(Politic) Alabama passes bill to ban abortion completely

[CaitSeith]

Good guy Alabama looking out for those without a voice. /s

As long as the supreme court verdict remains, the bill won't actually ban anything. However, it does embolden pro-lifers across the country.

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

No it won't. No it will goddamn not.

I agree with erttheking. It didn't give it before safe abortions were available; it won't give it now.

 

[09philj]

Good guy Alabama looking out for those without a voice. /s

As long as the supreme court verdict remains, the bill won't actually ban anything. However, it does embolden pro-lifers across the country.

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

No it won't. No it will goddamn not.

I agree with erttheking. It didn't give it before safe abortions were available; it won't give it now.

Some people are stupid.
Some people are unlucky.
Some people are sex offenders.
There's always going to be unwanted pregnancies, and for all their talk of being pro-life the Republicans really don't give a damn what happens as long as there's no abortion.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

No. That's factually wrong, condemning people for having a sex life is morally wrong, and the phrase "devil's advocate" doesn't make it better.

Good guy Alabama looking out for those without a voice. /s

As long as the supreme court verdict remains, the bill won't actually ban anything. However, it does embolden pro-lifers across the country.

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

No it won't. No it will goddamn not.

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

The best way to get people to have healthier, safer sex is to provide them with good sex ed and easy access to contraceptives. Going the Alabama route of making abortion's illegal and not providing any sex ed at all is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and hoping your kids will be too afraid of sex (like, are teenagers ever?) to try it. If you want to keep teenagers and young adults from having unsafe sex, the best thing you can do is tell them the risks involved with sex and give them the means to mitigate the worsts risks, like pregnancy and STDs. But that would also involve adult people having to face their own prudeness and shame and speak to teenagers and young adults like people who can actually weigh risks in a responsible manner, which is not something that neo-con Christians are all that into.

Good guy Alabama looking out for those without a voice. /s

As long as the supreme court verdict remains, the bill won't actually ban anything. However, it does embolden pro-lifers across the country.

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

No one works like that. The only way that would possibly happen is if they really bumped up sex education and female empowerment and even then its really iffy.

Yeesh, I leave home for half the day with my dad on a trip and look at all these reponses...

Just letting everyone know 2 things about me regarding this:

1. My knowledge on the larger scope that is this whole Abortion Politics are slim at worst but.

2. I am in favor of abortion and especially it being Pro-Choice. I know of the issues when you outlaw abortion. I was just looking at some kind of bright side that people would be more responsible with their sex life. But your responses indicate to me that there is no bright side in this. So I am expecting a lot of Bastards and Orphans in Alabama.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

Abortion as an option is legal under US Federal Law?

 

[Schadrach]

Yeah, it takes like 3 minutes to look this stuff up.

Basically, it moves up the legal abortion date from 20, to 6 weeks (around the same time women even realize they're pregnant if they aren't repetitively looking for it and burning up pregnancy tests)

And there is no exemption for rape or incest

and doctors who perform abortions are charged with a class A felony and up to 99 years in prison

The currently unconstitutional one in my state (that was found in violation of the state constitution and also Roe v Wade, though the state constitution was amended last year to specifically not protect abortion whatsoever) bans it outright (the only exception being if it is done in good faith to save the life of the mother) and is a felony, but the maximum penalty is only 10 years. It also specifies that if the mother dies from the procedure that they are also guilty of murder. So if Roe v Wade falls, then a simple legal challenge to bring it back into enforcement (which just has to point out that the reasons it was not lawful are no longer valid) is all it would take.

Spoiler: West Virginia Code 61-2-8

?61-2-8. Abortion; penalty.
Any person who shall administer to, or cause to be taken by, a woman, any drug or other thing, or use any means, with intent to destroy her unborn child, or to produce abortion or miscarriage, and shall thereby destroy such child, or produce such abortion or miscarriage, shall be guilty of a felony, and, upon conviction, shall be confined in the penitentiary not less than three nor more than ten years; and if such woman die by reason of such abortion performed upon her, such person shall be guilty of murder. No person, by reason of any act mentioned in this section, shall be punishable where such act is done in good faith, with the intention of saving the life of such woman or child.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

Abortion as an option is legal under US Federal Law?

Yes. Since 1973, the Supreme Court ruled abortion legal through the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade

Now the justice department can choose not to challenge Alabama, like they don't challenge pot laws in states, but they will and a judge will strike down that new law immediately.

 

[Worgen]

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

No. That's factually wrong, condemning people for having a sex life is morally wrong, and the phrase "devil's advocate" doesn't make it better.

Good guy Alabama looking out for those without a voice. /s

As long as the supreme court verdict remains, the bill won't actually ban anything. However, it does embolden pro-lifers across the country.

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

No it won't. No it will goddamn not.

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

The best way to get people to have healthier, safer sex is to provide them with good sex ed and easy access to contraceptives. Going the Alabama route of making abortion's illegal and not providing any sex ed at all is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and hoping your kids will be too afraid of sex (like, are teenagers ever?) to try it. If you want to keep teenagers and young adults from having unsafe sex, the best thing you can do is tell them the risks involved with sex and give them the means to mitigate the worsts risks, like pregnancy and STDs. But that would also involve adult people having to face their own prudeness and shame and speak to teenagers and young adults like people who can actually weigh risks in a responsible manner, which is not something that neo-con Christians are all that into.

Good guy Alabama looking out for those without a voice. /s

As long as the supreme court verdict remains, the bill won't actually ban anything. However, it does embolden pro-lifers across the country.

Well to play devil's advocate, mabye this will now give people incentive to basically "Keep it in their pants"

No one works like that. The only way that would possibly happen is if they really bumped up sex education and female empowerment and even then its really iffy.

Yeesh, I leave home for half the day with my dad on a trip and look at all these reponses...

Just letting everyone know 2 things about me regarding this:

1. My knowledge on the larger scope that is this whole Abortion Politics are slim at worst but.

2. I am in favor of abortion and especially it being Pro-Choice. I know of the issues when you outlaw abortion. I was just looking at some kind of bright side that people would be more responsible with their sex life. But your responses indicate to me that there is no bright side in this. So I am expecting a lot of Bastards and Orphans in Alabama.

I'm actually expecting an uptick in crime. Rich people will always find a way, but poor people will be stuck with unwanted children and they will be treated as such which tends to create criminals.

 

[Worgen]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

The reason they are doing this is because currently the courts are conservative with possibly no swing vote. Kennedy was the swing vote on abortion before but now that we have two trump appointees, there is a good chance that they will vote to overturn the federal abortion law. This is why they are pulling this, because they are sure the court will side with them and abortion will be outlawed nationwide.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

The reason they are doing this is because currently the courts are conservative with possibly no swing vote. Kennedy was the swing vote on abortion before but now that we have two trump appointees, there is a good chance that they will vote to overturn the federal abortion law. This is why they are pulling this, because they are sure the court will side with them and abortion will be outlawed nationwide.

Oh I know. And they'll give it their best shot. But the blowback if it does succeed will be monstrous for Republicans. Like losing the 2020 election, and Congress and having all of Trump's supreme court nominees impeached(which yes you can impeach them) and having a Dem president throw on new judges and a new law passed, challenged and affirmed by the courts with 6 months.

 

[Worgen]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

The reason they are doing this is because currently the courts are conservative with possibly no swing vote. Kennedy was the swing vote on abortion before but now that we have two trump appointees, there is a good chance that they will vote to overturn the federal abortion law. This is why they are pulling this, because they are sure the court will side with them and abortion will be outlawed nationwide.

Oh I know. And they'll give it their best shot. But the blowback if it does succeed will be monstrous for Republicans. Like losing the 2020 election, and Congress and having all of Trump's supreme court nominees impeached(which yes you can impeach them) and having a Dem president throw on new judges and a new law passed, challenged and affirmed by the courts with 6 months.

I really doubt that would happen. The american public would need to be more out for blood before we would impeach a judge or there would have to be hard evidence of a crime committed by one of them. It would be bad for republicans, but potentially not as bad as you would think, their base is almost single issue about abortion and they can make enough sounds so people think they will do something about other things. I mean look at how many "fiscally conservative" people vote republican despite the fact they always balloon the debt and will never lessen military spending. Plus, democrats tend to like to play by the rules so while a minority would be down for trying to impeach, the majority probably wouldn't be.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

The reason they are doing this is because currently the courts are conservative with possibly no swing vote. Kennedy was the swing vote on abortion before but now that we have two trump appointees, there is a good chance that they will vote to overturn the federal abortion law. This is why they are pulling this, because they are sure the court will side with them and abortion will be outlawed nationwide.

Oh I know. And they'll give it their best shot. But the blowback if it does succeed will be monstrous for Republicans. Like losing the 2020 election, and Congress and having all of Trump's supreme court nominees impeached(which yes you can impeach them) and having a Dem president throw on new judges and a new law passed, challenged and affirmed by the courts with 6 months.

I really doubt that would happen. The american public would need to be more out for blood before we would impeach a judge or there would have to be hard evidence of a crime committed by one of them. It would be bad for republicans, but potentially not as bad as you would think, their base is almost single issue about abortion and they can make enough sounds so people think they will do something about other things. I mean look at how many "fiscally conservative" people vote republican despite the fact they always balloon the debt and will never lessen military spending. Plus, democrats tend to like to play by the rules so while a minority would be down for trying to impeach, the majority probably wouldn't be.

that is one thing dems do that's starting to piss me off. We live in a post-rules world right now. People are openly ignoring subpoenas, and Nancy Pelosi is out there thinking she might hold them in contempt of congress. No girl, that shit is straight up illegal! You can't ignore a subpoena! Get the DC police to go arrest them and jail them until they agree to adhere to the summons.

 

[Dr. Thrax]

Yes. Since 1973, the Supreme Court ruled abortion legal through the US.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade

Now the justice department can choose not to challenge Alabama, like they don't challenge pot laws in states, but they will and a judge will strike down that new law immediately.

The problem is that Republicans are using these laws as a setup to challenge Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court and right now they have their best shot at actually succeeding. But at this point the current system is too broken to even throw any serious consequences on the Republicans if they win. Not only would we have to oust the Republicans, but we'd have to oust all the Establishment Democrats like Pelosi who are too busy playing "Civility politics" to even do anything more than wag their fingers and look disappointed. There will likely be blowback on a more localized scale, Republican voters suddenly finding out "But I'm getting hurt, too! You're supposed to hurt them not me!!!" (See: people who regret voting for Trump during this latest tax season) But we don't actually have a strong enough opposition party to put any major consequences on the Republicans.

 

[Worgen]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

The reason they are doing this is because currently the courts are conservative with possibly no swing vote. Kennedy was the swing vote on abortion before but now that we have two trump appointees, there is a good chance that they will vote to overturn the federal abortion law. This is why they are pulling this, because they are sure the court will side with them and abortion will be outlawed nationwide.

Oh I know. And they'll give it their best shot. But the blowback if it does succeed will be monstrous for Republicans. Like losing the 2020 election, and Congress and having all of Trump's supreme court nominees impeached(which yes you can impeach them) and having a Dem president throw on new judges and a new law passed, challenged and affirmed by the courts with 6 months.

I really doubt that would happen. The american public would need to be more out for blood before we would impeach a judge or there would have to be hard evidence of a crime committed by one of them. It would be bad for republicans, but potentially not as bad as you would think, their base is almost single issue about abortion and they can make enough sounds so people think they will do something about other things. I mean look at how many "fiscally conservative" people vote republican despite the fact they always balloon the debt and will never lessen military spending. Plus, democrats tend to like to play by the rules so while a minority would be down for trying to impeach, the majority probably wouldn't be.

that is one thing dems do that's starting to piss me off. We live in a post-rules world right now. People are openly ignoring subpoenas, and Nancy Pelosi is out there thinking she might hold them in contempt of congress. No girl, that shit is straight up illegal! You can't ignore a subpoena! Get the DC police to go arrest them and jail them until they agree to adhere to the summons.

One probable reason she is hesitant is because this will push things to the breaking point, its entirely possible that while the law is on congresses side, they don't have any method to actually enforce it. Like the Justice Department is trumps, no ifs ands or buts, so they can't be relied upon to do anything congress wants and the republicans are also trumps. I'm not sure what he could do to get them to turn on him and the supreme court is... well not trumps but certainly conservative and would probably back him. The worry is that congress will push as hard as they can and we will find out just how broken our system is if they are actually incapable of doing anything. I think that actually might be the full downfall of the US government.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Well, the Evangelicals who had record turnout for trump voted seemingly only for this issue so I guess this is show of democracy in action, as worrying as it is.

But yeah, I understand if someone really thinks the baby is alive that they'd wanna advocate for this, I just don't think they understand that they're not really gonna have their desired effect. There will always be irresponsible and promiscuous people out there and you can't legislate that away.

Also, this has a pro-corporate side to this, cause now wise women will just make sure to take a pregnancy test every 6 weeks or less to be on the safe side, so the companies that make those will see more profit.

Finally, lots of women also voted for those people in government, so it's them too trying to control other women's bodies based on their morality. It's not a sex issue, it's a forcing your values down people's throats issue. I guess this is how the conservatives felt when gay marriage was legalized or something.

 

[Trunkage]

I'll just stick this in here: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/fox-news-poll-voters-split-on-abortion-but-majority-wants-roe-v-wade-to-endure

Even Fox News listeners are only 21% against Roe v Wade when they know not much about the law. 6% when provided with details. So Silentpony might be right. But then I haven't seen Republicans go against any of the silliness that comes from this Administration and what it encourages over the last 2 years. You won't get change unless Republicans change their minds (similar to Nixon being impeached by his own party, it would never have happened if it was only Dems.)

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

It's not a sex issue, it's a forcing your values down people's throats issue. I guess this is how the conservatives felt when gay marriage was legalized or something.

BS. Legalizing gay marriage does not force people who are not gay to be gay and marry people of the same sex. This is forcing women to have no say over their own bodies. Women can be raped and they will be forced to give birth. Women will die due to this. Who is dying from gay marriage? If this is not a sex issue, name the men who will die as a result of this? To make it worse, Alabama is one of the states with a higher maternal mortality rate already so this will only make a bad situation worse. Women's bodies, health and lives are forever changed by giving birth.

This is both an issue of removing women's control over their own bodies and one of forcing one's religious beliefs onto others. Gay marriage does neither, as they are not forcing people to be gay and go get married themselves, accepting that others do so has no bearing on the lives and freedom of the people who disagree with it. Here, they are forcing women who had no say in being raped to not only have no say in what happened to them then, but also to have no say to what happens to them afterwards and being forced to risk their health and lives forever changing their bodies to accommodate the whims of religious fanatics. No where near comparable to any other laws that exist.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

So this'll be struck down like immediately. Federal Law trumps State law every time.

The reason they are doing this is because currently the courts are conservative with possibly no swing vote. Kennedy was the swing vote on abortion before but now that we have two trump appointees, there is a good chance that they will vote to overturn the federal abortion law. This is why they are pulling this, because they are sure the court will side with them and abortion will be outlawed nationwide.

Oh I know. And they'll give it their best shot. But the blowback if it does succeed will be monstrous for Republicans. Like losing the 2020 election, and Congress and having all of Trump's supreme court nominees impeached(which yes you can impeach them) and having a Dem president throw on new judges and a new law passed, challenged and affirmed by the courts with 6 months.

I really doubt that would happen. The american public would need to be more out for blood before we would impeach a judge or there would have to be hard evidence of a crime committed by one of them. It would be bad for republicans, but potentially not as bad as you would think, their base is almost single issue about abortion and they can make enough sounds so people think they will do something about other things. I mean look at how many "fiscally conservative" people vote republican despite the fact they always balloon the debt and will never lessen military spending. Plus, democrats tend to like to play by the rules so while a minority would be down for trying to impeach, the majority probably wouldn't be.

that is one thing dems do that's starting to piss me off. We live in a post-rules world right now. People are openly ignoring subpoenas, and Nancy Pelosi is out there thinking she might hold them in contempt of congress. No girl, that shit is straight up illegal! You can't ignore a subpoena! Get the DC police to go arrest them and jail them until they agree to adhere to the summons.

One probable reason she is hesitant is because this will push things to the breaking point, its entirely possible that while the law is on congresses side, they don't have any method to actually enforce it. Like the Justice Department is trumps, no ifs ands or buts, so they can't be relied upon to do anything congress wants and the republicans are also trumps. I'm not sure what he could do to get them to turn on him and the supreme court is... well not trumps but certainly conservative and would probably back him. The worry is that congress will push as hard as they can and we will find out just how broken our system is if they are actually incapable of doing anything. I think that actually might be the full downfall of the US government.

To quote Sulu, "Fly her apart then!"
What use do we have in people to protect the constitution when they ignore attacks on the constitution because it might endanger the constitution?
Trump Jr ignores Subpoenas and we let it slide. Trump sr ignores the electoral college and we let it slide.
Pelosi needs to take a hint from Picard and say 'This far, no further' force a supreme court decision. Have judges on record saying a president can ignore an impeachment, can ignore an arrest warrant, can nuke LA without consequences.
Push Trump supporters to their absolute edge. Lets see how far is too far. Lets see if Alabama is willing to sacrifice Congress for Abortion, or risk war with Illinois for abortion law.
Play chicken with them, see how far their conviction goes when Congress dismantles the Alabama national guard and closes all borders.

 

[Trunkage]

It's not a sex issue, it's a forcing your values down people's throats issue. I guess this is how the conservatives felt when gay marriage was legalized or something.

BS. Legalizing gay marriage does not force people who are not gay to be gay and marry people of the same sex. This is forcing women to have no say over their own bodies. Women can be raped and they will be forced to give birth. Women will die due to this. who is dying from gay marriage? If this is not a sex issue, name the men who will die as a result of this? To make it worse, Alabama is one of the states with a higher material mortality rate already so this will only make a bad situation worse. Women's bodies, health and lives are forever changed by giving birth.

This is both an issue of removing women's control over their own bodies and one of forcing one's religious beliefs onto others. Gay marriage does neither, as they are not forcing people to be gay and go get married themselves, accepting that others do so has no bearing on the lives and freedom of the people who disagree with it. Here, they are forcing women who had no say in being raped to not only have no say in what happened to them then, but also to have no say to what happens to them afterwards and being forced to risk their health and lives forever changing their bodies to accommodate the whims of religious fanatics. No where near comparable to any other laws that exist.

But someone getting married affects my marriage! How could I love my partner after someone else getting married.

We could just follow the Stefan Molenyuex doctrine. Bad men in society are the fault of women having babies with bad men. Becuase, it could never be the fault of bad men. It's a woman problem. (I have a friend who, after a nice relationship of 6 years, was suddenly lock in a house, striped naked, tied up and raped multiple times by her boyfriend. He's a bad man, but, until that week, everyone thought he was good. Molylenuex's rationality breaks down when you realise that bad men usually pretend to be good to get away with this stuff. In Molyenuex's world, it was her fault. But I couldn't tell he was bad, neither did she.) But, then a common trait of bad men is not taking responsibility for their own issues

Anyway, I'm sympathetic to foetus' rights. I don't know how or why they should supersede the mother rights, especially all the time. I'd be willing to say there is a point where more stringent requirements for abortions. 6 weeks is not that time. We have a requirement in my state where you need permission from two doctors to do an abortion in the third trimester. So it becomes more of a medical necessity rather than choice like in the first two trimesters. I'm happy with this as most of the time the mother has the stronger right, but transfers to the foetus later to recognise that it should supercede as some stage. It's not perfect, but all rights conflict have similar problems. Either one person is dominate, effecting the other negatively or we could try to share.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

It's not a sex issue, it's a forcing your values down people's throats issue. I guess this is how the conservatives felt when gay marriage was legalized or something.

BS. Legalizing gay marriage does not force people who are not gay to be gay and marry people of the same sex. This is forcing women to have no say over their own bodies. Women can be raped and they will be forced to give birth. Women will die due to this. Who is dying from gay marriage? If this is not a sex issue, name the men who will die as a result of this? To make it worse, Alabama is one of the states with a higher maternal mortality rate already so this will only make a bad situation worse. Women's bodies, health and lives are forever changed by giving birth.

This is both an issue of removing women's control over their own bodies and one of forcing one's religious beliefs onto others. Gay marriage does neither, as they are not forcing people to be gay and go get married themselves, accepting that others do so has no bearing on the lives and freedom of the people who disagree with it. Here, they are forcing women who had no say in being raped to not only have no say in what happened to them then, but also to have no say to what happens to them afterwards and being forced to risk their health and lives forever changing their bodies to accommodate the whims of religious fanatics. No where near comparable to any other laws that exist.

That's not really the argument though is it. The thing they have against gay marriage isn't that people will be forced to get gay married, it's that it fundamentally alters/destroys/whatever the institution of marriage and forces people to live with such a reality. It's kind of apples an oranges but it is a concern about values so just because it's a different sort of concern doesn't make it not about values.


Basically, the forcing is in having to live in a society which treats gay married folks the same as normal couples, which to those people indeed feels like oppression in the same way, as silly as it may seem to us.


First you gotta understand the other side, then dialogue can begin. We gain nothing from constructing straw-men and refusing to see how people actually think about these things. How we feel and whether or not we disagree with them is something that enters the discourse AFTER this step.


And again, a lot of women voted for those people too, so they can't really exercise power in removing their own power, cause even if that action is implemented it was partially they who implemented it. It's kinda like willingly becoming a slave out of your own volition and being free to sign away your freedoms...kinda like marriage, in fact!