[Politics] Nazi China

stroopwafel

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Seanchaidh said:
International business hardly gives a shit about 'transparency' and the 'law state'; otherwise they would not have so heavily invested in China in the first place.
They invested in outsourcing for cheap labor, sure. As a source of economic growth it means these corporations only have leverage over their investments so it's a win-win situation(though obviously not for the U.S. trade deficit). Absolutely no corporation ever would want their main office in China though. They have zero protection from the litigation laws and due process in business or legal disputes that the law state in democracies provide. They are totally left to the whims of the regime and the total lack of transparancy in the civil service. Considering the interests at stake you can be guaranteed these are prioritized above all else. Even China knows this as HK is an international trading hub that do provide transparancy and due process in business litigation. They don't want to scare away it's investors by intervening militarily.

It is only a matter of time before centralized state capitalism will more obviously outcompete private capitalism, and for the same reason that centralized absolute monarchies outcompeted the decentralized feudalisms of the dark ages. It doesn't really matter what international business likes or dislikes, what matters is who controls the means of production and who can compel the labor.
Yeah, no. Centralized planning is too incompetent and ineffecient even to organize the bare essentials for just one country without resorting to brutal oppression and inflicting mass famine. That the global economy can somehow be 'outcompeted' by a central planner is just laughable.
 

Seanchaidh

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stroopwafel said:
Centralized planning is too incompetent and ineffecient even to organize the bare essentials for just one country without resorting to brutal oppression and inflicting mass famine.
If liberal elites actually believe this, they are doomed. I suspect they are more inclined to properly disaggregate in their historical analysis than their propaganda, though.
 

Agema

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stroopwafel said:
China and Russia might be better at suppressing social discontent and unrest so it appears less divided but it comes at the cost of a corrupted justice system and nepotism, which rule of law and transparancy is a democracy's biggest strength. It's why well-to-do Russians stash all their rubles in European real estate and why China won't subjugate Hong Kong militarily despite serious protests(independent courts + insurance companies). International business values transparency and the law state above all else so democracies will always have the competitive edge. You don't want a dictatorial regime confiscate all your possessions when you fall out of grace and have no independent court or justice system to fall back on.
Maybe suppressing social discontent and unrest will turn out to be more advantageous.

I would think of governance systems to an extent as a "horses for courses" issue. A liberal democracy might be most advantageous in certain situations and circumstances and an authoritarian dictatorship in others. Things like the move of liberal democracies to tight state control in WW2 illustrates the point, even if an extreme situation.

The laissez-faire capitalist wing of the West would assume that breaching laissez-faire capitalism is inefficient. However, then you look at the accusations against China of currency manipulation. If it really hurt China more than the West we'd shrug and move on. But the complaints clearly indicate that selectively not playing by the rules works. Similarly, China "cheating" by dumping cheap steel in a construction slump has brought the British steel industry to its knees. Maybe it is inefficient for China... but it also suggests they can just kill competitors. And when the steel industry picks up again, that's less competitors for China. That "inefficiency" sounds like it might be worth it, long term.

We could look at Trump blundering around on the world stage potentially undermining US power and influence, or the British Brexit vote, both democratic results arguably relying in no small part on campaigns of lies, bullshit, self-harm born of social discontent, and so on. What if that's where liberal democracy is going in the internet era? Ill-informed, fractured, echo chamber electorates lashing out at the wrong targets and voting their states into bad policy and increasing disrepair. Perhaps these are all problems a more "carefully managed" state could avoid. You might validly note problems with the likes of Russia and China, but a more positive example might be Singapore which is well along the same sorts of lines. China and Russia might erase many of those problems whilst keeping their authoritarian heart.

It all sounds worryingly Francis Fukuyama to just assume liberal democracy is the best and has won and end of debate until the human race meets it's end. Perhaps, with the relative decline of the West, we're living through and looking at the end of liberal democracy's primacy. Because liberal democracies still have the edge from their prior development, it gives an illusion of its superiority, even as the cracks are becoming more and more evident. Much like for instance the Romans believed their empire - with all its wealth, culture, cities and sophistication - would last forever even as it was decayed inside to the point that the barbarians were about to swamp the borders and sweep it away.
 

stroopwafel

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Agema said:
I would think of governance systems to an extent as a "horses for courses" issue. A liberal democracy might be most advantageous in certain situations and circumstances and an authoritarian dictatorship in others. Things like the move of liberal democracies to tight state control in WW2 illustrates the point, even if an extreme situation.
That's more a militarization issue at a time of war. Ofcourse a society and economy changes then, but these could hardly be considered 'normal' circumstances.

The laissez-faire capitalist wing of the West would assume that breaching laissez-faire capitalism is inefficient. However, then you look at the accusations against China of currency manipulation. If it really hurt China more than the West we'd shrug and move on. But the complaints clearly indicate that selectively not playing by the rules works. Similarly, China "cheating" by dumping cheap steel in a construction slump has brought the British steel industry to its knees. Maybe it is inefficient for China... but it also suggests they can just kill competitors. And when the steel industry picks up again, that's less competitors for China. That "inefficiency" sounds like it might be worth it, long term.
Yeah, but that only shows how dependent every country is on the global economy and that one political system in that chain really isn't going to make much of a difference when the interests are so mutually beneficial. Sure, China might subsidize it's steel market to undercut it's British competitor but that is also an example why the Brexit was such a bad idea as the bargaining position will only get worse for them without the support of a powerful economic block. Even the U.S. is having a hard time getting concessions from the Chinese after increasing import tariffs on steel and aluminium. But it only shows how important China is both as a market and manufacturer. And who profits most from this? The western consumer. Cheap TVs, phones, computers, clothing and pretty much every consumer goods on the market. Only possible b/c capitalism unites the political systems and allows for the investments and long supply lines.

Every country will always try to manipulate the situation in their favor but with such mutual dependency no one would ever willingly want to escalate. It's why Chinese reaction to Trump's erratic behavior has always been measured and non-escalating.

We could look at Trump blundering around on the world stage potentially undermining US power and influence, or the British Brexit vote, both democratic results arguably relying in no small part on campaigns of lies, bullshit, self-harm born of social discontent, and so on. What if that's where liberal democracy is going in the internet era? Ill-informed, fractured, echo chamber electorates lashing out at the wrong targets and voting their states into bad policy and increasing disrepair. Perhaps these are all problems a more "carefully managed" state could avoid. You might validly note problems with the likes of Russia and China, but a more positive example might be Singapore which is well along the same sorts of lines. China and Russia might erase many of those problems whilst keeping their authoritarian heart.
Yeah, that could be but it's also possible countries themselves will disintegrate. To be honest, I think that's a more likely situation then the dissolution of post-nation state international capital and corporate enterprise. You can see a prelude to this in the U.S. The social decline and civil unrest has become political ammunition not to introduce policy to ''carefully manage'' it but only to aggravate it further. Why? Because the U.S. government serves the interests of corporate entities and their foreign shareholders, that is where there priorities lie. Similarly, in Russia the government serves Putin and his former KGB ilk. In China it's Xi and the communist party. Yet the strings to the puppet is the global economy. It's naive to believe international corporations haven't become more powerful than domestic governments at this point. Espescially in the distribution of wealth.

It all sounds worryingly Francis Fukuyama to just assume liberal democracy is the best and has won and end of debate until the human race meets it's end. Perhaps, with the relative decline of the West, we're living through and looking at the end of liberal democracy's primacy. Because liberal democracies still have the edge from their prior development, it gives an illusion of its superiority, even as the cracks are becoming more and more evident. Much like for instance the Romans believed their empire - with all its wealth, culture, cities and sophistication - would last forever even as it was decayed inside to the point that the barbarians were about to swamp the borders and sweep it away.
Not really, even Fukuyama came back on his 'end of history'. I never said liberal democracy is 'superior' but you can take a guess why everyone wants to live here. You don't really appreciate freedom until it's gone.
 

Seanchaidh

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stroopwafel said:
Not really, even Fukuyama came back on his 'end of history'. I never said liberal democracy is 'superior' but you can take a guess why everyone wants to live here. You don't really appreciate freedom until it's gone.
Yeah, I can't imagine any other reason than "freedom" that people might want to live in the 'liberal democracies' instead of elsewhere.



It's really mysterious.

https://news.antiwar.com/2019/08/07/us-seizes-cargo-ship-trying-to-deliver-food-to-venezuela/
https://therealnews.com/stories/north-korea-suspends-talks-with-south-korea-because-of-u-s-sanctions
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/02/capital-strike-regulations-lending-productivity-economy-banks-bailout

And it's totally weird that socialist countries would be kind of paranoid about dissent and foreign influence and devote huge portions of their economy to military readiness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War
https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list