[Politics] Nazis Attack LGBT Pride Parade
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This seems likely.Agema said:
This seems less likely, due to biology. Perhaps if either Adam or Steve is a trans man then I might be possible, yes?trunkage said:
Also I've been meaning to watch HBO's Rome
Is it good?
Some of the time skips can be a bit jarring, and its best to recognize that its a dramatization, so some of the characters are (almost) entirely fictional. But it's a great series and you'll fall in love with Titus Pullo.CM156 said:
This statement is irreconcilable with this statement,Gethsemani said:
because the Weimar Republic was either capable of suppressing far-right nationalism in Bavaria, or it wasn't. For the Weimar Republic to be on the hook for failure of "trying hard enough", one has to make the case they were capable of acting decisively in the first place. Here, you cede it wasn't.
It is also irreconcilable with this statement,
because here you cede many of those in power, particularly among the German military, were also far-right, ultra-nationalist, rabidly anti-semitic, extremists who enabled Nazism as opposed to trying to stop it. This is doublethink of the highest order. And, yet again, you're looking six years too late and proposing some magical solution would have made everything better had it underpants gnomed into existence.
This is like looking at corpses and assorted body parts at the site of an airplane crash, and saying "well if they had their oxygen masks on they might have lived".
On the other hand, this never would have happened,PsychedelicDiamond said:
but I don't see too many people shedding tears over that. Sure as shit don't see any Antifa morons protesting any of the basically half the fucking city of Huntsville, AL, named after Wernher von Braun.
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It's pretty good, but it does have some budget issues. The entire city of Rome often times seems to be a couple of alleys, and there are a lot of battles that get cut-aways because they couldn't pay hundreds of extras for very long and CGI was harder to do and more expensive back in...2004ish?CM156 said:
I'd say yes. Their history is a bit loose, with some characters having importance in the story beyond the point where they'd died in real history, but the characters are fun and the story romps along in a colourful fashion. Pullo and Vorenus are a great double act, and most of the people playing real historical figures are having massive fun with it. It kind of a proto-Game of Thrones in a wayCM156 said:
Not really, no. Both statements, concerning the political instability and toothlessness of the Weimar Republic and the indifference to the radical politics and violence of the NSDAP, are totally reconcilable with the idea that the Weimar Republic didn't try hard enough to curb the NSDAP. All they needs to reconcile with each other, and which you seemed to have overlooked in your eagerness to find double think and logical fallacies in my argument, is the simple fact that the statement "they didn't try hard enough" is an ought statement (as in: they ought to have tried harder), whereas the remaining explanation posits why the Weimar Republic didn't try harder.Eacaraxe said:
Even if we work on the premise that I wasn't delivering an ought statement and was discussing the actual possibility of Weimar to act more decisively, it still is eminently reconcilable because the Republic choose to not act decisively (for various reasons, including the risk in a power play against a state as strong as Bavaria) and the conservative people in power choose to take a reconciling attitude towards the NSDAP. These are historical facts, but that does not mean that they couldn't have tried harder to curb the NSDAP. That lands us dangerously close to the pointless bickering of alt-history what-if's, but the ability to suppress the NSDAP and end Hitler's political career was always there, up until 1930 or so anyway, but wasn't used for various reasons.
We're having enough problems convincing people that literal slaving traitors shouldn't be celebrated. Trying to get people behind cancelling a converted evangelical Christian who help develop our ICBMs and put us on the moon is going to be several orders of magnitude more difficult.Eacaraxe said:On the other hand, this never would have happened,PsychedelicDiamond said:
but I don't see too many people shedding tears over that. Sure as shit don't see any Antifa morons protesting any of the basically half the fucking city of Huntsville, AL, named after Wernher von Braun.
Operation Paperclip sold our soul for rockets
Eacaraxe said:This statement is irreconcilable with this statement,Gethsemani said:
because the Weimar Republic was either capable of suppressing far-right nationalism in Bavaria, or it wasn't. For the Weimar Republic to be on the hook for failure of "trying hard enough", one has to make the case they were capable of acting decisively in the first place. Here, you cede it wasn't.
It is also irreconcilable with this statement,
because here you cede many of those in power, particularly among the German military, were also far-right, ultra-nationalist, rabidly anti-semitic, extremists who enabled Nazism as opposed to trying to stop it. This is doublethink of the highest order. And, yet again, you're looking six years too late and proposing some magical solution would have made everything better had it underpants gnomed into existence.
This is like looking at corpses and assorted body parts at the site of an airplane crash, and saying "well if they had their oxygen masks on they might have lived".
On the other hand, this never would have happened,PsychedelicDiamond said:
but I don't see too many people shedding tears over that. Sure as shit don't see any Antifa morons protesting any of the basically half the fucking city of Huntsville, AL, named after Wernher von Braun.[/spoilered]
According to the Germans I have discussed this with here, My S.O.'s family and friends (including those whose family's histories actually involved Nazi's themselves) is that you are incorrect in thinking that supressing the Nazi propaganda is what lead to Hitler's rise, from what they told me from their own family history and what they were taught in schools is that the government could not enforce reducing it by that point because it was already too widespread. It was too little too late and that the racism nd hatred had already been festering long before getting to that point. They acted too late and without enough enforcement. If they had acted sooner and with stronger enforcement, it would have not have been allowed to spread as badly as it had already. They should have addressed it with both large scale education and enforcement if they had actually wanted to make a difference, but that failed to happen in time.
For a modern comparison, let's take child molesters for example. People in general think very badly of child molesters and law enforcement usually takes this very seriously. We do not allow child molesters to promote child porn in the streets and would be arrested for even possessing such material. Websites that promote such when found are targeted heavily by the feds. We educate the general public on why this is bad and not tolerated in any way. Even in Prison, other criminals are not fond of child molesters and are treated harshly. If they treated Nazism, white nationalism and racism in general the same way as child molesters, we would have a hell of a lot less of it happening I would think and many more people would be less likely to try and promote such. It would effectively stop the spread and acceptance, in the same way that treating child molestation negatively has.
Police officers in the US would never think about openly joining child porn promotion groups on Facebook as they have openly joined racist extremist groups. This is due to how society treats the two very differently. How society treats racism is what has to change in order to change this long term. This can only be done via enforcement and education. That is what changed that changed the mindset of allowing grown men to marry 8 year old girls in the US and why this happens so much less now. If we want to reduce racism, treat it the same as we do selling children to sexual predators. We have far less child brides in the US than in the past because we outlawed it, enforced it and disparaged it making it no longer socially acceptable.
For a modern comparison, let's take child molesters for example. People in general think very badly of child molesters and law enforcement usually takes this very seriously. We do not allow child molesters to promote child porn in the streets and would be arrested for even possessing such material. Websites that promote such when found are targeted heavily by the feds. We educate the general public on why this is bad and not tolerated in any way. Even in Prison, other criminals are not fond of child molesters and are treated harshly. If they treated Nazism, white nationalism and racism in general the same way as child molesters, we would have a hell of a lot less of it happening I would think and many more people would be less likely to try and promote such. It would effectively stop the spread and acceptance, in the same way that treating child molestation negatively has.
Police officers in the US would never think about openly joining child porn promotion groups on Facebook as they have openly joined racist extremist groups. This is due to how society treats the two very differently. How society treats racism is what has to change in order to change this long term. This can only be done via enforcement and education. That is what changed that changed the mindset of allowing grown men to marry 8 year old girls in the US and why this happens so much less now. If we want to reduce racism, treat it the same as we do selling children to sexual predators. We have far less child brides in the US than in the past because we outlawed it, enforced it and disparaged it making it no longer socially acceptable.
I think it's just a bunch of years of mod leniency waning off. She's written plenty of stuff in the past which would warrant a suspension before, and got off with a slap on the wrist.Marik2 said:
Yes, really. Because all this boils down to two simple statements.Gethsemani said:
1. The policies effected were insufficient to stop the rise of the Nazi party.
2. The policies that would have been able to stop the rise of the Nazi party, were impossible to enact and enforce from economic, social, political, and military perspectives.
The narrative the Weimar Republic "didn't try hard enough", or "ought to have tried harder", or however you want to frame it, ignore the first point and attempt to misplace culpability for the second. It's the denial of the first with which I take exception, because the issue is that thought process leads to the exact wrong conclusions about the most effective response to contemporary right-wing extremism would be today. Which is because...
Lil devils x said:
Absent massive, systemic reform of our criminal justice system, what you suggest by comparing it to diddling would be literally the stupidest possible thing our society could possibly do. Surprise, prison gangs and violence are highly racialized, white supremacist prison gangs exist, and they're extensively connected to white nationalist and supremacist organizations outside bars. White prisoners and ex-cons are primo recruitment targets, thanks to racialized prison violence and institutional bias against ex-cons in society. What you suggest would make the problem immeasurably worse, because you'd be putting racists in environments where they could network instead of rehabilitate, and giving more prisoners more reasons to retreat to the safe confines of white supremacist gangs.
Yeah, the feds just nailed the AB's ass to the wall [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/feds-announce-massive-bust-aryan-brotherhood-crime-ring/story?id=63559060]. They also got nailed to the wall not for the stupid racial shit, but for being an organized crime syndicate. It's a case example of our criminal justice system actually working for a change. And there are over a hundred other white supremacist prison gangs out there with thousands of members ready to take the AB's crown, should this bust take the gang down once and for all.
Even sparing that, targeting people on the basis of political belief only serves to further radicalize, and drive extremists further underground where they're harder to count, harder to track, more likely to recruit, more likely to engage in political violence, and whose plots are harder to investigate and prosecute in a court of law. Least of all without blowback. We tried that shit in the '90s, and it caused OKC. I'd prefer dealing with the situation in a way that doesn't have a track record of leading to vans full of ANFO, thanks.
You are acting like systemic reform isn't already needed. The US prison system as already failed and Systemic reform has been called on by most of the presidential and congressional candidates as it is. There is no reason why we should continue to allow prison gangs to exist or allow predators access to prey within the prison system itself, as this is a core part of the problem preventing rehabilitation to even exist in the US system. Much change is already needed and has shown that other systems work much better and we should begin shifting to those systems immediately rather than just allow a failed system to get worse.Eacaraxe said:Yes, really. Because all this boils down to two simple statements.
1. The policies effected were insufficient to stop the rise of the Nazi party.
2. The policies that would have been able to stop the rise of the Nazi party, were impossible to enact and enforce from economic, social, political, and military perspectives.
The narrative the Weimar Republic "didn't try hard enough", or "ought to have tried harder", or however you want to frame it, ignore the first point and attempt to misplace culpability for the second. It's the denial of the first with which I take exception, because the issue is that thought process leads to the exact wrong conclusions about the most effective response to contemporary right-wing extremism would be today. Which is because...
Lil devils x said:
Absent massive, systemic reform of our criminal justice system, what you suggest by comparing it to diddling would be literally the stupidest possible thing our society could possibly do. Surprise, prison gangs and violence are highly racialized, white supremacist prison gangs exist, and they're extensively connected to white nationalist and supremacist organizations outside bars. White prisoners and ex-cons are primo recruitment targets, thanks to racialized prison violence and institutional bias against ex-cons in society. What you suggest would make the problem immeasurably worse, because you'd be putting racists in environments where they could network instead of rehabilitate, and giving more prisoners more reasons to retreat to the safe confines of white supremacist gangs.
Yeah, the feds just nailed the AB's ass to the wall [https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/feds-announce-massive-bust-aryan-brotherhood-crime-ring/story?id=63559060]. They also got nailed to the wall not for the stupid racial shit, but for being an organized crime syndicate. It's a case example of our criminal justice system actually working for a change. And there are over a hundred other white supremacist prison gangs out there with thousands of members ready to take the AB's crown, should this bust take the gang down once and for all.
Even sparing that, targeting people on the basis of political belief only serves to further radicalize, and drive extremists further underground where they're harder to count, harder to track, more likely to recruit, more likely to engage in political violence, and whose plots are harder to investigate and prosecute in a court of law. Least of all without blowback. We tried that shit in the '90s, and it caused OKC. I'd prefer dealing with the situation in a way that doesn't have a track record of leading to vans full of ANFO, thanks.
Yes, there are countries that have effectively banned hate speech and it has proven to reduce the amount of hate crimes and amount pf recruitment taking place overall. This has been proven to be an effective tool and does not lead to the hypothetical scenario of increased activity you laid out here. They never adequately bothered to address racism in the 90's, to suggest such is ignoring the facts. Never in our history, has the US adequately addressed racism. Doing very little as suggested in the 90's is not much better than doing nothing at all. They actually have to do something this time, with actual enforcement, not give lip service. That has never actually been done here.
Part of the problem here is you consider white nationalism to be a "political belief" rather than "incitement of violence and criminal behavior" that classification is part of the problem. At one time child molestation was legal and widespread with child brides. Once they changed it from being considered a "political and religious issue" to " abusive and criminal behavior" that changed. The same needs to happen here. Racism has no place on a political platform and should not be considered a political issue at all, it should be considered an abusive and criminal issue, thus solving the problem long term. Just as we had people fight being able to buy and sell child brides, to defend their sexual abuse you expect them to fight to remain racially abusive. That does not mean we should allow either the sex or race abuse to continue, no we change it and keep it changed long term. You somehow think racial abuse is some how harder to change than sexual abuse. It isn't. Sex abuse is actually far more difficult to change and we were able to reduce it. We can do this too.
You act as if everyone is going to start blowing everything up if they are forced to stop being racists. If it really is that bad, you would think you would see the urgency to have this stopped ASAP before it gets worse rather than allow it to continue over and over and over again.
AND BTW McVeigh was a militant worried they "were coming fer our gunz" all hyped up on right wing propaganda that caused that, not the restriction of it.. They were a direct result of the harms of allowing propaganda, not an example of restricting the propaganda being bad. You can thank the NRA for bringing us OKC, their propaganda is a huge part of the problem fueling not just gun violence, but violence because they are worried about people taking their guns. Waco was handled badly, but not because they were enforcing illegal firearms laws. They should have arrested the men in town when they had 6 different people reporting they had opportunities to do so. It is all about how they go about doing things, not just say "oh well it will be too much trouble to do it right".
You acknowledge this, yet you insist on putting the cart before the horse anyways...Lil devils x said:
Whatever you say. Let me spend thirty seconds on Google...
Yup, totally not a problem [https://www.dw.com/en/munich-shooter-liked-nazis-breivik-identified-as-aryan-says-report/a-39803749].
Not at all [https://www.europol.europa.eu/activities-services/main-reports/european-union-terrorism-situation-and-trend-report-te-sat-2016].
Right-wing extremism isn't on the rise in Europe, with all those meaty hate speech laws That Are Totally Working, at all [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006].
Crypto-fascist parties don't hold seats in the European Parliament, and Bundestag, at all [https://www.npr.org/2018/09/30/652284976/germanys-far-right-afd-party-now-polls-second]. Certainly not in France would they be a major contender in national politics [https://www.thedailybeast.com/who-the-hell-would-vote-for-marine-le-pen]. Austria, nothing to see here [https://www.dw.com/en/austrias-fp%C3%B6-freedom-party-a-turbulent-history/a-48789817]. Oh, let's not forget our favorite debtor of all Europe, Greece; definitely nothing there [https://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/europe/2018/04/future-greece-neo-fascist-golden-dawn-180412125831240.html].
Yup, hate speech laws work so well at curbing right-wing extremism, don't they?
That's because it is a political belief. Just because you find the ideology repulsive doesn't mean it isn't a political belief. Perhaps you should start taking this seriously?
Stop being myopic and partisan. My position is censorship and oppression is going to cause violent blowback, as it has repeatedly in the past and will continue to. Ergo, my prescriptive relief is to allow the idiots to peacefully assemble, hold politicians and law enforcement accountable for preserving the peace and interdicting violence as is their fucking job (like they didn't in Charlottesville), vociferously peaceably counter-protest and denounce black bloc bullshit, and get out the fucking vote.
No, McVeigh was a full-on Turner Diaries [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/how-the-turner-diaries-changed-white-nationalism/500039/]-worshiping lunatic. Gun rights was but one plank of a whole platform of crazy radicalized bullshit, and OKC was directly modeled after The Organization's bombing of the FBI headquarters to kickstart La Resistance. The whole thing was meticulously planned, beginning to end, right down to target selection, method [https://www.adl.org/education/resources/backgrounders/turner-diaries], even the date [https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution/battles-of-lexington-and-concord], as a targeted message and call to action.
It was done in retaliation for Ruby Ridge and Waco [https://www.history.com/news/how-ruby-ridge-and-waco-led-to-the-oklahoma-city-bombing]. Ruby Ridge being the result of a botched attempt by the ATF to flip Randy Weaver, and Waco being the result of botched opsec by ATF to serve a search warrant that culminated in a botched assault by the FBI because Janet Reno was afraid of political blowback rather than simply wait the Branch Davidians out. Gun rights was just the tip of that goddamned iceberg.
That's why you don't censor or oppress shit. It makes you too mush-minded to add two and fucking two when "the opposition" is up to something, what they're really after, and how to stop it. See, I read Turner Diaries after OKC, because I wanted to understand what the fuck happened; I also had to re-read excerpts of it in undergrad because I was taking a grad-level class on the psychology and methodology of terrorism.
The "problem" with this is there are a not-insignificant number of brain-dead idiots out there who, like right-wingers of yesteryear with the Communist Manifesto, think that reading Turner Diaries, or the mere presence of Turner Diaries on bookshelves, somehow magically turns people into Nazis. Or, even having a base level of insight into the psychology and methods of right-wing extremists, means one must by definition be a Nazi. I don't play ball with that bullshit, because I'm unwilling to willfully suspend my own intellect and education to satisfy the atavistic urges of modern-day Robespierre wannabes dead-set on an escalating cycle of violence that never has in the entirety of human history, and never will, break the way they think.
You show examples of lack of enforcement leading to increased activity when that is only proving the point that more enforcement in necessary. This proves you cannot even give them an inch or it becomes ineffective.Eacaraxe said:You acknowledge this, yet you insist on putting the cart before the horse anyways...Lil devils x said:
Whatever you say. Let me spend thirty seconds on Google...
Yup, totally not a problem [https://www.dw.com/en/munich-shooter-liked-nazis-breivik-identified-as-aryan-says-report/a-39803749].
Not at all [https://www.europol.europa.eu/activities-services/main-reports/european-union-terrorism-situation-and-trend-report-te-sat-2016].
Right-wing extremism isn't on the rise in Europe, with all those meaty hate speech laws That Are Totally Working, at all [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36130006].
Crypto-fascist parties don't hold seats in the European Parliament, and Bundestag, at all [https://www.npr.org/2018/09/30/652284976/germanys-far-right-afd-party-now-polls-second]. Certainly not in France would they be a major contender in national politics [https://www.thedailybeast.com/who-the-hell-would-vote-for-marine-le-pen]. Austria, nothing to see here [https://www.dw.com/en/austrias-fp%C3%B6-freedom-party-a-turbulent-history/a-48789817]. Oh, let's not forget our favorite debtor of all Europe, Greece; definitely nothing there [https://www.aljazeera.com/blogs/europe/2018/04/future-greece-neo-fascist-golden-dawn-180412125831240.html].
Yup, hate speech laws work so well at curbing right-wing extremism, don't they?
That's because it is a political belief. Just because you find the ideology repulsive doesn't mean it isn't a political belief. Perhaps you should start taking this seriously?
Stop being myopic and partisan. My position is censorship and oppression is going to cause violent blowback, as it has repeatedly in the past and will continue to. Ergo, my prescriptive relief is to allow the idiots to peacefully assemble, hold politicians and law enforcement accountable for preserving the peace and interdicting violence as is their fucking job (like they didn't in Charlottesville), vociferously peaceably counter-protest and denounce black bloc bullshit, and get out the fucking vote.
No, McVeigh was a full-on Turner Diaries [https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/how-the-turner-diaries-changed-white-nationalism/500039/]-worshiping lunatic. Gun rights was but one plank of a whole platform of crazy radicalized bullshit, and OKC was directly modeled after The Organization's bombing of the FBI headquarters to kickstart La Resistance. The whole thing was meticulously planned, beginning to end, right down to target selection, method [https://www.adl.org/education/resources/backgrounders/turner-diaries], even the date [https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution/battles-of-lexington-and-concord], as a targeted message and call to action.
It was done in retaliation for Ruby Ridge and Waco [https://www.history.com/news/how-ruby-ridge-and-waco-led-to-the-oklahoma-city-bombing]. Ruby Ridge being the result of a botched attempt by the ATF to flip Randy Weaver, and Waco being the result of botched opsec by ATF to serve a search warrant that culminated in a botched assault by the FBI because Janet Reno was afraid of political blowback rather than simply wait the Branch Davidians out. Gun rights was just the tip of that goddamned iceberg.
That's why you don't censor or oppress shit. It makes you too mush-minded to add two and fucking two when "the opposition" is up to something, what they're really after, and how to stop it. See, I read Turner Diaries after OKC, because I wanted to understand what the fuck happened; I also had to re-read excerpts of it in undergrad because I was taking a grad-level class on the psychology and methodology of terrorism.
The "problem" with this is there are a not-insignificant number of brain-dead idiots out there who, like right-wingers of yesteryear with the Communist Manifesto, think that reading Turner Diaries, or the mere presence of Turner Diaries on bookshelves, somehow magically turns people into Nazis. Or, even having a base level of insight into the psychology and methods of right-wing extremists, means one must by definition be a Nazi. I don't play ball with that bullshit, because I'm unwilling to willfully suspend my own intellect and education to satisfy the atavistic urges of modern-day Robespierre wannabes dead-set on, escalating cycle of violence that never has in the entirety of human history, and never will, break the way they think.
Nazism is no more a political position than Isis and deserves no more than Isis is given. If they are not confiscating their bank accounts, outlawing their propaganda, taking down their websites and treating them like the terrorists they are, they are not treating them the same as they do Isis and they should be as they are even worse than Isis. They should be barred from holding any office, just as they see child molesters unfit for office.
The problem is treating them as a legitimate political position when they really are just terrorists at the core. Why should they be treated any different than Isis? white supremacist have carried out more attacks on US soil than all other groups combined and are a bigger threat. Treat them the same way and you remove their power. To promote, support, or fund Isis in any way will get you arrested in the US already. Treating white nationalists the same would change how this is viewed long term.
If this is not an effective way why are people now criminally and socially stigmatized for having sex with children when not that long ago it was a social norm? It wasn't all that long ago that if you were not married by the age of 16 you were already an 'old maid' and considered undesirable. This was considered their god given right by Christians in the US and very much a religious and political issue protected by the freedom of religion guaranteed in the constitution. How did they go about changing that eh? Oh yea they outlawed it and strictly enforced it because it is the most effective tool to do so. Use the right tool for the job for the best results.
Promoting, sharing and funding white nationalism should be treated no different than promoting, sharing and funding child porn.
EDIT: In addition, what could possibly be partisan about it? Threatening to come into your home and take you and your sleeping children and strip them of their citizenship and ship them off to a country you have never been before confiscating your property, life and everything you have known is a terroristic threat. Threating to come into your work and arrest you, kidnap you and strip you of your citizenship and ship you off to a nation you have never been before is a terroristic threat. Threatening to sterilize you and your family is a terroristic threat. If you resist any of this or defend yourself you will be killed. This should never be up for debate as a partisan issue. It is abusive and criminal and deserves to be treated as such. There is no part of being a white nationalist, white supremist or racist that should be considered a legitimate political stance or treated as such. By even being one, you are engaging in a terroristic threat of others due to their actual platform. There is no such thing as a " peaceful Nazi protest" because their very platform is an incitement of violence against others. Trying to remove rights and citizenship from other citizens is an incitement of violence in itself.
So what? If anything it's a mark of shame for the United States that one of their greatest accomplishments wasn't possible without the help of criminals. I'd rather have had Braun in prison or underground than Armstrong and Aldrin on the moon.Eacaraxe said:On the other hand, this never would have happened,
but I don't see too many people shedding tears over that. Sure as shit don't see any Antifa morons protesting any of the basically half the fucking city of Huntsville, AL, named after Wernher von Braun.
For some reason, all I know of that man is from the Tom Leher song that bears his name:PsychedelicDiamond said:So what? If anything it's a mark of shame for the United States that one of their greatest accomplishments wasn't possible without the help of criminals. I'd rather have had Braun in prison or underground than Armstrong and Aldrin on the moon.Eacaraxe said:On the other hand, this never would have happened,
but I don't see too many people shedding tears over that. Sure as shit don't see any Antifa morons protesting any of the basically half the fucking city of Huntsville, AL, named after Wernher von Braun.
Fuck me this guy would have had a field day with the past two decades if he was still alive.
So, you think we should be fighting Nazism the same way we fight radical Islamist terror, huh?Lil devils x said:
So, Guano Bay [https://www.nytimes.com/topic/destination/guantanamo-bay-naval-base-cuba], great success and totally justified.
Not that we have to export prisoners [https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/30/world/meast/iraq-prison-abuse-scandal-fast-facts/index.html], also great success.
Wow. Such success. Much genital torture and castration. Very sodomy. [https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/salim-v-mitchell-complaint]
That sure sounds familiar...where I might have heard that before?
Sure is [https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-15124114/islamist-cleric-anwar-awlaki-killed-in-yemen]! We even went in for the bonus round [https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/3/yemen_jeremy_scahill_advocates_question_success] on that one!
You think the best way to fight a Nazi is to be one?
First of all GITMO should be closed. There is not and never has been an excuse to have it open. We are discussing how they treat US citizens who have participated in terrorist activity, and they do in fact seize their bank accounts and arrest them, as they should because funding terrorism is illegal.Eacaraxe said:So, you think we should be fighting Nazism the same way we fight radical Islamist terror, huh?Lil devils x said:
So, Guano Bay [https://www.nytimes.com/topic/destination/guantanamo-bay-naval-base-cuba], great success and totally justified.
Not that we have to export prisoners [https://www.cnn.com/2013/10/30/world/meast/iraq-prison-abuse-scandal-fast-facts/index.html], also great success.
Wow. Such success. Much genital torture and castration. Very sodomy. [https://www.aclu.org/legal-document/salim-v-mitchell-complaint]
That sure sounds familiar...where I might have heard that before?
Sure is [https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-15124114/islamist-cleric-anwar-awlaki-killed-in-yemen]!
You think the best way to fight a Nazi is to be one?
THIS is the white nationalist platform FYI and yes that is a terroristic threat and should be taken as such.
What exactly are you trying to argue here? Trump's illegal treatment of immigrants is not even what we are discussing here. Trump is already in violation of numerous court orders on what he has been doing on the border and why he has his homeland security team evacuating. No, I don't think the best way to fight a Nazi is to be one, Trump should be arrested and charged for his crimes. I am in no way condoning any of that. Are you suggesting that because the members of the US government that should be charged with crimes did something bad that we now have to allow Nazis to do the same? That is absurd. I never suggested they wave due process or strip US citizens of citizenship. They should instead actually pass laws, give them due process and hold them accountable in a court of law. That is not " being a Nazi", it is holding people accountable for threatening citizens because ones right to not be threatened by Nazis in their own nation outweighs the Nazis right to threaten to violently remove people from their own nation.
You act like the ONLY way to enforce the law is to break the law. No, that is far from the case. Law enforcement =\= Waco siege. Law enforcement =\= GITMO. You are taking the worst human rights violations and trying to present that as the only way to enforce the law and that is far from true. Not all US citizens making terroristic threats are sent to GITMO mind you, they are sitting in US prisons.
Yeah, Lil devils x, next you'll be driving on an autobahn and eating sugar. Or not eating sugar, can't remember which one Hitler did.
As an aside, that was one of the reasons that the US had separate competing rocket programs run by different branches of the military. As well as the usual inter-service lack of co-operation, not everyone wanted to be working for a former Nazi. The Soviets (with some less important Nazi scientists they'd caught) did quite well during the early space race in part because of this. So they formed NASA, stuck everyone together and told them to play nice with the Nazis. Probably helps that the V-1s and V-2s only hit European civilians, if US civilians had been targeted (somehow), attitudes would have been different.PsychedelicDiamond said:
Same thing I've argued from the beginning, you're just not letting it sink in.Lil devils x said:
You can't fight ideas using the coercive force of the state. That further radicalizes people and makes the very violence you proclaim to stand against more likely to happen, and more destructive when it does. It fosters cyclical violence, and public cries for greater state power and restrictions on basic civil liberties, to stop further violence.
This isn't even a case of whether the ends justify the means. The means prevent the ends.
And considering I'm discussing events that occurred between 2001-2016, with the sole exception of the killing of Nawar al-Awlaki, either Trump borrowed Obama's magical time machine or you're throwing red herrings.
Yes you are. Assault and battery are already criminal offenses. Murder is already a criminal offense. Coercion and credible threats already are criminal offenses. Racketeering and providing material support to terrorist organizations are already criminal offenses. So, what more laws and additional means of enforcing them do you suggest, and how do they not run afoul of the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Amendments when (at least I believe) the laws we already have run afoul of them?
No, what you want to do is regulate speech, not hold the government accountable for enforcing laws that already exist.
No, I'm acting like demagogues, given near-unlimited power and little if any oversight or accountability, have an overwhelming tendency towards violating human rights. This should be quite obvious, considering we're discussing the definitive case example in the entirety of human history, of what happens when demagogues are given unlimited power, no oversight, and no accountability.
I actually agree. Federal law enforcement decided to cowboy up like it was a fuckin' John Wayne movie, enabled by a Presidential administration more worried about political blowback than faithful execution of the law, with precious little oversight or accountability.
I actually agree. A neoconservative Presidential administration was given carte blanche in the wake of a terror attack it allowed to happen, and committed to the most sweeping set of erosions to fundamental civil liberties in American history, and the most egregious war crimes since Vietnam. All to thunderous applause on the part of the American people.
Are you failing to see a trend here, or are you just conveniently ignoring it?
Yeah, not all do. Some are hit by drones, and others get SEAL Team Six sent to shoot them.