He wasn't in the position to ask these things. He could always ask. But he can get a no.

Cukor's need to have his curosity stated is no stronger or more urgent than Michel's need to not be harassed for another thing like he always has just for living his life. Both are equally as valid, and both definitely don't need the cops called if they are not met.

Yet one person did.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Apparently, this man's father was killed by a trespasser because the police didn't come when he tried calling them so this guy is prolly extra wary of trespassers. This one has some nuance to it.

https://www.sfgate.com/crime/amp/Slain-Berkeley-man-s-family-says-police-share-3480628.php

 

[Drathnoxis]

Are you serious? What was there in the video to imply that he was doing this 'simply because the man was black'? The man filming was antagonistic and refused to answer reasonable questions about his purpose gaining entry into locked premises without using a key. The dad was doing his duty to the other tenants, the kid was just self interested and didn't want to be involved in the situation for no other reason than the conflict scared him.

This is a disturbing world we live in in which people will rather pull out their phones to attempt to publicly vilify someone rather than answer a few simple questions to resolve a conflict. That's just terrifying. What are you even supposed to do? You can try to do what you think is right and suddenly you have thousands of people judging your every word and the framing and editing is all at the discretion of someone trying to make you look bad. You can't just surrender anytime someone pulls out a phone, but at the same time who wants to be dragged through the mud like this? And anybody can do this, any time, to force the situation in their favor, whether they are in the right or not. They may never even post the video, but the threat alone would be enough to make a lot of people cave. I hope I never find myself in a conflict like this.

 

[generals3]

From all the examples of racism one could pull out this is probably among the silliest. While many people don't act as cautiously about potential trespassers in locked buildings what this man did is following basic safety procedure. I mean hell sometimes local authorities tell people to even ask people in postal or police uniforms to ask for identification and badges before opening the door because robbers use fake uniforms to get into houses or appartment buildings. Most people (me included) never do that, but I wouldn't consider someone doing that to be out of line or assume he is racist because the person happened to be non-white.

And i find the way the video starts to be very damning of the person filming.
The white person just asks him to call his friend on the call box and the response is "I'm not going to do that, you can just walk away". That doesn't sound like a very satisfactory answer to me.

And to all who make the assumption the man wouldn't have acted like that if the person entering was white: you're doing exactly what you're accusing the white man of; making assumptions. Even worse, your assumptions are even more baseless as you know nothing about the man while in this case the white man knew the black man used him to enter a building he shouldn't have access to and refused to call the person he was allegedly visiting/waiting for.

 

[Trunkage]

From all the examples of racism one could pull out this is probably among the silliest. While many people don't act as cautiously about potential trespassers in locked buildings what this man did is following basic safety procedure. I mean hell sometimes local authorities tell people to even ask people in postal or police uniforms to ask for identification and badges before opening the door because robbers use fake uniforms to get into houses or appartment buildings. Most people (me included) never do that, but I wouldn't consider someone doing that to be out of line or assume he is racist because the person happened to be non-white.

And i find the way the video starts to be very damning of the person filming.
The white person just asks him to call his friend on the call box and the response is "I'm not going to do that, you can just walk away". That doesn't sound like a very satisfactory answer to me.

And to all who make the assumption the man wouldn't have acted like that if the person entering was white: you're doing exactly what you're accusing the white man of; making assumptions. Even worse, your assumptions are even more baseless as you know nothing about the man while in this case the white man knew the black man used him to enter a building he shouldn't have access to and refused to call the person he was allegedly visiting/waiting for.

Hearing Cuckor's apology, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt on the whole racism thing.

But why did Michel have to do anything Cuckor said? I certainly would have ignored Cuckor when he starts claiming that its a lie but Im also not black. I would be taping every negative interaction. Of course Michel is cranky. He's been called a liar and is implied to be a criminal. I can't believe he has so much patience

 

[Terminal Blue]

Apparently, this man's father was killed by a trespasser because the police didn't come when he tried calling them so this guy is prolly extra wary of trespassers. This one has some nuance to it.

Frightened people don't smirk.

We all know these people.

 

[generals3]

Hearing Cuckor's apology, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt on the whole racism thing.

But why did Michel have to do anything Cuckor said? I certainly would have ignored Cuckor when he starts claiming that its a lie but Im also not black. I would be taping every negative interaction. Of course Michel is cranky. He's been called a liar and is implied to be a criminal. I can't believe he has so much patience

Why would Cuckor assume it is anything but a lie? The person is litterally giving him nothing, doesn't want to contact his friend, give his/her name, whatever. At this point nothing suggests he's being truthful. He's being needlessly uncooperative which makes him appear needlessly suspect.

 

[Silvanus]

The person is litterally giving him nothing, doesn't want to contact his friend, give his/her name, whatever.

Why on earth should he? He's being asked to by a total stranger with no authority.