[Politics]How long until we eat the rich?

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
Never. They keep managing to manipulate to general populus into dividing each other into tribes so that they never turn on their puppet masters. Its especially obvious these days with the blacks vs whites vs gays vs men vs women vs trans vs pro-Trump vs anti-Trump vs immigrants vs muslims vs christians vs jews vs nazis vs fat people vs thin people vs socialists vs conservatives vs democrats vs Europe vs Brexit vs Remain vs Isreal vs Palastine vs ISIS vs Russia vs China.

It utterly baffles me how people will buy into and even DEFEND corporations because Apples twitter PR bot once said "Nazis are pretty bad guys. Buy this limited edition rainbow striped iPhone only $699.99" and think that they're still raging against the machine.
I will never understand why people buy any apple products period. Even if people are not aware that they had horrendous working conditions even by China's standards and failed numerous inspections, the fact they tried to tell people what they can and cannot put on their devices and who can and cannot repair them should have been more than enough for people to tell them to shove off.
 

Neurotic Void Melody

Bound to escape
Legacy
Jul 15, 2013
4,953
6
13
nought against cannibalism here, but I do think using their cells for sustenance is probably giving them too much credit. if someone killed and ate me, I'd be saying "well, at least they didn't hate me entirely." except being totally dead, it wouldn't be said, it would be subtly whispered down some asshole's corridor at night-time in a newfound mission to haunt people into insanity

it'd be much preferred to abandon them all on a tiny island to fend for themselves, so they cannibalise each other for our own entertainment while we eat all their tasty food instead
 

generals3

New member
Mar 25, 2009
1,198
0
0
Lil devils x said:
First of all, no the wealthy do not work harder than most people. Most people work harder than the wealthy. Second, Most wealthy gain their money by taking part of what other people should have earned rather than doing the work themselves. They earn money from other's work so that they do not have to do the work themselves. By underpaying people for their work, they essentially create a siphon draining the wealth from those households, communities and cities where these people live and work and accumulate it into fewer and fewer hands. The CEO taking financial risks is not any riskier than the average person taking out a mortgage or putting a lien on their car or home to be able to survive. Although it involves less money due to them having less money, it is a higher risk because if it doesn't work out they can lose everything and become Homeless, starving and destitute if things do not work out for them. The CEO usually has enough money put back that they would be considered wealthy regardless if their risks flop, they will still not lose their ability to provide food, shelter or transportation for themselves. The risks that the poor take every day are MORE than those that are taken by the wealthy due to what is at stake if they lose.

People also tend to forget that even though Bill Gates tries to do some nice things now, when he was getting started he screwed people over, fired them and stole their work, took credit for their work and was taken to court repeatedly for his malignant actions. Years ago, when discussing Bill Gates with an old programmer father of a friend, I too though that the "cleaned up version" of the " Bill Gates Story" was reality, then he proceeded to show me numerous documents that told the truth about what happened. Bill Gates harmed the people responsible for his success to become successful himself. The vast majority of the time, for someone to breach the financial barriers to become successful, they are screwing people over and taking from them to be able to get to that point. It is extremely difficult for people to gain the capital needed to break the barrier to be successful without taking it from someone else.
First of all, nobody said "wealthy people" work harder than... That would be an absurd statement because being "wealthy" doesn't say anything about your occupation. Which was entirely my point, you can't just lump "wealthy" people together as one monolithic and parasitic group. This said, top corporate executives do work more than your average worker, a lot more.

Secondly wealthy people being a very diverse group also means their source of income is diverse. A succesful entrepreneur who sold his company for a billion didn't become a billionaire from syphoning wealth from his employees. He became one by finding someone or a company willing to give him that money in exchange for his company. A rich actor doesn't get to decide who is paid what in the movie industry and can hardly be blamed for a company willing to pay him millions at the expense of the technical staff. Soccer players also earn way too much money, but not by purposely syphoning anything from anyone.

As for risk, it depends to which type of wealthy person you compare it. A CEO shouldn't be given extra remuneration based on the risk he takes for himself, that's an absurd notion some very pro-rich people use. Golden parachutes have pretty much rendered those jobs financially riskless. The risk however lies with the company. A simple employee making a mistake is unlikely to cause the company a lot of harm, a wrong strategic decision can have catastrophic results. Hence the idea a company has to attract "the best of the best" and be willing to pay the money for it. But as I doubt the skills & competences of CEO's have drastically increased the past hundred years I'm going to assume they're currently extremely overvalued and paid too much for what they offer. On the other hand an investor does risk more than an average employee. Not only does an investor risk not earning anything in the future but he also puts all the invested wealth at risk. Employees merely risk future income. You may say that the lost wealth will harm the investor less, perhaps, but the absolute risk is still much higher. This is also why many low/middle income households are not investing a lot on the stock market, they're not willing to take that extra risk.

As for Bill Gates, I don't doubt he has done some unethical things during his careers to get where he is now. But it doesn't change that microsoft is a company that provides software widely used and useful and has created value for millions of people and probably billions indirectly.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
Legacy
Mar 8, 2011
8,411
16
23
People don't even want to hold the police responsible for their actions. Hell, people dont even want to hold Nazis responsible for their actions.

Most people are shelfish shills who dont give a fuck about anyone. The rest of us are screwed.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
generals3 said:
Lil devils x said:
First of all, no the wealthy do not work harder than most people. Most people work harder than the wealthy. Second, Most wealthy gain their money by taking part of what other people should have earned rather than doing the work themselves. They earn money from other's work so that they do not have to do the work themselves. By underpaying people for their work, they essentially create a siphon draining the wealth from those households, communities and cities where these people live and work and accumulate it into fewer and fewer hands. The CEO taking financial risks is not any riskier than the average person taking out a mortgage or putting a lien on their car or home to be able to survive. Although it involves less money due to them having less money, it is a higher risk because if it doesn't work out they can lose everything and become Homeless, starving and destitute if things do not work out for them. The CEO usually has enough money put back that they would be considered wealthy regardless if their risks flop, they will still not lose their ability to provide food, shelter or transportation for themselves. The risks that the poor take every day are MORE than those that are taken by the wealthy due to what is at stake if they lose.

People also tend to forget that even though Bill Gates tries to do some nice things now, when he was getting started he screwed people over, fired them and stole their work, took credit for their work and was taken to court repeatedly for his malignant actions. Years ago, when discussing Bill Gates with an old programmer father of a friend, I too though that the "cleaned up version" of the " Bill Gates Story" was reality, then he proceeded to show me numerous documents that told the truth about what happened. Bill Gates harmed the people responsible for his success to become successful himself. The vast majority of the time, for someone to breach the financial barriers to become successful, they are screwing people over and taking from them to be able to get to that point. It is extremely difficult for people to gain the capital needed to break the barrier to be successful without taking it from someone else.
First of all, nobody said "wealthy people" work harder than... That would be an absurd statement because being "wealthy" doesn't say anything about your occupation. Which was entirely my point, you can't just lump "wealthy" people together as one monolithic and parasitic group. This said, top corporate executives do work more than your average worker, a lot more.

Secondly wealthy people being a very diverse group also means their source of income is diverse. A succesful entrepreneur who sold his company for a billion didn't become a billionaire from syphoning wealth from his employees. He became one by finding someone or a company willing to give him that money in exchange for his company. A rich actor doesn't get to decide who is paid what in the movie industry and can hardly be blamed for a company willing to pay him millions at the expense of the technical staff. Soccer players also earn way too much money, but not by purposely syphoning anything from anyone.

As for risk, it depends to which type of wealthy person you compare it. A CEO shouldn't be given extra remuneration based on the risk he takes for himself, that's an absurd notion some very pro-rich people use. Golden parachutes have pretty much rendered those jobs financially riskless. The risk however lies with the company. A simple employee making a mistake is unlikely to cause the company a lot of harm, a wrong strategic decision can have catastrophic results. Hence the idea a company has to attract "the best of the best" and be willing to pay the money for it. But as I doubt the skills & competences of CEO's have drastically increased the past hundred years I'm going to assume they're currently extremely overvalued and paid too much for what they offer. On the other hand an investor does risk more than an average employee. Not only does an investor risk not earning anything in the future but he also puts all the invested wealth at risk. Employees merely risk future income. You may say that the lost wealth will harm the investor less, perhaps, but the absolute risk is still much higher. This is also why many low/middle income households are not investing a lot on the stock market, they're not willing to take that extra risk.

As for Bill Gates, I don't doubt he has done some unethical things during his careers to get where he is now. But it doesn't change that microsoft is a company that provides software widely used and useful and has created value for millions of people and probably billions indirectly.
I was addressing this quote above "They took risks, worked and still work more than you and I". the issue is that most of the working class and lower middle class actually have to work multiple jobs. They may only work 30 hours at one job, but then they work at another job for 30 hours as well. My father worked 3 jobs his entire life before he became paralyzed. I used to work 123hr work weeks working 2 full time jobs and a part time job, yes you read that right, I worked ridiculous hours at one time. In the US due to cost of living so greatly outpacing incomes people are forced to work multiple jobs to keep a roof over their heads.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2018/07/22/more-people-probably-work-multiple-jobs-than-the-government-realizes/#1ed1ad862a21
https://www.businessinsider.com/more-americans-working-more-than-one-job-to-make-ends-meet-2017-8

Due to their not being a social safety net in the US, and not having adequate housing protection, here in Texas, for example, people can become homeless within 24 hours of not paying their rent, so when an employee takes risks, they are not just losing future income, they can become homeless very easily. This does not just affect their present ability to provide shelter mind you, if they are evicted, they may not be able to find any other place to live even once they have income again because they will have that eviction on their record and you have to have good credit and recommendations from previous land lords in order to become qualified for a new apartment. So when an employee takes risks, they lose their ability to provide shelter for themselves and their family presently and for the foreseeable future. They can lose their home transportation, access to food and anything else they need to survive if things do not work out. The reason why so many lower income people do not invest in stocks is they do not have enough to make ends meet each month as it is so they would be using existing grocery money or money to pay utility bills or housing payments to do so. For them to have money to invest at all, they would have to put a lien on their car or home and their risk would be actual homelessness if it didn't work out. That is the reality that exists in the US. Lower income people in the US take risks every day in that they hope they do not get hurt because they would lose their home if they were put into the hospital.

I strongly disagree that the investor is risking more than the employee. Your typical investor is not worried about becoming homeless and having their family starve if their risk doesn't work out, the employee does. One missed paycheck can mean homelessness within 24 hours. How many investors have to deal with that compared to how many employees? The absolute risk is far higher for the employee, and anyone who depends on them getting that next paycheck. Hell many cities in the US do not even have homeless shelters or any help at all for those who become homeless, people are just expected to make do without being sheltered at that point. If an investor is not risking homelessness if things don't work out, they are not taking the greater risk.
 

stroopwafel

Elite Member
Jul 16, 2013
3,031
357
88
generals3 said:
But as I doubt the skills & competences of CEO's have drastically increased the past hundred years I'm going to assume they're currently extremely overvalued and paid too much for what they offer. On the other hand an investor does risk more than an average employee. Not only does an investor risk not earning anything in the future but he also puts all the invested wealth at risk. Employees merely risk future income. You may say that the lost wealth will harm the investor less, perhaps, but the absolute risk is still much higher. This is also why many low/middle income households are not investing a lot on the stock market, they're not willing to take that extra risk.
Large shareholders like investment firms, pension funds, foreign investors or private equity put tremendous pressure on CEOs to bump short term stock price so the 'strategy' of most CEOs is usually no more than cutting costs, selling parts of the company, undercutting suppliers, laying people off, outsourcing most of their activities and saving on personnel costs. Mostly corporations are like an oil tanker for short term gain. The shareholders want immediate share increase and high dividend rates and the corporate fat cat wants his bonus that is usually linked to the bump in stock price. And since most CEOs are ousted as soon as share price starts to drop it's no surprise where their priorities lie; in the short term ie cost reduction. Sure every once in a blue moon there is this visionary talent like Steve Jobs but really they are the exception to the rule.

I'd say the risk between employees and investment firms isn't really comparable. Employees are dependent on the company for their income while investment firms calculate the risk and still have billions of dollars in reserve. When a company has to downsize for loss in share price my sympathy would go out more towards the average joe who gets laid off and now has trouble paying the mortgage than the Carlyle Group. Stock markets have also become so insulated it seems that they often don't even reflect the actual value of the company anymore, so investment firms can often just ride it out unlike small investors let alone employees.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
Legacy
Apr 1, 2009
15,198
4,052
118
Gender
Whatever, just wash your hands.
Saelune said:
People don't even want to hold the police responsible for their actions. Hell, people dont even want to hold Nazis responsible for their actions.

Most people are shelfish shills who dont give a fuck about anyone. The rest of us are screwed.
Weirdly enough though we seem to love to hold black people, women and muslims responsible for their behavior and the behavior of others who seem to believe similar things.
 

Silvanus

Elite Member
Legacy
Jan 15, 2013
12,462
6,526
118
Country
United Kingdom
Kwak said:
Never. We all get just enough compensation being part of their system to survive in relative comfort so we go along with it.
So presumably when that stops being the case.
Do we? Last I checked there was a global poverty epidemic.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
We never will because thanks to our new 'Always be happy, embrace your best self' age, poor people don't view themselves as poor, but as temporarily inconvenienced rich. So we can't eat the rich because BillyBob is one scratch off away from being rich.
 

generals3

New member
Mar 25, 2009
1,198
0
0
Lil devils x said:
I was addressing this quote above "They took risks, worked and still work more than you and I". the issue is that most of the working class and lower middle class actually have to work multiple jobs. They may only work 30 hours at one job, but then they work at another job for 30 hours as well. My father worked 3 jobs his entire life before he became paralyzed. I used to work 123hr work weeks working 2 full time jobs and a part time job, yes you read that right, I worked ridiculous hours at one time. In the US due to cost of living so greatly outpacing incomes people are forced to work multiple jobs to keep a roof over their heads.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2018/07/22/more-people-probably-work-multiple-jobs-than-the-government-realizes/#1ed1ad862a21
https://www.businessinsider.com/more-americans-working-more-than-one-job-to-make-ends-meet-2017-8

Due to their not being a social safety net in the US, and not having adequate housing protection, here in Texas, for example, people can become homeless within 24 hours of not paying their rent, so when an employee takes risks, they are not just losing future income, they can become homeless very easily. This does not just affect their present ability to provide shelter mind you, if they are evicted, they may not be able to find any other place to live even once they have income again because they will have that eviction on their record and you have to have good credit and recommendations from previous land lords in order to become qualified for a new apartment. So when an employee takes risks, they lose their ability to provide shelter for themselves and their family presently and for the foreseeable future. They can lose their home transportation, access to food and anything else they need to survive if things do not work out. The reason why so many lower income people do not invest in stocks is they do not have enough to make ends meet each month as it is so they would be using existing grocery money or money to pay utility bills or housing payments to do so. For them to have money to invest at all, they would have to put a lien on their car or home and their risk would be actual homelessness if it didn't work out. That is the reality that exists in the US. Lower income people in the US take risks every day in that they hope they do not get hurt because they would lose their home if they were put into the hospital.

I strongly disagree that the investor is risking more than the employee. Your typical investor is not worried about becoming homeless and having their family starve if their risk doesn't work out, the employee does. One missed paycheck can mean homelessness within 24 hours. How many investors have to deal with that compared to how many employees? The absolute risk is far higher for the employee, and anyone who depends on them getting that next paycheck. Hell many cities in the US do not even have homeless shelters or any help at all for those who become homeless, people are just expected to make do without being sheltered at that point. If an investor is not risking homelessness if things don't work out, they are not taking the greater risk.
Well off course, that tendency of some/many Americans to take up multiple jobs can make it harder to compare hours worked. But here, in the developed nations that have a social security worthy of developed nations most people only have one job and work 9 to 5. And I'm sure plenty of Americans do too. Compare that to your average Executive who probably works from 8 to 8 and extra hours during the weekend and you have a higher average workload.

As for risk in my first post I was specifically referring to people like Bill gates or Jeff Besos, entrepreneurs who became rich by making a succesful company. These people did take a lot of risks, I know sufficient entrepreneurs to know it's a hard & stressful path with potentially nothing at the end of the road.

And as I said, I agree that the relative risk for low/medium income employees is larger than wealthy investor due to their lack of reserves to face a loss of revenue. But on an absolute term the only wealth they risk is future revenue. An investor can lose future revenue and invested capital. While a rich person would be less affected even by a larger loss you have to understand that from their point of view putting that money at risk deserves remuneration. Why would someone (or a fund/company) invest millions which they could potentially lose for marginal returns? But again, I don't think this justifies ludicrous returns on investments and that employees need to be exploited to fund that. A balance has to be found because both capital and labor are needed to create value. And Yes I would agree that based on current data the "investing class" has been receiving an unfairly large portion of the pie.
 

Saelune

Trump put kids in cages!
Legacy
Mar 8, 2011
8,411
16
23
Worgen said:
Saelune said:
People don't even want to hold the police responsible for their actions. Hell, people dont even want to hold Nazis responsible for their actions.

Most people are shelfish shills who dont give a fuck about anyone. The rest of us are screwed.
Weirdly enough though we seem to love to hold black people, women and muslims responsible for their behavior and the behavior of others who seem to believe similar things.
'Sexism and racism is a myth; also everyone is sexist and racist against white men!'


(Right-wing) Christian: 'Islam oppresses gays and women; also gays shouldnt get married and women should do what men tell them'.
 

CheetoDust_v1legacy

New member
Jun 10, 2017
88
0
0
Silvanus said:
Kwak said:
Never. We all get just enough compensation being part of their system to survive in relative comfort so we go along with it.
So presumably when that stops being the case.
Do we? Last I checked there was a global poverty epidemic.
Yes but it's other people who are poor and they're only poor because they don't work as hard as I do. And also it's the Poor's fault that there's poor people because poor people keep doing things like claiming the Dole and needing shelter. So if I ever do go poor it's not my fault because if I ever had to engage with social services it's because I really needed to but everyone else on it is just sponging.
 

CaitSeith

Formely Gone Gonzo
Legacy
Jun 30, 2014
5,374
381
88
bluegate said:
Rich people keep paying off the people in power, all the poor people in America live under the delusion that one day they'll be rich too ( they won't ), so they keep putting up with crap because one day they'll be on top and can deal out the crap ( spoiler: they'll die a "poor" person ).
Silentpony said:
We never will because thanks to our new 'Always be happy, embrace your best self' age, poor people don't view themselves as poor, but as temporarily inconvenienced rich. So we can't eat the rich because BillyBob is one scratch off away from being rich.
That's the optimist way to see it. But really a lot of poor people in America think being poor is their place, an inescapable existence they had the bad luck to be born into. But are they happy with it? Before the rich at least tried to make themselves look philanthropic, and promote a more humanitarian view of capitalism, one that appeared to have social awareness. The first sign of the end of that facade was when pensions for life for retired blue-collar workers disappeared or were replaced by 401k.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,398
6,661
118
generals3 said:
As for risk in my first post I was specifically referring to people like Bill gates or Jeff Besos, entrepreneurs who became rich by making a succesful company. These people did take a lot of risks, I know sufficient entrepreneurs to know it's a hard & stressful path with potentially nothing at the end of the road.
Yes and no.

There's some truth in the idea that these guys would never have lost everything. At worst, Gates and Bezos would have just had to get a day job like the rest of us, and no doubt done fine. They work on a very different order of risk from your average modestly paid employee. Bezos and Gates were affluent, albeit hardly super-rich, before they started their companies.

Bezos had a top degree from a top university, and had held high level management positions prior to Amazon. He could have gone back to that had it failed. He started Amazon with hundreds of thousands of dollars from his parents (how many people have that sort of backing?) and plenty other investors who took a big chunk of the risk. Gates had wealthy parents and was expensively educated, likewise got into a top university (although did not complete his degree), etc. Had MS failed, he still had plenty to fall back on and every opportunity for a very strong career anyway (plus his parents' wealth to fall back on).

The thing about investors, certainly at the higher end, is they invest their spare money. They don't mortgage their houses, empty their savings: this is a completely different order of risk we have to consider when we assess them compared to the masses.
 

Agema

Do everything and feel nothing
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,398
6,661
118
Silentpony said:
We never will because thanks to our new 'Always be happy, embrace your best self' age, poor people don't view themselves as poor, but as temporarily inconvenienced rich. So we can't eat the rich because BillyBob is one scratch off away from being rich.
Indeed. Wealth inequality is politically supportable for two reasons: firstly, that enough of the middle classes feel closer to the rich than the poor such that they'll align with the former, and secondly the perception that anyone can "make it".

If the lower middle sink towards the working classes, and if people start to realise social mobility isn't what it should be, there will be ructions.
 

Lil devils x_v1legacy

More Lego Goats Please!
May 17, 2011
2,728
0
0
Specter Von Baren said:
So are you guys going to actually discuss an actual solution or is this just a masturbation thread?
What solution? How is any solution even remotely possible as long as the wealthy hold all of the power and resources? $= voice. When the wealthy have all the $, only their voice is heard. When we have people electing the worst of the worst such as trump, why would anyone think it a remote possibility to actually be able to change this anytime soon? Sure we can fanaticize about having a congress full of Bernie Sanders, but in reality we can't even gain a majority of moderates let alone people who will actually change this.
 

Sonmi

Renowned Latin Lover
Jan 30, 2009
579
0
0
Specter Von Baren said:
So are you guys going to actually discuss an actual solution or is this just a masturbation thread?
What solution is there beyond increased redistribution, thing which will never be enough considering the amount of incrementalists we have on the "progressive" side, and the complete disdain for anything redistribution-related among conservatives?

Unless you can come up with a valid solution, we'll have to eat the rich