sighSaelune said:
I'm not seeing this going anywhere.
I still haven't said a single thing in defense of Nazis. But agree to disagree I guess. Peace.
[Politics] Nazis Attack LGBT Pride Parade
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I'm not seeing this going anywhere.
I still haven't said a single thing in defense of Nazis. But agree to disagree I guess. Peace.
Okay, once again, your second and third points are "well the Weimar didn't hard enough". To which, once again, I don't know what you're on about. Allow me to illustrate by playing devil's advocate one moment.Gethsemani said:
Let's talk about the first point, Hitler's trial [https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-1924-trial-of-adolf-hitler-that-made-the-nazi-party-a-household-name/]. An elaborate, sensationalist, global media circus enabled by the suspension of due process, trial by jury, and judicial review concocted for the sole purpose of giving Hitler a soap box for his ridiculous beliefs, that turned him from an international laughingstock to one of the most feared orators on the goddamn planet. A trial that was such a farce, the pro-Nazi lay judge panel had to be negotiated away from acquitting him outright.
Section 7, Article 105 of the Weimar Constitution [https://www.zum.de/psm/weimar/weimar_vve.php#Seventh%20Chapter] was pretty goddamn clear on the constitutionality of such a trial. So, why didn't the Weimar government's enforce its constitutional authority? Might this be because, in the midst of economic, political, and international crises, and crippled by the Treaty of Versailles, civil unrest, and a military of dubious loyalty, the Weimar government was in no position to assert its authority over a secessionist state which proved itself a breeding ground for right-wing and nationalist extremism?
Here's where I take exception with the claims being pressed. Even taking them at face value assumes the Weimar government was strong enough to do "what had to be done" in the first place. Which, frankly, would have been nothing short of invading Bavaria, placing it under martial law, and subjecting Bavarian political leadership to military tribunal. Exactly how well do you think the Reichswehr and Freikorps would have responded to that order?
I agree, but here's the problem. If you're looking at 1933, 1932, or even far back as 1929, you're looking at effects, not causes. The nails were in that coffin when the French occupied the Ruhr valley.
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So that she can scream at everyone that supporting any candidates other than Elizabeth Warren is giving your vote to Trump and that anyone who doesn't support her is a double secret republican shill.Marik2 said:
For me, I understand this thread is poisonous to a certain mindset. It's easy to get into a position where you want to make personal attacks. Telling someone to shut up is rude, but compared to what else Saelune would say during the resulting pages this might remain open, I don't think that was really necessary. I'm sure Saelune would dig a hole to deep eventually. Things are going to get worse in the lead up to 2020. Desperation makes strange bed fellows. We'll hit peak Saelune FAR before the election, and she'll be banned long before that tire fire even properly gets lit.Marik2 said:
All considered. I'm sure there will be a lot of bans along the way.
Edit: https://twitter.com/arisroussinos/status/1142679526176112640
So, this was brought to my attention. And with comments like this:
Sorry, but you insisted on shoving gay shit in my kids' faces, so this is now extermination war.Btw, the Nazi movement was the first LGBT movement and started in gay bars. Horst Wessel predates Stonewall by like 30 years.
— Orb-Weaver (@No2Sovereignty) June 23, 2019 [https://twitter.com/No2Sovereignty/status/1142878094337794048?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw]
Another day, another Nazi.
What about people like me who are going to vote for Trump anyways?Dirty Hipsters said:
Is he talking about Ernst R?hm and the leadership of the SA? Because to describe them as the first LGBT movement is a bit... inaccurate. That would also make Horst-Wessel-Lied a gay pride song.Armadox said:
I think your looking at only point of reference for suppression and its effectiveness. Take another form, the Red Scares in America. This has suppressed conversation in America so much that even today, 100 years on, any criticism of Capitalism is seen as Communism/ Socialism. The Overton window is significantly shifted so much that there is no Left party in America.Eacaraxe said:
You could claim that Communists are still somewhat around. Some people call themselves Communist now, but it's more likely they call themselves Marxists becuase of the obvious link terrible Lenin-Stalin version of Communionism, This Marxism (pro Free speech, markets, worried more about owners being the employees which is rather entrepreneurial) is more palatable to the conservatives and they can still claim that they are for top down economics (somewhat true, some are very anti-government) becuase stereotyping.
It was worth a suspension for anyone.Marik2 said:
Telling someone it's their fault that there are Nazis and, let's be honest, being incapable of having a discussion without resorting to personal attacks when the topic being discussed has nuances are good grounds for suspension. Saelune has a bad habit of attacking would-be-allies because they have a differing opinion in how to combat their shared foe.
They didn't try hard enough, that's a simple fact. They didn't even try hard enough to actually enforce court mandated punishments for some of the worst crimes in the German penal code. What you're talking about afterwards is the inherent and inescapable political instability of the Weimar Republic, which was a democracy forced onto a people who didn't want a democracy and run by the same aristocratic elite that had previously been the cause of Germany's belligerent foreign diplomacy and nascent ambitions to be a superpower. The people didn't want a democratic system, as seen by how many kept voting for nationalists, fascists and communists, and the old aristocracy kept doing their thing irregardless. That Weimar was forced to adopt an unwanted system of government and then quell the (totally expected) resistance to it without any support from either France, the UK or USA was where the political impotence and incompetence of the Weimar Republic was cemented, in that the Freikorp uprisings of 1919 and 1920 clearly showed that the Republic lacked the necessary political clout and violence capital to keep the constituent German states in line.Eacaraxe said:
That, however, should not be confused with the leniency with which the Republic treated the extreme right wing of its politics. Hitler and the NSDAP got off easy because the hardcore conservative, nationalist aristocrats that were the de facto power of the Weimar Republic wanted a return to nationalistic policies and saw the NSDAP and other nationalist and fascist parties as useful tools to keep the communists in check (both by drawing malcontents away from communists and by using their paramilitary branches to fight and intimidate communists) and because they absolutely failed to see the threat that these violent, right wing extremists posed.
The root cause of the NSDAP's rise to power was always that the German establishment didn't see them as a political threat and as a much preferable alternative then Communism. This led to German politicians underestimating the NSDAP and not handling it with the diligence and concern it merited. As I said, the thing we can learn from the rise of the NSDAP is to never condone or compromise with extremists, even if those extremists are nominally are on our side and could, maybe, be politically useful to us. Much else is hard to learn, because the political system and landscape of the Weimar Republic is very much unlike any modern day Western democracy.
Your talking an awful lot about how the Third Reich came to be yet not how it ended. Because we both know what brought it down: Relentless violence, and if there is one thing to be lamented is that this violence neither came soon, nor hard enough. The reason I have the privilege to live in a civilized country, in a country where human rights are acknowledged and enforced, is because the Soviet Union, the United States and a few other nations did us the favour of killing more than 4 Million Nazis. If they had done so earlier there may have never been a Holocaust and the countless crimes of the Fascist Party, not only against the people it waged war against but against its own people, may have never been commited. Likewise, had there been a more thorough purge in the aftermath of World War 2, ex party member Georg Kiesinger may have never been chancellor of Germany, industrialists like Otto Ambros who oversaw forced labour and extermination in Ausschwitz may have not lived out their lives as trusted economic advisors of the West German government and the granddaughter of Nazi Germany's Minister of Finance would not have a seat in the German parliament right now, carrying on the legacy of the fascist death cult that used to rule our country with an iron fist.Eacaraxe said:
I don't know if the government of the Weimar Republic could have put a quick end to the Nazi Party but that doesn't mean that the violence used against it was wrong, but merely that it was insufficient.
If we are going to encourage vigilante violence against certain political groups of people, are we going to make the distinction trough self-affiliation (Yes, I am a nazi, here be my swastika) or by appointed affiliation (He is nazi, because (legally defined requirement of proof]?
I am of the belief that Saelune is a direct descendant of Cato the Younger.Marik2 said:
In terms of her political and moral rigidness.
Demanding an act that will lead to the fall of a republic and the introduction of imperial rule?Samtemdo8 said:
Oh, that sounds like fun! I wonder who I'm a direct descendant of. Probably Lepidus.Samtemdo8 said:
